Mr. Soul

...and 60% are in the closet themselves, the other 40% are worried they might be.

giftedtwisted

the antichrist has arrived

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mardigras

LOL, you act like there are pride parades everywhere and they all have lewd conduct. Just because Pat Robertson reruns the same loops for years doesn't make it a fact.
Perhaps if you had wanted to make a point you might try picking a picture actually representing a pride parade... not shots from Mardi gras.
http://www.cavedwellersrule.com/mardi_gras.htm

Pleasurepays

that was completely fabricated by someone trying to make a point. traditional wedding vows in the US begin "i (name) take (name) to be my lawfully wedded husband/wife" - other than that, if you are going to make an argument using history, there are countless 1000's of traditions and variations. that has nothing to do with the contemporary history and historic tradition where a wedding is a union between a man and woman. its even stated in law.

i said "traditional values" not "hey man, fuck you... all heterosexual relationships are perfect". thats a stupid remark that a couple people have made. exceptions to the rule done disprove the general correctness of the rule.

... and what is your point? gays cheat less? gays are better people? gays are less prone to negative behaviors?

our country was founded on defending the rights of the minority? huh? lets take a quick poll... ask how many blacks agree with you. our country was founded on 10% dream, 45% hype and 45% hypocrisy. sorry to be the one to break the sad news to you that the world is not a fair place.


uhmmm.... huh????!?!?!???!! the majority does dictate what "normal" is. jesus christ... now you are telling me that you don't know what the word "normal" means? let me help you from memory (within the context of this conversation) --- normal = behavior and beliefs that typify that of the majority.

mardigras

Gay couples can't just "live together" to get benefits. They must enter into a legal civil union to secure rights and benefits. YOU have the option to marry the person you fall in love with, I do not.. The current debate is little about "protecting marriage" anyway. Most people who are politically vocal against gay marriage do not support partner rights of homosexuals under any condition. This is evident by the number of states who have passed or are attempting to pass state laws forbidding the recognition of civil unions.

djdez

When gay people have the right to marry I'll be the first to stand beside you on that or I'll be the first to say that act needs to be repealed. I just don't think that you have any room to complain when you CAN marry. We can't. Therefore we need some protections in the interim.

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Pleasurepays

your right... when people think "gay pride parade" they are thinking about 1/2 naked gays in assless leather chaps, transexuals and transvestites running around in outrageous costumes and exhibiting sexually suggestive behavior... not because thats what EVERY gay pride parade shows (many countries have them) - but because they are just a right wing conservative nut jobs. *sigh* yeah right!!

1000's of freaks, running around the streets as if they are trying to win a dancing gay clown competition is not "pride". "pride" is simply being comfortable and with and being proud of what you are. you dont need an orange wig, leather bikini briefs, a spiked dog collar and a bull whip to show that. that only shows you're an idiot PROVING just how different you are and proving everyone's concerns to have merit.

Pleasurepays

edit. blah.

stickyfingerz

Ya cause that law made so much sense.... lol Do you even know what it even restricted? lol

Pleasurepays

sorry... New York 2005. better? -- or is Pat Robertson responsible for this too?

Mr. Soul

People like you said the same thing about the "those uppity n1ggers" in the 60's. Your "argument" doesn't even start to make sense. People being different proves that people's "concern" has merit? What the fuck does that even mean? People are different. It's hateful bigots who only accepts people the same as themselves who are responsible for all the hatred and genocide this world has seen. In a free country people are allowed to be different, even if seeing them makes grandpa and grandma hillbilly uncomfortable. You think if some people, even if it were a vast majority, dislike or are uncomfortable with a certain minority group, that group shouldn't have the same rights as the rest of us? Why do you hate America and the freedom for all that it's based on?

It's always hilarious watching someone try to justify bigotry or racism. Especially when they damn well know that deep down inside their hatred of gays comes from a fear that they may be gay themselves. Keep it up.

Tom_PM

Yes.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb

"The federal law banning the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons, known as the federal assault weapons ban, has expired. It was passed as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. President Clinton signed it into law on September 13, 1994. Despite his promise to renew the ban, President George W. Bush and Congress allowed the ban to "sunset" in September of 2004."

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mardigras

How come it's OK when this guy does it?

Pleasurepays

because he is not marching down mainstreet new york trying to represent a group of people that want to be percieved as being just the same as everyone else. he is off somewhere at a private gathering expressing himself in a way that i am sure he doesn't expect everyone on the planet to accept as "normal"... and from what i know about him, he could care less if anyone likes it or not and is not insecure about who he is as most people posting in this thread.

Pleasurepays

you are not listening to me. and the meaningless comparisons and irrelevent extremes everyone is resorting to is stupid. hitler? n1ggers? genocide?
"why do you hate america and freedom?" - give me a break. why not start comparing first century goths to romans or make some other irrelevent comparrison that has no real bearing on the conversation or issue?

AND SINCE THE INSECURE AND ANGRY TURD BURGLERS STILL DONT GET IT- "i don't support gay marriage" does not mean "I AM A BIGGOT" and it certainly isn't racist since its not an issue of race.

nice try... i guess you are not very sure of the merits of your own arguments if you guys feel the need to repeatedly and INCORRECTLY attach inflamatory and incendiary words to the conversation like "racism"

mardigras

So are you going to make me dig up a pic of Halcyon in a more public setting?
Who says the people in the pics you posted are insecure? They seem to be having as much fun as Halcyon at Burning Man.

Where do you get the idea of people "marching down mainstreet new york trying to represent a group of people that want to be percieved as being just the same as everyone else"? Gay people are as individual as anyone else, it's being treated the same as everyone else that is being asked for.

You know the old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease? Well if gays kept their mouths shut and their identities hidden as so many espouse nobody but gays would know there is a problem and there would never be a discussion for a solution. Sure, the people in "pride parades" attract attention because they are held in a few large cities, but the majority of gay people in the US don't live near those cities nor have ever been to a parade nor dress in leather thongs, etc. The people participating in pride parades represent the average gay US citizen about as much as Fred Phelps represents Baptists.

lesbodojo

God this is so fucking sad. As if I'm not reminded all the time that I don't have the same rights. This is a civil rights issue.

I can't wait for a power shift.

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Tom_PM

So should everyone be judged by how they act in parades I guess? Cool, now I got it

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Mr. Soul

It's funny that bigots can't see themselves for what they are. Oh no, of course making gays second class citizens because some people think they aren't "normal" has no relationship to racism or religious persecution. What was I thinking? What a stupid comparison. Diving our societies into government defined classes with different rights is a great idea.

Once the gays are out of the way we can focus on spicks and chinks. Those guys don't seem normal to me either.

mardigras

As long as federal funding is being withheld for voting precints that refuse to install the paperless voting machines, don't hold your breath.

Pleasurepays

i dont see how its the same. do you want me to dig up pics of 12clicks bending a sheep over the front bumper of his jeep? why would i... when it doesn't mean anything and have any bearing on the conversation... no more than hal does.

again.... i did not say all gay men are wearing rollerskates, assless chaps and a bra. i simply made the comment if that you want to be taken seriously, start acting serious. don't blame me for all the creepy weirdo's at gay "pride" parades. i didn't put them there... and pride has nothing to do with acting like an idiot.

i think gay pride parades should be a huge embarrassment to gays. just in the same way that i wouldn't want to be taken seriously by hosting a Corporate Attorneys of America parade and seeing so many people dressed and acting in the same way.

i never said discussion was bad.

funny you are arguing AGAINST generalizations when you and everyone else supporting gay marriage has made such nasty generalizations about anyone who might be opposed to gay marriage... and have even been so stupid as to go further in making arguments about freedom, democracy and so on while making it clear that no one is entitled to an opinion on the subject unless it is your opinion.


just like right now... anyone who doesn't agree on the issue of gay marriage is categorically a biggot. so much for "freedom" in america.

Marcgoldie22

Then if gays can't get married, they should pay less taxes since they don't get the same rights as straight people do. And don't say single straight people deserve a break too, they can legally get married and choose not to. The way Bush is going, gays won't get to choose and therefore aren't equal citizens and shouldn't have to pay full taxes either.

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Pleasurepays

explain how you are a "second class citizen"? are you being made to sit at the back of the bus? do you have to drink from a different water fountain? are there "gay only" bathrooms somewhere that i am not aware of?

or... are you claiming that the SINGLE issue of gay marriage equates to "second class citizen"? if i was a black person, i would be deeply offended by your making light of what they suffered through and incorrectly comparing your inconvienence to their plight.

i doubt many who are not as overly emotional about the issue would agree.

Pleasurepays

i would tend to agree with you. i think that most agree about rights. i certainly do.. the dissagreement is simply about gay "marriage" and whether or not the definition of marriage and legal status should be changed to include same sex unions.

Marcgoldie22

Gays are not treated equally in much of the US still. Look at all the fuss over Brokeback Mountain because it portrayed two gay sheepherders in love. In many parts of the country, if two gay men were walking down the street, simply holding hands, they could get beat up or worse. Straight couples never have to worry about being themselves in public, gay people still do... So it is more than just marriage rights to be treated equally.

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Pleasurepays

i can walk in the wrong part of town and get beat up or worse. i can get beat up for being white just as easily as someone can get beat up for being gay.

Mr. Soul

You are so fucked in the head buddy. Freedom does not mean the right to discriminate against minority groups. God damn some of you people are hopelessly ignorant.

Pleasurepays

i am fucked in the head according to you... but at least i possess the maturity to understand and respect your opinion. the fact that i can and you so clearly can't, doesn't say much about you.

like others here, you don't mind bringing up ideals as long as you agree with them... and like others here, you convienently forget them when the views of others dissagree with yours.

i am not everyone. i am one person. i personally don't think its necessary to change the legal definition of marriage. i personally agree that gay couples should have similar rights as married couples.

calling me a biggot for that would simply be an insult to biggots, not to mention, be completely false.

Mr. Soul

First of all, I'm not gay, I'm a well off strait white American citizen, so I'm not being persecuted.

Different rights for different kinds of people = different classes of people. It's as simple as that. We should all have the same rights and freedoms. Denying gays or anyone else ANY right that the majority has makes a second class.

Obviously I don't think gays face the same kind of injustice that blacks once did. That doesn't mean that this isn't also a civil rights issue. No one in their right mind, black or white, thinks that considering the gay rights movement a civil rights struggle is making light of the 60's civil rights movement. That movement was about equal rights for everyone, and so is this one. It's an obvious comparison and you just deny that because you have to make yourself think that your feelings on this issue are logical and not hate/fear based, which they are, because that can be the only reason a person wants other groups of people to have limited rights. It's not a matter of "moral values" or any other smokescreen people use to attempt to conceal their prejudices

Although I do agree with Stephen Colbert that they shouldn't be allowed to get driver's licenses.

baddog

I don't want to get married. I just want to enjoy the benefits. Why can't I register and get them?

Mr. Soul

This has nothing to do with "changing the definition of marriage" or "moral values" or any of that nonsense. It's about people who aren't comfortable seeing homosexual people in public wanting them to go back in the closet. If people were so concerned about marriage they'd start with divorce. There's no getting around that undeniable fact. This is why I say and believe that anyone wanting to deny gays the right of marriage is a bigot, whether they can admit it to themselves or not. I'm sure in your head you tell yourself that you care about the definition of marriage, but I would have to say that your stance stems from a deep discomfort with homosexual people, as you've displayed by voicing your discomfort with their parades.

Pleasurepays

the conversation keeps confusing "marriage" with "rights". there is a difference between redefining marriage and 1000's of years of cultural and religious tradition and offering the same rights to a relationship that contemporary law has never formally recognized.

Mr. Soul

"People always say we can't have gay marriage because marriage is a sacred institution. No it's not! Not in America! Not with 'Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire' and 'The Bachelor' and 'Who Wants to Marry a Midget.'"

-Chris Rock

Mr. Soul

That's where you're confusing yourself. No one wants to change your traditions. You can keep doing whatever you want. This is about you wanting to tell other people they can't do what they want. What other people do should not and does not affect what you do. Just because there's Buddhism in the world that doesn't mean it's hurting the traditions of Christians. Just because gays are getting married somewhere in the world that doesn't affect your traditional Christian marriages.

To me marriage has nothing to do with this. It's not even really about gays to me. It's about a majority group attempting to force their will on a minority group and to define what they can and can not do. That is unacceptable in modern society. That's why it's a civil rights issue.

When they came for the gays, I didn't say anything because I wasn't gay. Well, you know the rest. I hope.

Pleasurepays

i NEVER said i was uncomfortable with gay pride parades. i was trying to comment on the ignorance of acting like a bizarre lunatic OR associating yourself with that behavior and at the same time, demanding accceptance or complaining that people percieve gays as "different".

ok... anyway, i am a biggot. you are now telling me and others what i am thinking and describing my personal feelings. send the 250.00/hr bill to.....

i have said i support the idea that gay couples should have the same rights as married couples quite a few times now. i am the shittiest biggot ever and lamest homophobe there is.

i have a meeting to go to and the caffeine has worn off and i need to get some work done.

Pleasurepays

i am not christian and don't believe in god. your assumptions and conclusions are way off as are your repeated attempts to summarize or characterize my feelings on the subject.

i will say it again... i understand and respect your opinion. i can even agree with your logic.

Mr. Soul

Everyone all of a sudden gets busy as soon as I start to make them re-think their narrow minded views. How strange.

mardigras

Who? ME? Or is this some of that generalization stuff you just chatised me for? I've never been to a pride parade. Like the majority of gay US citizens I live in a rural area. I don't run around wearing anything outrageous nor make a public spectacle of myself.
Actually, although I see outrageous behavior at parades as conter-productive I support their right to do so as much as I <choke> support Fred Phelp's right to spew his venom as long as he isn't tresspassing or harassing.
I beg your pardon? Show me one nasty generalization I have made to this thread. I have conducted this discussion with respect to you and other posters who disagree with my position, as I always do. Perhaps in your own generalizations you are blurrying my posts with others?
Again, I have only countered you and others with questions geared to foster civil discussion. Where have I ever stated on this forum or any other that no one is entitled to an opinion unless it is my opinion?
I don't think that someone who disagrees on the issue of gay marriage is automatically a bigot. Those that take it a step further and support bans on civil unions and rights of homosexuals in general are definitely biggoted.

Mr. Soul

I'm starting to suspect that this Pleasurepays may not be a bigot. He may just be a right wing stooge who has to find justification for towing the party line. He says he doesn't hate gays and that he's in favor of equal civil unions, yet he just can't bring himself to admit that gay marriages wouldn't make a bit of fucking difference to anyone but the gay couples themselves. There is no logical reason that a rational person would resort to playing semantics on an issue like this.

You basically agree with gays having the same rights as strait married couples right? So then why not let them call themselves married? This affects them a great deal when they travel to other countries, since all other developed countries have or will soon have full equal rights for gays, but most don't recognized "civil unions". Is the only reason for your stance that admitting to yourself that gays should be allowed marriages would make you realize that the politicans/pundits you support are idiots?

mardigras

An interesting fact... Bob Barr was in his 3rd marriage when he authored the Defense of Marriage Act

Pleasurepays

i have my views, you have yours. you haven't made me rethink anything and i am sure you are bright enough to know and understand that no minds will be changed through these discussions... anymore that i can convince you that there is or isn't a god.

i began by simply challenging the idea that one is a racist, a biggot etc etc etc, or that one am some sort of nazi asshole for not sharing the same opinion. unfortuneately for most in this conversation, i dont care about gays or their issues... no more than i care about truckers and their issues or airplane pilots or rabbits or Somalians. i have enough shit to worry about at home.

as i have said again and again.. i understand your view and i respect your opinion.

i personally think the narrow minded person is the one that says "you dont agree with me... so you are not only wrong, you are a biggot, a racist, a nazi and an enemy of the state" as many have in this thread. ... but hey, what do i know.

directfiesta

Freedom, today, means nothing ... nothing at all ... just a overused and abused word.

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mardigras

When a person has their last will and testament giving their partner everything overturned with the state's blessing and given to a family who had nothing to do with them, they are a 2nd class citizen

Pleasurepays

i am also not right wing. i dont support republicans and i think bush is unquestionably the dumbest person to ever run a country without the use of military force.

you can keep trying... or you can just accept that i have an opinion, its my own, its for my own reasons and that its different than yours.

Pleasurepays

here is an area where i feel there is confusion. who says this is how it should be? the problem is that there is a vacuum in the law where this issue is not addressed and a debate on HOW it should be addressed.

mardigras

That's a pretty significant, and one of the major issues.... which would be solved by civil unions with a federal law requiring reciprocity of civil unions between states. Sure states control "marriage", how many of them would be allowed to go back to not recognizing interracial marriages? Those laws were still on the books in the lifetimes of many posters here and more than one in this thread (and sadly a good number of people in general) would be thrilled to go back to that kind of control over other's lives. What if one of the really red states decided to outlaw divorce? That's true defense of marriage. Support that?

Sexxxy Sites

I do not know about Canada but more freedom exists in the USA than existed just fifty years ago, in a multitude of areas.

mardigras

That would be 1955 or so. Other than correcting the discrimination against blacks what new "freedoms" are you referring to?

Relish XXX

In the UK I really believe that 99% of the people dont give a shit about race or sexuality. It is the 1% that fuck it up though.

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yota71

NORMAL is a term controlled by the people who make all the money and buy other peoples opionions.

Unlearn what you have been taught
An open mind is the first step towards an open door....

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