heywood

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0907061bukk1.html

Here we go again. It looks like they are starting to crack down, just as they promised...

chadknowslaw

"First they came for the communists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then, they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Martin Niemöller, a pastor in Germany before and during World War II

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D-man

"obscene videos for download or delivery in the U.S.. The videos depicted bukkake, fisting, and depictions of defecation, urination, and vomiting in conjunction with sex acts."

yeah no shit they arrested him - supprised he missed the bondage sex though -

Dvae

Fisting, bukkake, piss, scat. Nothing obscene there.
If you play with fire you get burned!

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chadknowslaw

If we as members of the adult industry do not support all forms of consensual adult expression, the fundamentalists will work to pick us off slowly by starting on the fringe. It is easy to attack the fringe porn and those producers have very little support from even within their own industry.

If you sit back and say "Oh shit that is disgusting! They DESERVE to go to jail for putting out that crap!" I can go down to the Bible Beater Fundamentalist Evangelical Jesus Joseph and Mary Apostolic Church and drag 10 people away from praising jesus to look at YOUR content and I guarantee I can get some of them to say "Oh my goodness that is disgusting! They DESERVE to go to jail for putting out that filth!"

And NOW the "they" in the sentence is no longer the hard core fetish producer but YOU and YOU really wish there could be a few others standing up for you.

I do not draw the line at what I find disgusting. I draw the line at protecting people from other people and I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If 100 adults want to get together and have a fisting, scat, piss, puking, bondage bukkake vidoe taped party then more power to them. I only draw the line when there is not continual, sober, informed consent from each and every person involved.

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Dvae

So you say you won't draw the line at some point.
How about animals, young kids and I mean young, how about dead bodies, suffocation, forced r*pe.

These are all Ok I guess.

Wiil you draw the line are are you too stupid to understand that there are limits to your activities

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pr0

thank you.....

same deal with gun control.....control one type of gun & the rest will fall

heywood

I agree with you 100%. I think it's disgusting as well, that's why I dont watch it / participate in it.

Actuallly he explained where he draws the line:

Which is what I believe in. As long as everyone involved is consentual, and of a good state of mind to make the decision, we should have nothing to say. Rape = not consentual. Children = Not consentual. Beast = Not consentual.

These are sex acts which have a victim. In a scat video shoot, the only victim is the carpet.

Ace_luffy

damn what's that....

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Boobzooka

Consenting adults? OK. Non-consenting/kids/animals? Not OK. The "line" should be simple to understand. And there's no grey area for a jury to define after the fact. Any other definition is dictating taste. And eventually someone is going to find what you promote to be going too far. Don't forget there are still communities in this country that would find gay porn and interracial porn more offensive than bestiality.

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chadknowslaw

I do not believe that children can give consent. I believe that we must have a bright blue line to define children, otherwise we would get caught up in a messy, subjective and error-ridden "maturity test". I am happy with that bright blue line drawn at a person's 18th birthday.

I do not believe that animals can give consent.

I do not believe that dead bodies can give consent.

Forced sex is not consensual sex.


I only draw the line when there is not consent. Consent must be continuous and not revoked. Those that enjoy bondage fantasies understand the need to have a "secret word" for when it is time to quit. Only sober and informed adults can give consent. An informed adult is an adult who knows what is going to happen and agrees to participate. A sober adult is an adult who is not under the influence of a substance that would cloud judgment.

There ARE limits. Those limits should be easily defined and should not impose upon the rights of consenting adults to express themselves in the privacy of their own homes and share their activities with other consenting adults that want to watch. Any standard that requires judging content on its goodness or badness is a standard that can be changed to make anyone or everyone a criminal.

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Rochard

I disagree with you.

We have the right to carry firearms. But we do not have the right to carry fully automatic M60 machine guns and such.

Do not lump me into the same group of people who do fisting and pissing. I will not defend these people.

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pussyluver

If one looks at whats generally available from most sponsors, it is common place to find bukkake and pissing content. The case could set a serious precedent for all in the industry.

Aas gross as some of the videos shipped may be, I suspect we as an industry should speak up in defence of this defendant.

The charges pertain to mailed items.

Wonder if the ACLU, FSC or other organizations plan to enter the case or file briefs?

Other acts such as fisting and scat I think have already been found obscene by the Federal Courts????

chadknowslaw

I don't care who you are that's damn funny!

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pussyluver

The complaint also includes allegations of downloaded content.

pussyluver

They watched this operation for a long time. Wonder how many of us are being investigated right now?

chadknowslaw

You must have missed the ominous meaning behind my earlier post. Read it again and see if you don't see some similarities:

"First they came for the communists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then, they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Martin Niemöller, a pastor in Germany before and during World War II


Now let me re-write it for you so it might apply to you:

"First they came for the scat producers, but I didn't speak up because I didn't produce scat videos. Then they came for the pissing producers, but I didn't speak up because I didn't make piss videos. Then they came for the bukkake producers, but I didn't speak up because I didn't produce bukkake videos. Then they came for the gay porn producers, but I didn't speak up because I didn't produce gay porn. Then, they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

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Ebola

That's pretty putrid rewrite of that quote. Unlikely that Niemöller would have agreed.

Dvae

I think everybody has heard the little story. It does not need to be rewritten to understand your implication.

Point is, would the avaerage american or normal human being find these acts obscene. A high percentage would.

Lets face it, porn in general is a taboo subject.
And thats before you bring on something this hardcore.
Try and find a jury who is not going to frown upon such acts.
Good Luck!

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Sarah_Jayne

One of my faveorite qoutes ever.

chadknowslaw

Whether you think my words are putrid or that the content that was the subject of the most recent indictment is putrid, I believe that the fringe producers are being targeted and if those prosecutions are successful, the targets will become more and more mainstream.

The current administration in the US does not want to make the world safe for mainstream porn. They want to eliminate porn altogether, so unless you sell bibles or guns [both in the favor of BushCompany right now] you could be on the target list.

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Sarah_Jayne

I believe the key phrase in what Chad said was "consensual adult expression".

Sarah_Jayne

have any cumshots on anything you promote?

Pleasurepays

This might come as a real shock to you... but i am going to let you in on a little secret. what he was selling was illegal. not only illegal in the US, but illegal in most of the civilized world. when you are selling something thats even illegal in Russia, you might stop and consider that it might not be a good thing to be selling from some stupid town in Florida named "Gods promised land, free of Sinners" or where ever the fuck they were. In fact, they pretty much ran down the checklist of what you should never sell under any circumstances and did it. Lets just be happy they didn't get the chance to branch out into CP which seemed to be their last unexplored market.

what you believe should be "ok" and what is obviously not "ok" as defined by very clear, black and white laws on the matter are two different things. an individual breaking the law in a clear and obvious way and seeing those laws enforced does not equate to some fantastic notion of a Nazi crackdown on freedom of speech.

Sarah_Jayne

The average American would tell a judge they found anal sex obscene. They would do the same to any form of gay porn. I don't get any thrill out of watersports or scat and infact the thought of scat and vomit makes me ill. However, why should it be illegal for two consenting adults to pee on each other if they so wish? What buisness is it of the government what bodily fluids consenting adults like to put on each other's body?

Dvae

'consensual' goes right out the window as soon as you take it out of the privacy of your own bedroom.

Personally I could care less what any body does except the kids and r*pe, once you tell me I have to accept it and even condone it thats where I have a problem with it.

Nothing good can come of it.
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E$_manager

nice words

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chadknowslaw

This is the problem! There is no real definition of "obscene". "Obscene" is what a randomly chosen group of 12 people think it is. Those 12 random people taken from rural Pennsylvania will probably be easily convinced a woman shoving her hand up another woman's ass, pulling out some shit and then licking it off her fingers is obscene. But take 12 randomly selected people from the Tenderloin district in San Francisco and I doubt all 12 would agree. 50 years ago 12 people taken from rural Pennsylvania would probably have no problem determining that licking pussy was so obscene the producer should be put in prison. Obscene is not a line that is crossed, it is a moving standard that can catch everybody at some point.

If we continue to accept that obscenity can be judged based on subjective feelings or how it turns our stomach vs. turns us on, then we will always be in danger of it being ourselves in the hot seat.

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tony286

Im sorry scat , pissing, fisitng have been no no for a longtime.There is nothing vague about those. I agree with Rochard.

Dvae

As I said in my previous post, when you try and shove it down my throat or you try to profit from it is where the problem comes.
Keep it behind closed doors between consenting adults...

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Webby

Oh sheesh..

Poor porn merchants can't publish movies with shit dripping all over, "talent" being pissed on, fisting and vomit spewing ... and this evokes a quote from Martin Niemöller??? Poor oppressed porn merchants - their rights are being removed.

The alleged "fetishes" have been illegal under obscenity laws in most countries for years. In almost four decades in the adult biz, I've never known one valid defense for shit (literally) - it's indefensible.

The accused in this case were never part of the adult entertainment business. He may as well have been trading snuff movies, child porn and rape content. It is blatantly obvious that the defendant was aware the material is illegal.

Nuff said - no time for trash, - they cause nothing but problems for the industry as a whole.

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Sarah_Jayne

Unless you go and join the site how is it being forced on you?

Pleasurepays

exactly.

welcome to democracy.

i dont agree with the views of the majority, but i am not so simple that i don't understand that its those views that will prevail. this is the best part of watching a bunch of idiots complain about the law in the US. a democracy functions as it should, the government panders to the will of the voters as it should and the minority, instead of actually doing something.... bitches and complains that the SS is coming to get them and drag them away in the night.

if only Stalin or Hitler or Mao were here... then we wouldn't have to worry about those pesky voters or democracy or the laws that are made which express the will of the people. we would just be told what we like and there would be no discussion and we could all go back to work at the button factory or coal mine and devote our lives to making plastic cups or shitty hats for the motherland.

watching pornographers complain about what should and shouldn't be legal is like watching a bunch of stoners argue for the legalization of marijuana. its silly and pathetic. there is a cruel irony to be found in watching the exact group of morons that people despise and want to distance themselves from, demand respect and exceptance for all they are hated for.

Dvae

Is this more sarcasm?

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chadknowslaw

Consenting adults who order videos of other consenting adults to watch in the privacy of their own home harms no one.

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tony286

excellent post also shit like this (no pun intented) gives the right more fire against actually. This kind of stuff can be held up as the reason to get rid of all porn . Also this after this they will come after us, vanilla porn is pretty safe on a federal level because to too hard to shock a jury in the time of nip/tuck.All the cases so far are all extreme because it gives them the gasp factor they need to win.

Webby

Hear ya Dvae.. tho it was never a specification under the law that "thou shalt not thrust it down my throat". The offense is obscene publication. The fact that it is "published" is the offense.

Sure, agree, whatever "consenting adults" do is their business - as long as they are not publishing obscene material for distribution.

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Ebola

How much meaningful "adult consent" can you get when you make movies with desparate third world country "actresses"?

How many of those actresses do you guys think enjoy this work and would do it if they weren't under duress, drug addicted, or mentally ill?

If two healthy, competent, adult people decide to do despicable things in their own private sphere, it's their business.

If you take advantage of desparate people and coax them into performing said despicable acts on film for the purpose of your enrichment it's a different thing altogether.

frank7799

Exactly. That´s makes the huge difference between adult entertainment and crime. To forbid other sexual activities is just to put up morals to law.

Webby

What has that to do with obscene publication??

The offence is obscenity on the part of the publisher. This has been very clear for decades and generally, the same standard exists in most countries - shit, rape, vomit, child porn, pissing is illegal. What word do you not understand?

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frank7799

The problem is that you can´t define the term "obcene". Obscene is what some people call obscene. And that´s why it´s a problem of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only exists if everybody can express himself and not only in the way a majority part of a society likes it.

Zarathustra

good stuff.

chadknowslaw

Please give me the citation of the law that states that scat, pissing or fisting is illegal.

I already know where the obscenity statutes are, and I know the "Miller Test" that applies "community standards" to determine if a depiction is obscene, but I have not come across a law that specifically prohibits these performances. The definition of obscenity itself is vague and does not prohibit specific activities such as scat.

My point is that the definition of "obscenity" is a moving standard. You never really know if you cross the line because you cannot know where the damn line is in the first place!
I believe that the only fair and constitutional place to put that line is at consensual activities between sober willing adults. Then, other adults that knowingly want to purchase the video and watch it in their own home, that is still consensual. It harms no one.
I am not advocating playing "Toilet Man 6" on the DVD system of an SUV as it is driven past the elementary school. I advocate the rights of adults to do adult activities in private.

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Webby

Ya hit the nail on the head Tony - stupidity by a minority provides the "food" to attack other areas. Would any prosecutor love to pull out the one scat or pissing video and highlight that with a jury instead of the other 5000 videos with oral sex activity?

Not sure if it applies in the US, but there can also be a "deliberate oversight" in cases in some countries where eg.. blowjob content can get wound in with more extreme content and then the lot becomes "illegal" - dangerous territory.

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chadknowslaw

Actually in the US we do have the right to possess otherwise obscene materials at home. That has not lead to what I think is the obvious conclusion that producing obscene material is constitutionally protected.

Shit, vomit and pissing all involve willing adults = consensual activities.

Rape and CP are not consensual because rape by definition is not consensual and children cannot give consent.

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tony286

Oh stop now if you are a lawyer you know what Im talking about. What are you his lawyer getting us ready for the donation drive lol.

Webby

Basically there have been certain standards for years - scat, pissing, torture, child porn, rape etc are clear-cut candidates for "obscenity". Anyone in the adult biz knows this from previous trials.

Sure, the flip side of the arguement can be vague - who defines what is obscene? Serveral law agencies give guidelines, some don't, and it's a matter for a jury to decide.

Only my - it's a matter of judgement and same as any print media editor would do in balancing his editorial content. Publishing a web site in the adult entertainment business has similarities - you either stand by what you publish and are willing to stand up court and defend this, or you are in the wrong business.

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chadknowslaw

No, I am not his lawyer, I am not associated with his lawyer and I don't practice criminal defense. I don't even know the guy. I am just frustrated with this goddam fundamentalist attitude in the US that wants to impose its moral views of what is right and wrong on the rest of the world.

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tony286

I would bet if obscenity was clearly defined none of the vague bullshit. People would still produce those things under the I can do whatever I want excuse, that is the battle cry in net porn.

tony286

being against scat is not fundamentalist lol Do you know 5 people that practice scat in their own sex lives, I dont know one and I know a ton of perverts lol .