me lying?

You don't agree with what is said below?

"The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people (americans included) without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions." "

Today, oct 15 2007, another person vanished after he said he supports bin laden's claim that 'bush has to be removed from office or shot in the head'.

Soon there will come a moment that you no longer dare to say what you really think about the government, because it's considered anti american. Bush said 'you are either with us or against us', and if you don't say you are with the governement you are an enemy.

why waste your time arguing with him?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :thumbsup

I agree.

We have all of these laws to protect people, while the other side has no problems killing innocent people - including their own. These people don't fight by the same rules we do. So it's time to change the rules.

As for Americans being jailed under this law, I find it highly unlikely. Unless your caught driving around in a truck full of explosives or caught in Syria at a terrorist tranining camp I'm pretty sure you'll be okay.

yes. this is a lie. After all, if the ACLU told the truth, they couldn't keep scaring your kind into contibuting.:winkwink:

so naive

That boogie man got ya'll Americans freaked out. Willing to let them take away your freedoms/rights just so they can "protect you". Fucked up. Must be scary times in The USA.

Mmm... for an issue that is more relevant than stupid party politics within the US - it's sad and pathetic to see there remains obvious division.

Keep it up and the spiral gets faster as the downwards trend progresses...

Issues such as the removal of habeas corpus and other rights granted under the constutition come above all political parties. Habeas corpus alone is fundamental to all democratic nations and is part of what distinguishes a nation from a police state. Think on it.

Living proof that propaganda is alive, kicking and working just fine - "we are under threat".

They couldn't protect a ham sandwich from flies :pimp

Stupidest post goes to........ :1orglaugh

Unfortunatly I seen this on 3 different news channels 2 days ago :mad:

The Day King George Was Crowned...

Habeas corpus and other rights US citizens just lost today

https://youtube.com/watch?v=igycXBseoAg

Ask the Japanese who were held in camps what they feel about giving up democracy and due process.

It doesn't matter whether you think Bush would abuse this power. It is a matter of whether any future President will. He has given the power to any future leader to lock up anyone for any reason. Seriously, how can you call yourself a true conservative and be for big government like this?

Your argument is weak. The issue is not whether they belong in jail, the argument is whether they should get due process. I am more than confident that our judicial system would put enemies of the US in jail.

this is a lie.

because I'm smart enough to not be gulled by the scare tactics of the left.
They've completely convinced you that ANY attempt at self preservation is an attack on civil liberties.

I'm just smarter than that.

our judicial system has no place in war and never did. We always knew that.............until now.

I'd throw in a comment in addition to your post.... What leader of any democracy has the rights to assume the level of power being claimed under the Military Commissions Act?

There is not one democratic country on this planet which passes powers to any leader to remove/amend/warp laws, flippantly change the constitution and give a leader a blank check book to engage, at his or her discretion, in eg removing habeas corpus and defining levels of "legal" torture which may be inflicted on others for whatever reason.

Stemming from the principle of habeas corpus, there are many laws which were passed and based on the foundation of habeas corpus - these laws are obviously now clearly in conflict.

Sadly we now have a rogue nation, a police state, which is in violation of several treaties - and the Geneva Convention. Prior to this day, almost all international on rights-related issues which have be ratified by the US, are not in practice, available for use by US citizens as a method of protection, but hindered by an obstacle course of Federal law. Even now, US children are not afforded the same rights as all children globally (excepting Somalia) under the Convention of the Rights of the Child.

Only my :2 cents: - Just find it utterly stunning that a nation has had so very little to say for itself in standing up for rights and the Constitution on which the country was founded - but sat back an watched while these rights have been removed from them.

Our executive branch has no place in our judicial system. We do have this thing called "checks and balances" that seems to have worked quite well for the past couple centuries. I prefer to abide by the fourteenth amendment and allow our courts to determine what the definition of it meant. Writing this law that is basically a backdoor and loophole around our judicial system is not only a slap in the face to them, but the constitution.

The left has nothing to do with this. I am far from being a liberal and consider myself a libertarian. I believe in small government and our rights (something Republicans used to believe in). I am against any form of torture and believe we should set the standard for the world. I believe in the things that the Republican party used to believe in. The funniest part about you attacking the left is how much George Bush governs like a liberal. :winkwink:

ahhh yes, the imaginary lost rights. you gotta love the leftists. to be one you've got to imagine that 9/11 didn't happen, the iraqis were our friends, muslims don't kill people all over the world, and we keep losing our rights.

sorry, two branches of our government disagree with your position.:winkwink:

That is fine, unfortunately those two branches don't interpret the constitution and should have no say on the matter.

Everything on Wikipedia is contested by some moron. The great thing about Wikipedia is that anyone can edit the content. And the biggest problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can edit the content. Wikipedia is incredibly unreliable as a source of research information.

Havent you been paying attention? The Supreme Court has been stacked with his peers. They are the ones that elected him, for fucks sake. And the Dems arent gonna win big in Novenmber because everyone is just as tired of thier bullshit as they are the GOP bullshit. And therein lies the problem. We dont have a country, a government or a nation anymore, what we have is a pile of bullshit.

Actually, that's not true. The supreme court ruled against Bush on this matter. This is why he had to create this loophole.

If you take the ACLU's spin on politics you've got serious issues.

my 2 cents

mish-mash ....


Bunch of elements, non-corolated, put together to prove a point ...

Iraqis were youre friends .. after all, that is why you went and spent 300 billion+ to liberate them....
9/11 happened, Oklahoma also, the Unibomber also, the Chicago bomber also ... shit happens.
Muslims kill people, so does christians and jews ... Your point ?

Back to my Chateau Margaux 1985.

Schweeet!

You can be picked up at the mall as an enemy combatant. (if you don't have your wallet with your id in it)

and under this new law...you have no way of hiring a lawyer to prove you're actually a u.s. citizen

and no one in your family will be able to find out where you are....because its top secret

its a bad law

You can be picked up at the mall as an enemy combatant. (if you don't have your wallet with your id in it)

and under this new law...you have no way of hiring a lawyer to prove you're actually a u.s. citizen

and no one in your family will be able to find out where you are....because its top secret

its a bad law

sick sick stuff i tell you...

but its to protect us.. lol

Theres nothing in this act that our exisiting laws dont already cover that is going to help stop terrorists.. unless they use it in such a fashion it would leave it wide open for abuse

KRL quite true, but the problem is that the Republications have put in 2 fresh new Superme court judges (in the last 2-3 years) who are basicly going to agree to most things the Republication Govenment come up with, specially choosen for there hardline ways. Republications have control of who goes into the courts to decide if there laws are just or not. That leaves alot of room for corruption.

I hope your right cause this was a HUGE grab for power and if it goes thru the shit they could do in the future is basicly anything they like.

Matt

One of my favorite quotes of all time

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton

So, any of you sheeple ready to take your country back yet? Its time to shoot the fuckers. Its PAST TIME to shoot the fuckers.

this doesn't apply to US citizens... at all. it's not a constitutional issue.. its scope is well defined. so obviously, your citizenship would have to be confirmed before you could be detained under this act. but you guys just keep on making dumb, unprovable arguments about bush being hitler and taking over the world since it gives you comfort and makes you feel better about yourselves./... if your arguments are going to be based on the US government snatching people up under this act that aren't citizens.. then the law itself becomes irrelevant to your arguments.

it amazes the shit out of me that non US citizens are soooooooooo concerned and quick to point out that the US is just falling apart and becoming a "police state" yet the examples of this are non-existent... but you'll surely tell us all that its just a matter of time.

heres some news for some of you fucking idiots. The Patriot Act... you know... the end of america as we know it according to you fucktards... has done NOTHING to change anyones lives.

everyone loves democracy until they disagree with the results... then its a conspiracy, its unfair and the world is coming to an end. in all these dumb, retarded and usually baseless arguments, everyone forgets one thing. that people want security. the threats are real... and its been proven time and time again that treating terrorism as a criminal issue is pointless and innefective.

The US is a very young country. It still needs to go through its dictatorship stage. All part of growing up....

Not very good news!!!! Idiots

Just like all the other bills that get pushed through,

I am so sick of all of this crap.

While I do agree with you on the fact it doesn't really have an impact on US citizens, it also doesn't define the rights they do have. The issue at hand though is the fact that this act is a slap in the face to the Supreme Court that ruled that the fourteenth amendment applies to everyone, not just US citizens. People are more upset that they are not abiding by the courts decision and instead finding a loophole.

As for the Patriot Act, it's impossible to say how it's effected anyone. It's like saying that it's OK for a peeping Tom to sit outside the window and stare at your wife changing as long as she doesn't know it's happening.

Finally, I don't think anyone is saying that they don't want security. They are saying that they want a form of checks and balances in place so that powers can't be abused by someone. There is a reason that the officer who arrests doesn't hand you your verdict in court. The checks and balances system has assured this government to run efficiently for centuries. Eliminating that is a dangerous proposition.

What do you have against due process for anyone?

congrats to all the winners... :/

it also doesn't specify food handling and preparation, and sanitary guidelines for fast food restuarants.

maybe i am just attracted to the sillyness of these discussions... i suspect that I would be wasting my time by pointing out again, that it specifically states that it does not apply to US Citizens in any way, shape or form... therefore making the issue of US Citizens and "rights" a moot point in this discussion.

OK.. will pick ya up on that one :winkwink:

A nation claiming to be an example of democracy in action does not make habeas corpus inaccessible and does not engage in imprisonment without due legal process.

The leadership of a democratic nation does not even talk about what degree of torture they personally find acceptable - in this instance torture is permissible to the point of organ failure and possible death. This level of stupidity is a violation of the Geneva Convention - whether the admin thinks so or not.

The leadership of a democratic nation does not have the need to pass laws protecting their own asses against possible prosecution for war crimes, crimes against humanity or other international treaties that nation has already ratified.

One definition of a police state is where citizens are spied upon, habeas corpus is non existant and torture has a level of acceptabily - all these elements are now part of the US.

Mmm.. Hell.. I could go on forever - whats the point? The US is now a nation which has lost any moral highground it may have possessed at one time. Mixing an incestous combination of religon and adopting a moral highground while not permitting all freedoms enjoyed by all other western industrialized countries and engaging in "allowable torture" is just taking the piss.

Why bother? Simply because this is only the start of history repeating itself yet again. If avoidable, no nation needs to go thru a term of insanity which will have a heavy price both on a domestic level and internationally.

Even attempting to defend the newly introduced legislation is total absurdity.

As you said... it's only a matter of time and police state is a more than reasonable term which would be applicable.

like most others with a passionate opinion on the subject, you are confusing hype and rhetoric of "the american dream" and "worlds greatest democracy" with reality when its convienent, just to support an argument. they was never a point in history where the hy and reality of both were reconciled with each other and never will be.

all that has ever changed is perceptions. it was the worlds greatest democracy that has as constitution stating that all men are created equal, while supporting slavery. no one cared what the reality was on the ground as they were escaping poverty, persecution or whatever the fuck they wanted to get away from. nothing you can say about today, wasn't true 100 - 150 - 200 years ago.

democracy is what it is. of all the people crying wolf, one fact always remains, the majority of people support the laws being passed and the general position on the need to more effectively combat new threats of this century. so if the people support it............. then it would seem that everything is functioning as it should be.

Things keep going the way they are and the brush they'll paint him with will be covered with hot tar.

The only rhetoric comes from the current admin - 24 hours a day.

Hype and reading legislation were never words that blended well.

Reality is the way it is - read, police state.

You have already lost prime elements of the Constitution covering very basic rights. At what point would will you stand up and consider your own position when you realise than in a very short timespan, major elements of the Constitution are now gone and work done by many previous Presidents has been demolished and where the US is the most "unfree" and despised nation in the western world?

Sheep go to the slaughter very easily - but along the way they will have a debate about domestic party politics, gay marriage and abortion etc. The removal of elements of the Constitution are far above all these subjects. The US just let one administration change their nation for them without saying Booo! and some even try to justify the removal of due process and torture with claims it was "necessary". You remember where that happened elsewhere last century?

No "terrorist" could have done a better job of spreading fear and limiting individual freedoms than the current admin - awesome achievement :pimp


Hello?? Anybody there? Wakey wakey time :winkwink:

the current administration? bush? you are telling me to wake up? do you need a history lesson on the USA? slavery, child labor, womens rights, civil wars, McCarthy hearings, J Edger Hoover, Cold War, Kennedy assisination(s), Vietnam, Civil Rights etc etc etc etc all while being touted world wide as the home of the free, land of the brave. all while droning on and on and on and on about the American Dream. ... all while reminding the world that the constitution and this democracy is the best in the world?

you hate bush. thats all. and thats all thats changed... a president got elected twice that you can't stand... pushing through ideas that you are opposed too... with the support of the people, which annoys you. i did not vote for bush and i think he's an idiot, but when it comes to security, there is a real problem here that you don't have to deal with while you hide from the world and the worlds real problems in costa rica.

i can't believe people (mostly non-citizens) would be saying the US has become a police state. what was the USA during the Cold War, vietnam eroa or McCarthy era and before? DisneyLand? this country is what it is... and it still is what it always was.

:disgust :disgust

who is afraid? me? or paranoid people? bush haters? liberals talking constantly about a "police state" is not spreading fear? ... or is does that fall under the usual "the end justifies the means" liberal exclusion?

i haven't heard or seen on person that expressed some fear about terrorism... EVER. i haven't heard anyone say "i'm really worried" or "i'm afraid" EVER. at worst, i have seen and heard people complain about airport security, while almost always adding "better to be safe than sorry" or some comment to that effect.

Tut tut - back to the boring old political cliches, labels and obsessions about domestic party politics - it never fails :winkwink: