The Machine

it can't be difficult - just a couple more lines of SQL code - check if value in age column in the CC database > 18 and problem is solved

spanky

It would seem inevitable. The US has restrictions on what can and cannot be published in both traditional media and on the internet. Minors aren't supposed to see x-rated movies or buy x-rated magazines. Why should an x-rated web site be any different?

What pornography 'is' has already been defined, internet pornography is no different than traditional pornography in my mind. Of course its defnition will always be changing with the social norms of the times and place but I don't see why it shouldn't apply to pornography on the internet as well as published media.

So yes, I do think that the US, UK, Canada, etc, etc, etc will all expect some manner of adult verification in order to access adult content on the internet. And frankly it sounds good to me. I don't have any children (knock knock on wood ;-) but if I did I wouldn't want them going to the store to buy adult magazines, renting porn movies or browsing porn web sites. A little tease? sure. Peeking at the cover of a saucy magazine off of the top rack? what the heck. A steamy 3 page tour? ok... adds spice to growing pains. Full hardcore midget gangbangs? er... are you over 18 yet?

I don't know if the existing AVS systems are right or wrong for the job. Probably better than nothing. I know that you don't need a credit card to get a CyberAge membership, they've got a mail-in option (send them a copy of your drivers license).

cheers

titmowse

"As long as I can email dirty pictures to a friend -- there's no way an AVS law is going to mean shit."

but realistically, how many pictures and video clips and hentai and can people trade in personal email? especially when it's so much easier to view it from some one elses' server? my god man! you're dealing in a product people want and always want. surely you can advertise it without giving away the store.

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The Machine

exactly

The Machine

and what's more - if it wasn't for 9/11 and all the terrorist bull going on, this would have happened by now. but it's not too late ;)

quiet

pretty much. however, the p-2-p type of thing is still dangerous. but again, their are ways to combat that problem too. we're actually working on it right now :)

TheFLY

Like you guys really give a shit if some horny 16 y/o steals his Mom's Visa card to see chicks on the bangbus...

You guys are all full of shit -- you are just greedy fucks -- and your greed will only turn on you -- the more the government gets into regulation of your rights and internet access -- the more fucked up the ass you will be down the line --

Regulation is BAD! -- it slows innovation, it slows traffic... free trade is how we make money in the world! You make an AVS law, there will be fewer creative sites, fewer ideas, LESS INNOVATION! I'm honestly ashamed for many of you to support government intervention.

If it does happen -- I can GUARANTEE that you will not make more money and you will be sorry that it ever happened. You are SHORT-SIGHTED GREEDY FUCKS! To me it's a simple FACT that the internet is based on SURFING -- and if you try to regulate SURFING, YOU HAVE LESS TRAFFIC... It's very simple.

quiet

i don't think you're addressing me - but i am not worried about making more or less money, regardless of what is to come. i started this thread because i think it is an interesting question... i'm close to be being done with porn all together.

The Machine

traffic is bullshit - what is important is the bottom line, and yes, we are in this industry for profit - how about you, Fly ;)

titmowse

"Regulation is BAD! -- it slows innovation, it slows traffic... free trade is how we make money in the world! You make an AVS law, there will be fewer creative sites, fewer ideas, LESS INNOVATION! I'm honestly ashaed for many of you to support government intervention. "

first of all. there's a big difference between free trade and giving things away for free. the word "trade" should be a clue. as far as innovation and creativity goes, i think you'll find adult publications have long been platforms for progressive art, literature and interviews. you find controversial coverage in adult publications all the time.

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TheFLY

If we have an AVS law:

Who decides what AVS system is "US Government Approved"?
What government agency will regulate AVS sites?
How will the government approve new AVS technology or alternatives?

I honestly think these questions will never be asked -- the web is only a fragment of the internet -- and if you take away free porn on the web -- HTTP just becomes less important to the porn industry as a whole and there will be movement to free porn via other methods. And you better believe that I would exploit all of them ;)

TheFLY

What is to stop someone from opening a FREE AVS site???

I verify your age -- now you have access to my FREE TGP! HAHA...

Mr.Fiction

Dude, why bother arguing. Many people are just seeing $$$ signs. They couldn't give a shit about free speech, the constitution, or you.

Do what I do when dealing with stuff like this.

Light a candle.

quiet

have you read any of my recent posts? i think that would be great. on a very large scale.

quiet

yes - the last thing you should be worrying about is profit, if you're in this biz.

The Machine

lol

titmowse

there are two different points being rallied around here: age verification and payment for porn. are these two different issues? do some actually feel that children under a certain age are some sort of real client base? who on god's earth are you trying to serve your porn to? why (as said before) do you think porn should be free? alcohol isn't free. videos aren't free. the cinema isn't free. porn is a form of entertainment. it's not a right.

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TheFLY

10 years ago nobody was on the internet and we still gave away free porn on BBS's by Zmodem -- most newbies haven't even heard of Zmodem -- and 10 years from now AVS will be yet another forgotten acronym.

Save your breath -- light a candle.

Mr.Fiction

If you think money is more important than freedom, then that's totally your right. However, if everyone thought like that, you wouldn't have the freedom today to sell porn and make the money you're making.

quiet

the difference being, now there are *many* people getting/wanting free porn. who cares about a small minority of geeks? they can (and will) pirate my content - i don't give a fuck.

TheFLY

And yes -- porn is a right.

I AM PORN!

quiet

okay pal. i am a huge free speech proponent. if you've read any of my posts, it would be pretty obvious.

wtf are you even talking about - porn is a business, like any other.

TheFLY

Yeah -- and that's SO TRUE. Some people don't remember the early days -- the only reason the web became popular was because everything was free. Nobody wants to pay for access to the internet only to pay for more access... Door to door dialer salesmen would make more money ;p

titmowse

mr thefly. i think i understand the point your are trying to make. you are worried about the free exchange of ideas and information that is the spirit of the internet. i just think you worry too much. i believe that will still continue. the web is an entertainment medium and it will adapt to the models of print, television, radio and other forms of "free" entertainment. it will be paid for by advertising. those who wish get their content without advertising or those who wish to get things like porn or cyber casino access or more advanced online gaming systems will have to shell out the bucks. but little pages with dangerous ideas will always be out there. light a candle for that.

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quiet

what a crock of shit. the early days. yes, i was there. big fucking deal. get over the 'early days'. they are gone lol.

i'm going to cry now

Mr.Fiction

What about literature? Books like Lolita, The Ice Storm, Anne Rice novels, Slaughterhouse Five, Fountainhead, etc.?

Should you have to show your credit card before you can read books online too?

Remember, I'm just naming famous books above. Now, with the web, there are millions of authors publishing books every year. Should you have to show ID before you see any or all of these books?

What is porn? Anything that offends you?

This is a never ending argument.

You are either for more freedom, or less freedom. Either one has its problems. I tend to think that we need to err on the side of more, not less freedom.

Who cares if someone is offended? Tough shit. Adults have a right to access offensive material under the constitution.

Any AVS system that blocks adults from seeing legal material, if it was required by federal law, would be unconstitutional.

Again, look at the library filtering case. You can't use a system that also filters out legal content for adults. Every system available today would do just that.

quiet

but by all means, treat it as a public service - unlike many here, it doesn't bother me. infact i like that attitude :) just make's me more money at the expense of 'freedom' lol.

The Machine

lol, so true - we all loved free shit - i was in school in the early days and those free papers posted by university professors all over the net were very useful, yes, but they are gone now. it may seem impossible now but free email will be gone pretty soon too. and the main point is - if you make enough money in this business, which should be the main idea - you won't give a damn about freebies because you'll be able to pay for every service you need and not even notice - think about that for a while before bitching about the good ol' days.

titmowse

"Should you have to show your credit card before you can read books online too? "

yes. those authors you mentioned deserve to be paid as much as any. what is this problem you have with credit cards? are you from a country where they don't have them or something?

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Mr.Fiction

$$$ > FREEDOM

TheFLY

Anyway, cool thread. These hypothetical scenarios are always good for coming up with new ideas.

Mr.Fiction

It is interesting. I suspect it will be at least another year before we know anything about what the government's going to try to do. It's been kicked back to the lower court, and they'll probably take a while, then it might go back to the Supremes right away.

If not right away, then there are certain to be numerous specific Supreme Court appeals over a period of many years.

How many of us will still be in the adult industry in 10 years?

Quiet is ready to retire.

Who else is out?

Who's in?

titmowse

but by that same token, the works of william shakespeare are one of the few true examples of public domain. so are many greek tragedies and a lil book called the bible. your thoughts are free. demanding payment for forms of entertainment is not an attack against the poor.

we also have a responsibily to the public. we offer something that a whole lot of people under a certain age shouldn't see. the combination of payment and age verification seems to me to be a better solution to zealots that wish us dissappeared then waiting till free porn gets so out of hand online porn is banned altogether.

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quiet

i might be ready to retire (i could have a long time ago). but my company isn't going anywhere. it is simply growing larger and larger - and will continue to do so once i'm gone.

i'll be 'retiring' next year (after i turn 30). because i'm successful and have understood this biz for the past 7 years. even treated it like a business lol. it's a cross i'll just have to bear ;)

spanky

Adults have that right but children don't. Mr.Fiction, am I right when I say that your concern about using credit cards to verify age is that some adults do not have credit cards and as such wouldn't be able to access the same porn that adults with credit cards could? Certainly a valid concern.

Would you say that a method of verifying age that didn't insist on a credit card was still unconstitutional? Like mailing in a copy of your drivers license or other legal ID?

cheers

The Machine

but adults will allways access 'offensive' material - they'll just have to pay for it - or at least show they can pay (and are of legal age to do so).

Mr.Fiction

You are mixing issues. If the Federal Government demands payment for access to certain types of constitutionally protected content, then that could, in fact, be an attempt to take constitutional rights away from the poor.

You're trying to make an argument that you, yourself, charging for something isn't wrong. Fine, we agree on that. My argument is that the government can't make the KKK, or Bianca's Smut Shack, not you, but those private individuals, charge for access to offensive material that they want to distribute. Further, the argument is that the government can't make people pay for their free speech rights. In the constitution, it doesn't say that only rich people have a right to read or write what they want.

Again, if the government made a law that every library in the country had to get credit card info before you could look at a book, that law would be struck down faster than you can say "show me the money!"

We can go deeper into this argument as well. You assume that porn is bad for children, right. What about racist speech? Violence? Anti abortion propaganda? Certain religions? The bible, pro drug literature, blonde jokes, gay rights info? You might think that porn is harmful to kids. Someone else might disagree. Someone might argue that bikini pics are harmful to kids. Many people argue that rap music is harmful to kids. So, who decides what is harmful? Who decides what is porn? Is 2 Live Crew porn? Is the Kama Sutra? Is the Bible?

In my opinion, you are not looking at the big picture. Again, that's your right. You can make this simple. We all make more money, everyone is happy. That's not the way that I see it. We disagree. That's allowed. God bless America.

playa

you actually think its that simple?
only way to solve the problem is to move out of the states

The Machine

you heard of free AVSs? and the government can't and won't make anybody pay for porn - but we can and should...lol

TheFLY

It seems like the price of traffic would increase slightly as more money would need to go into buying type-ins... The SE's and browsers would probably cut more profitable private deals -- old media (print, TV) would make more money with people paying $$$ for type-in traffic...

I'm guessing this would help the popularity of softcore sites -- wherever the government drew the line is where the most traffic would be -- paysites like Oliver Klozov would probably end up with more traffic... Probably bikini sites would be more popular. I wouldn't complain about that.

As it is now I don't give away any hardcore pics -- mostly just tits -- just like the Amateur Pages tours -- I'd be really suprised if they made pics of tits illegal -- because I think a woman's body will be protected by free speech because it's a popular subject for artists -- so I suppose not much would change for me -- if there was an AVS law I wouldn't need to change any of my sites -- but in the future maybe I'd have to waste my time pixelating cock in Photoshop.

I don't know why we are calling this an AVS law though -- IMHO AVS is pretty lame compared to a real paysite... The thought of everyone kissing AVS ass really seems pathetic to me.

The Machine

people will always want and pay for hardcore

Daymare

Exactly.

TheFLY

Move to Pornolia... they will protect your rights.

titmowse

"You are mixing issues. If the Federal Government demands payment for access to certain types of constitutionally protected content, then that could, in fact, be an attempt to take constitutional rights away from the poor."

you're mixing issues. porn is not constitutionally protected speech. It's an adult product/form of entertainment. The government (as far as i know) doesn't charge a penny for information. they have other ways to block the stuff the don't want you to know. Of course, this is the government of the United States I'm talking about.

The "government" can't make up laws for the Internet that would be in denial of existing ones in real life. Plenty of real world companies produce porn and controversial books and movies every day. In America, we get the right to pay for porn just like we do cable or our Internet connection.

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Mr.Fiction

There are two parts of this question:

1. In theory, I would have very little problem with an AVS system that didn't prohibit adults from viewing content they want to view. I don't think a credit card system is the right solution. If there was, for example, a system that you could easily sign up for once, using a state issued ID or something simple, and then you could go wherever you wanted on the web, and it wouldn't track your browsing patterns, then I think it would probably be acceptable. It would have to allow anonymous browsing, at least as anonymoust as browsing is currently, once you are identified in some way. I'm not sure if Adult Check, for example, tracks each login, at each site, for each member. I don't think monitoring every site visited is acceptable. Courts have ruled that library records, for example, are protected. So too should web browsing records.

2. Now we come to the complex issue. What sites would be behind an AVS system? This is not an easy one to answer. I certainly don't think that any site offensive to any child anywhere in the U.S. should be required to be behind an AVS. That's insane. Jews would want Catholic sites banned, Muslims would want Jewish sites banned. Christians would want Mormon sites banned. Right wingers would want gay rights site blocked, gays would want religious sites blocked, anti gun people would want the NRA blocked, Rush Limbaugh would want BillClinton.com blocked, and so on.

I'm not sure what the answer to the second part of this question is. I guess a voluntary system to start with, and then the government would have to start trying to prosecute sites that they think are too offensive or something. Then, the rules would be written as juries either clear people or convict them. That's pretty much how porn law is made. Precedents. What's obscene? Whatever some jury finds obscene. Maybe that would be the standard under a new system as well. Whatever some jury says is really really offensive to some kids, and whatever the Supreme Court doesn't overturn.

It's complex. I personally believe that web filtering should be voluntary. Again, I am on the side of more, not less freedom. I know that opinion is not shared by everyone.

Mr.Fiction

John A-s-h-c-r-o-f-t, is that you?

titmowse

"There are two parts of this question:

1. In theory, I would have very little problem with an AVS system that didn't prohibit adults from viewing content they want to view. I don't think a credit card system is the right solution. If there was, for example, a system that you could easily sign up for once, using a state issued ID or something simple, and then you could go wherever you wanted on the web, and it wouldn't track your browsing patterns, then I think it would probably be acceptable. It would have to allow anonymous browsing, at least as anonymoust as browsing is currently, once you are identified in some way. I'm not sure if Adult Check, for example, tracks each login, at each site, for each member. I don't think monitoring every site visited is acceptable. Courts have ruled that library records, for example, are protected. So too should web browsing records.

2. Now we come to the complex issue. What sites would be behind an AVS system? This is not an easy one to answer. I certainly don't think that any site offensive to any child anywhere in the U.S. should be required to be behind an AVS. That's insane. Jews would want Catholic sites banned, Muslims would want Jewish sites banned. Christians would want Mormon sites banned. Right wingers would want gay rights site blocked, gays would want religious sites blocked, anti gun people would want the NRA blocked, Rush Limbaugh would want BillClinton.com blocked, and so on.

I'm not sure what the answer to the second part of this question is. I guess a voluntary system to start with, and then the government would have to start trying to prosecute sites that they think are too offensive or something. Then, the rules would be written as juries either clear people or convict them. That's pretty much how porn law is made. Precedents. What's obscene? Whatever some jury finds obscene. Maybe that would be the standard under a new system as well. Whatever some jury says is really really offensive to some kids, and whatever the Supreme Court doesn't overturn.

It's complex. I personally believe that web filtering should be voluntary. Again, I am on the side of more, not less freedom. I know that opinion is not shared by everyone."

and my question to you is, who is going to pay for this nirvana cyberwonderland you speak of?

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The Machine

you are overcomplicating a very simple issue. a major point we want to make here and one even free speech activists should be able to grasp is that porn is a business and we should be in it to make money - i don't see what you're doing here otherwise.

UnseenWorld

You're confusing AVS's with parental controls. The legislatures wanted libraries to use parental controls, but parental controls block non-adult sites as well as adult sites.

No system will be foolproof, but AVS's require credit cards, and the legal assumption has been that wherever there's a credit card, there's a responsible adult. So, if a kid gets through using an adult's card, at least it's the responsibility of the cardholding adult, not the site operator.

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TheFLY

don't tell my girlfriend that -- she may start charging for access.

HAHA