Does my 9/11 stance offend you?

[Halcyon]

Thoughts On The Anniversary of 9/11

(NOTE: These are thoughts about the post-9/11 world, NOT about the lives that day. I respect the emotions surrounding the event, but want to share a different stance)

There have always been wars.
There has always been treachery and corruption.

The law of nature is that every living thing must strive CONSTANTLY to stay alive. Death and violence is the setting in which all life takes place.

It is hard, but we need to accept that.

And then we need to make reasonable efforts to stay safe, alive, and out of the path of violence.
But do not start believing that it is possible to create a world free of risk.
And CERTAINLY do not start to believe that you can use force to try to stop violence long-term.

As MLK said, ?Wars are poor chisels to carve out a peaceful future.?

One man?s terrorism is another man?s freedom fighting. And since I can never understand what it would be like to see my brother killed at 12 in Somalia or my Father shot in Iraq, I can do little more than theorize about the personal perspectives of America?s ?enemies.?

But I know of no country righteous enough to declare their murder to be fair, and another?s? to be unfair.

In fact, that attitude only ensures that fighting will never cease.

So you can choose to live in a state of constant fear?

Or you can re-calibrate your world view, accept that there are always risks, and then try to enjoy the Now as much as possible.

To live in fear is to trade your present for a worst-case scenario of the future.
Think about that.
What reasonable things can you do to avoid violence?
Do those things and then turn off FOX News.
We are in no more danger than we ever have been.
That is to say, we are ALWAYS in danger.
So re-adjust baseline, and then get back to living.

Living, loving, laughing, remembering, and mourning.

[Digipimp]

doesnt offend me its just laughable

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Digipimp

doesnt offend me its just laughable

Do you think we are any less safe than we were before the attack?

Do you think you are safer due to the post 9/11 actions of the US?

Do you think we have benefited from the Patriot Act, etc?

Or do you mean it is laughable to think we are not Just in our killing?

[mattz]

may have to read it again to fully understand but a good post you got there

[jimthefiend]

God damn, Hippys crack me up.

[psili]

Do you think we are any less safe than we were before the attack?
- feel less safe

Do you think you are safer due to the post 9/11 actions of the US?
- ibid.

Do you think we have benefited from the Patriot Act, etc?
- no. they were probably doing that shit before and used 9/11 as an excuse to officially put it on the books.

Or do you mean it is laughable to think we are not Just in our killing?
- my view's inherently hypocritical, but i think all the intolerant should be be wiped from the face of the planet.

[butterflybucks]

I like taking my shoes of at the airport! It lets my wigglies breath before a long flight!

[RayVega]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Thoughts On The Anniversary of 9/11

(NOTE: These are thoughts about the post-9/11 world, NOT about the lives that day. I respect the emotions surrounding the event, but want to share a different stance)

There have always been wars.
There has always been treachery and corruption.

The law of nature is that every living thing must strive CONSTANTLY to stay alive. Death and violence is the setting in which all life takes place.

It is hard, but we need to accept that.

And then we need to make reasonable efforts to stay safe, alive, and out of the path of violence.
But do not start believing that it is possible to create a world free of risk.
And CERTAINLY do not start to believe that you can use force to try to stop violence long-term.

As MLK said, ?Wars are poor chisels to carve out a peaceful future.?

One man?s terrorism is another man?s freedom fighting. And since I can never understand what it would be like to see my brother killed at 12 in Somalia or my Father shot in Iraq, I can do little more than theorize about the personal perspectives of America?s ?enemies.?

But I know of no country righteous enough to declare their murder to be fair, and another?s? to be unfair.

In fact, that attitude only ensures that fighting will never cease.

So you can choose to live in a state of constant fear?

Or you can re-calibrate your world view, accept that there are always risks, and then try to enjoy the Now as much as possible.

To live in fear is to trade your present for a worst-case scenario of the future.
Think about that.
What reasonable things can you do to avoid violence?
Do those things and then turn off FOX News.
We are in no more danger than we ever have been.
That is to say, we are ALWAYS in danger.
So re-adjust baseline, and then get back to living.

Living, loving, laughing, remembering, and mourning.

I'm with you 100%,I have no reservations about saying that.

[Degenerate]

Not offensive, you are just have a hug-a-tree hippy view.

[DJ Slave to Classic Rock]

Halcyon I think your views are good. Thank you.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

I too support peace through peaceful means, moral persuasion, and passive resistance.

"The pioneers of a warless world are the young men and women who refuse to fight."

- Albert Einstein

Just got back from placing some flowers in front of my local fire station...

ADG Webmaster (former Petty Officer, United States Navy, 6 years)

[2HousePlague]

Hal, it is your capacity for detachment that makes you a freak and a genius. The trouble is, to those who don't share your gift, this reads like disaffected, objective logic -- something necessarily contemptible to the grieving heart.

2hp

[dakota1358]

Your views are your own to believe as you wish.Your views offend me no more than my views should offend you

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Degenerate

Not offensive, you are just have a hug-a-tree hippy view.

I guess it has become so hard to be considered patriotic while not acknowledging the IMMINENT THREAT of TERROR. Being a patriot is much more than supporting our role as world police.

[JayDeeZee]

Well put!

[OG LennyT]

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

trouble is this reads like disaffected, objective logic -- something necessarily contemptible to the grieving heart.

hence why he asked if his views offended, dont suck up

I just see it as another opinion and everyone's entitled, but there are good ideas there.

[Harley Girl]

Hal.... i agree with you 100%.... there will always be danger no matter from where or what level...

great post!

[tASSy]

i don't feel more safe, but i feel as though more fear has been thrown at me by our government than ever before - so i choose to ignore it. stop trying to scare me into not flying. yes, i'll follow your pain-in-the-butt rules to get on a flight, but don't think they make me feel more safe - i just choose not to be afraid of getting on the flight in the first place.

i agree with your tree-hugging hippie views, i'd rather hug a tree than be blown to bits by bomb that i worried about for years before it ever came because the media and gw 'told me to'. if i'm meant to explode, well then, i'm meant to explode. i like people who think for themselves, if your thoughts bring you to hugging a tree, i'm cool with that.

what's the opposite of being offended? i'm that - about you using your brain and thinking for yourself.

[Brujah]

Nicely said, Hal.

[2HousePlague]

Originally Posted by dvd316

hence why he asked if his views offended, dont suck up

I just see it as another opinion and everyone's entitled, but there are good ideas there.

One of the most disturbing changes to "regular life in America" to my eyes, post-911, is the fact that Americans ourselves are now so violently divided. If you have the wrong opinion on this issue in some places of the US, you're gonna get your fucking ass kicked.

2hp

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

Hal, it is your capacity for detachment that makes you a freak and a genius. The trouble is, to those who don't share your gift, this reads like disaffected, objective logic -- something necessarily contemptible to the grieving heart.

2hp

I understand how hard to detach when you have been smacked. But I'm trying to learn from this dude who said, "Let 'em smack your other cheek, too." ;)

[spunkmaster]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I guess it has become so hard to be considered patriotic while not acknowledging the IMMINENT THREAT of TERROR. Being a patriot is much more than supporting our role as world police.

Here's the issue though.

The group that attacked us on 9/11/01 is behind 22 of the 23 wars
currently going on in the world today.

They're fucking locusts who would take your pink slippers and lifestyle away from you in a heart beat if they could.

In fact, the US turned the other way several times through out the 90's and what did it bring us ?

9-11-01

The locusts need to be stomped and killed !

[2HousePlague]

I set 2 AAA batteries side-by-side on a rail at night on a hot porch downundah. Flash! Then I photochopped-in some towers and some fire.

2hp

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

Here's the issue though.

The group that attacked us on 9/11/01 is behind 22 of the 23 wars
currently going on in the world today.

They're fucking locusts who would take your pink slippers and lifestyle away from you in a heart beat if they could.

In fact, the US turned the other way several times through out the 90's and what did it bring us ?

9-11-01

The locusts need to be stomped and killed !

Very intersting perspective. Any urls for more info on the group and how they are behind all the conflicts?

[Halcyon]

double post

[notabook]

[leedsfan]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

Here's the issue though.

The group that attacked us on 9/11/01 is behind 22 of the 23 wars
currently going on in the world today.

They're fucking locusts who would take your pink slippers and lifestyle away from you in a heart beat if they could.

In fact, the US turned the other way several times through out the 90's and what did it bring us ?

9-11-01

The locusts need to be stomped and killed !

you do mean Bush right?

[bvds]

nice posts and no offense taken

[Herb Kornfield]

It would be nice if our generation as a whole planet of people was the one generation that said enough of this war/terror/anger/killing shit, Let's try on peace for a while and see how it looks on us.

The progress that we would make as a united people would be mind blowing if we all threw in together and said, lets do it. Think of the things that could be eradicated:

-AIDS
-Cancer
-Diabetes
-Hunger
-Illiteracy
-and the common cold

To me, it just makes more sense to try to make things work out right than to think of who can I blow up next since my imaginary friend is better than yours....

Just give peace a chance, its sexier than war.

[REßEL]

Actually we're safer than we've ever been. Health care, standard of living, etc etc all contribute to us living longer healthier lives. We don't have to live expecting a good percentage of our children to be dead within their first year of life. Or losing wives/mothers before they're 35. We don't have to worry if we get a simple infection or fever.

But instead of being happy in our less-worrying lives. We create more fears to replace them. Whether those fears are founded or not. Crime, terrorism and even dust mites are bigged up into more of a threat to us than they actually are.

It seems we can't be happy as a species unless we have threats to worry about, whether real or imagined. (not even going to get into the fear/control angle of politics and religion who play on our fears).

I for one choose not to fear too much, and enjoy my journey through life until my time comes.

[OG LennyT]

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

One of the most disturbing changes to "regular life in America" to my eyes, post-911, is the fact that Americans ourselves are now so violently divided. If you have the wrong opinion on this issue in some places of the US, you're gonna get your fucking ass kicked.

America has always been like that. It is human condition that makes it possible, not some terrorist act.

[betabomb]

constant war always forever the end

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by REßEL

Actually we're safer than we've ever been. Health care, standard of living, etc etc all contribute to us living longer healthier lives. We don't have to live expecting a good percentage of our children to be dead within their first year of life. Or losing wives/mothers before they're 35. We don't have to worry if we get a simple infection or fever.

But instead of being happy in our less-worrying lives. We create more fears to replace them. Whether those fears are founded or not. Crime, terrorism and even dust mites are bigged up into more of a threat to us than they actually are.

It seems we can't be happy as a species unless we have threats to worry about, whether real or imagined. (not even going to get into the fear/control angle of politics and religion who play on our fears).

I for one choose not to fear too much, and enjoy my journey through life until my time comes.

well said

[spunkmaster]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Very intersting perspective. Any urls for more info on the group and how they are behind all the conflicts?

Sure:

http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv2.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/musl...conflicts.html
http://www.uga.edu/islam/jihad.html

[2HousePlague]

Originally Posted by dvd316

America has always been like that. It is human condition that makes it possible, not some terrorist act.

Yes and no. You could cite the civil unrest of the sixties or abolition or a thousand other lesser causes of "I'm going to kill those colors on sight" syndrome from American history, but those were at least about LOCAL shit. If you were an African-American then/there, your causes for concern and outrage were real, right there in your face, every day. Or maybe you're gay, or maybe you're Latino or an Emo or just ugly -- or maybe you're just the fella who hates one of the above. In eah case, there is an inter-personal reality that the people involved have to deal with, whichever side of the tension they are on. It INVOLVES them. They can't escape it. But I see this as fundamentally different somehow. This... this HATE is operating at a different level than I think I've seen before. It's very abstract. Think about it... this is just about a difference of opinion, an idea -- no, more accurately (more basically), it is about whether you are angry and whether you are directing that anger in a general direction to the EXTERIOR of your experience.

Somebody smart probably once said "Attacks are specific. Defense, however, must be generalized..."

I am worried about the unprecdented generality and non-specificity of our defense. It's only because we can find no objects for it to operate on that we turn to each other, as enemies. Consider the fate of an America that is "at war" within itself and in a GENERAL STATE OF DEFENSE towards the rest of the world... ???

2hp

[Digipimp]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Do you think we are any less safe than we were before the attack?

Do you think you are safer due to the post 9/11 actions of the US?

Do you think we have benefited from the Patriot Act, etc?

Or do you mean it is laughable to think we are not Just in our killing?

I actually think we're safer today than ever before, but that doesnt mean that we're safe, just safer than before. I don't think thanks for that goes to George Bush, more so it goes to general awareness. But there is still so much to be done that hasn't been done to make us safer.

Violence is never the solution, but it's always part of the solution. You have to embrace all means to your end and be willing to use any of them in order to be effective.

I won't even go into the Patriot Act because I know there won't be one person here that has read the whole thing including myself, much less most of the people in congress so that's debating something that we don't have all the knowledge about which isn't that smart.

Killing is justified sometimes and so is violence whether you like it or not thats just reality. What's laughable to me is that you nearly miss the whole point. The masses of people don't care or know about what happens in most of the world. Religious fundamentalism and thinking that you are somehow smart enough to tell others how they should live their lives in the real enemy and that enemy is here and there. It's not a debate about if somehow a radical religious nut is sometimes justified.

[tASSy]

"if my answers frighten you, perhaps you should cease to ask scary questions."

it just seemed appropriate. i'm refreshed by a post on this board that isn't conspiracy theory or fear/hate-mongering. thanks again.

[quantum-x]

Originally Posted by psili

Or do you mean it is laughable to think we are not Just in our killing?
- my view's inherently hypocritical, but i think all the intolerant should be be wiped from the face of the planet.

Does this mean that you should be.. uh.. wait, nevermind.

[psili]

Originally Posted by quantum-x

Does this mean that you should be.. uh.. wait, nevermind.

Yea. Don't really know how to frame that viewpoint, cuz it includes myself in it.

*shrug*

[pocketkangaroo]

I think our society has been sucked in by fear on multiple levels. First, our government constantly fills our mind with fear as it is easier to rule over people with fear than it is to rule with no fear. Our government has proven to be incompetent on so many levels, which has caused them to use fear as a means of fooling the public and staying in power.

On top of that, we live in a society of ratings and television stations get more ratings from scaring the public with the next big potential threat than a story about the economy, public schools, or something else. It is easier to grab attention with big shiny graphics that say NEWS ALERT when someone leaves their purse on a plane and the city is evacuated.

I think the most interesting part of 9/11 in our society is how different it is treated than other situations. We lost thousands of lives on that day, and it was one of our nations worst days. We have started two wars now because of it, sacrificed thousands of young men and women, spent billions upon billions of dollars, and upset a majority of the world in the aftermath of 9/11.

Then I look at another tradedy, Katrina. We saw the loss of thousands of lives, we saw our country devestated moreso than on 9/11 (in a monetary sense), the loss of an entire major city, and yet we have done little to nothing in its aftermath. Have we completely reinforced the levies so that this will never happen again? Have we done everything in our power to ensure that events like this will never happen again? Have we setup our government to function completely different so that they can be more helpful in a time of crisis? My answer would be no.

I guess my stance on 9/11 is why certain disasters receive more preference than others. I think 9/11 has been used by politicians to not only instill fear, but to remain in power. My stance is that my life hasn't changed. I don't fear life anymore than I did before 9/11.

[IWantU_Jeff]

Doesnt offend me.
Not less safe or more safe now really.
Things will be put in place to stop things, & people will try & eventually get around them & they new rules & so on & so forth.. only natural.

I think the Govt uses allot of what happened against us though.. for sure.
Fear can be a great tool...

& no cant speak on brothers getting killed in somalia etc.. works the other way too tho, families killed here & there all the time.. everyone is always more alike than we all care to admit or see.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Digipimp

I actually think we're safer today than ever before, but that doesnt mean that we're safe, just safer than before. I don't think thanks for that goes to George Bush, more so it goes to general awareness. But there is still so much to be done that hasn't been done to make us safer.

Violence is never the solution, but it's always part of the solution. You have to embrace all means to your end and be willing to use any of them in order to be effective.

I won't even go into the Patriot Act because I know there won't be one person here that has read the whole thing including myself, much less most of the people in congress so that's debating something that we don't have all the knowledge about which isn't that smart.

Killing is justified sometimes and so is violence whether you like it or not thats just reality. What's laughable to me is that you nearly miss the whole point. The masses of people don't care or know about what happens in most of the world. Religious fundamentalism and thinking that you are somehow smart enough to tell others how they should live their lives in the real enemy and that enemy is here and there. It's not a debate about if somehow a radical religious nut is sometimes justified.

I appreciate your response.
And agree that I am not qualified to debate the Patriot Act (even if I beleive that the concept of "reduced personal freedoms for the sake of safety" is an important discussion.)

And while I agree that violence is reality (kinda the point I was trying to make), I disagree that response to violence must always include violence.

(And think Jesus would argue that killing is *not* "just a reality," too.)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by IWantU_Jeff

Doesnt offend me.
Not less safe or more safe now really.
Things will be put in place to stop things, & people will try & eventually get around them & they new rules & so on & so forth.. only natural.

I think the Govt uses allot of what happened against us though.. for sure.
Fear can be a great tool...

& no cant speak on brothers getting killed in somalia etc.. works the other way too tho, families killed here & there all the time.. everyone is always more alike than we all care to admit or see.

Someone wrote to me this morning something that stuck:

"...the victims of every single terrorist attack in the world are every bit as dead and every bit as missed and every bit as innocent as the victims of 9/11. Remember them today, too, and send your mourning vibes out to their families as well."

[Bama]

You ask if we're safe and I don't feel as though that is a valid way to express this particular concern.

We're rarely "safe" from anything. Heart disease and cancer are all "threats" to ones' safety and if you stand on any corner in Harlem and yell out "I got 20K in my pocket and nobody around here is man enough to take it from me" will surely (and quickly) learn just how "un-safe" you are in America and that threat comes by way of other Americans.

Complications to the analogy occur because of "reasonable expectations of safety". If you eat poorly all through your life or smoke, it's reasonable to expect that you may have to pay a price later on and that price may very well be your own life. It's also reasonable to expect your ass is going to get jacked if you stand on a corner and yell out that you have money in a depressed neighborhood.

It's not reasonable to expect that when you get onto an airplane that someone on board is going to try and crash it into a buillding or blow it up. It's not reasonable to go to work and expect an airplane to be flown into your building

Because of the events of 9/11 we have to expect it now - but it's not reasonable.

Islamic fascists hate you and everything you stand for but it goes much further than that. If Tassy stood opposed to everything you support - they'd hate her too.. let me rephase that... they DO hate her and wouldn't think twice before beheading you or her and showing the event to the world.

Diplomacy will *never* work with these people. You can't muddy the waters with words of fairness and diplomacy when the people you are opposed to have no concious - no qualms against killing a child to get their message heard and that message is simple enough...

Believe what they believe, do as their teachings say you should do or you should die.... and they're more than willing to kill you if you don't.

I do disagree with you when you say that long term violence doesn't solve problems. Though it sucks to have to go through the process, you'll never again see Germany trying to overtake Europe or Japan the South Pacific and yes, I know this is an over generalization but my point is a valid one.

You can't use diplomacy to get termites to stop eating your house - they don't understand and though it is simple destruction, they don't see it that way. You have to kill them or lose your house. Islamic facists are the same way.

It sucks because they're "humans with communication tools" so you *should" be able to reason with them but until you come to terms with the fact that reasoning or diplomacy just don't work - it'll continue to mess with you as to why we gotta' do what we gotta' do to "protect" our way of life - hell just our very lives.

That's my (coupon has a cash value of 1/20th of 1 cent)

[XMaster]

Originally Posted by jimthefiend

God damn, Hippys crack me up.

[Drake]

2HousePlague, you have an amazing writing style and insight.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Bama

You ask if we're safe and I don't feel as though that is a valid way to express this particular concern.

We're rarely "safe" from anything. Heart disease and cancer are all "threats" to ones' safety and if you stand on any corner in Harlem and yell out "I got 20K in my pocket and nobody around here is man enough to take it from me" will surely (and quickly) learn just how "un-safe" you are in America and that threat comes by way of other Americans.

Complications to the analogy occur because of "reasonable expectations of safety". If you eat poorly all through your life or smoke, it's reasonable to expect that you may have to pay a price later on and that price may very well be your own life. It's also reasonable to expect your ass is going to get jacked if you stand on a corner and yell out that you have money in a depressed neighborhood.

It's not reasonable to expect that when you get onto an airplane that someone on board is going to try and crash it into a buillding or blow it up. It's not reasonable to go to work and expect an airplane to be flown into your building

Because of the events of 9/11 we have to expect it now - but it's not reasonable.

Islamic fascists hate you and everything you stand for but it goes much further than that. If Tassy stood opposed to everything you support - they'd hate her too.. let me rephase that... they DO hate her and wouldn't think twice before beheading you or her and showing the event to the world.

Diplomacy will *never* work with these people. You can't muddy the waters with words of fairness and diplomacy when the people you are opposed to have no concious - no qualms against killing a child to get their message heard and that message is simple enough...

Believe what they believe, do as their teachings say you should do or you should die.... and they're more than willing to kill you if you don't.

I do disagree with you when you say that long term violence doesn't solve problems. Though it sucks to have to go through the process, you'll never again see Germany trying to overtake Europe or Japan the South Pacific and yes, I know this is an over generalization but my point is a valid one.

You can't use diplomacy to get termites to stop eating your house - they don't understand and though it is simple destruction, they don't see it that way. You have to kill them or lose your house. Islamic facists are the same way.

It sucks because they're "humans with communication tools" so you *should" be able to reason with them but until you come to terms with the fact that reasoning or diplomacy just don't work - it'll continue to mess with you as to why we gotta' do what we gotta' do to "protect" our way of life - hell just our very lives.

That's my (coupon has a cash value of 1/20th of 1 cent)

Good response!
And the termite comparrison is serious food for thought.

Although I would argue that US foreign policy has been the equivalent of years of smoking. As the "body" starts to become sick/shut down/succumb to disease, It is not as simple as conducting surgery to remove the damaged portion.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

"The pioneers of a warless world are the young men and women who refuse to fight."

- Albert Einstein

....... history is replete with examples where those that refuse to fight are slaughtered by those who want to fight.

[2HousePlague]

Originally Posted by Mike33

2HousePlague, you have an amazing writing style and insight.

Thanks, that means a great deal to me today.

2hp

[seeric]

our fear is the government's shroud of stealth.

they'll never let us forget. they need our fear to keep the machine running.

i am not afraid.

fuck gwb and co.