MY RANT!! Cogent Bandwidth and Hosting Economics. - GoFuckYourself.com

Brad Mitchell · 05-20-2002, 11:38 PM

This shit cracks me up. Below is my hosting rant... If you host on a server with Cogent bandwidth you might learn something about economics and the proponderance of false advertising in the hosting business if you read this.

There is good and bad in everything - there are good hosts, there are bad hosts. Sure, sometimes shit happens to good hosts. Bad hosts have shit happening all the time. This is not directed at any one company in particular.

You usually get what you pay for. All of the large affiliate programs use bandwidth provided by companies like Level 3, Verio and the like. There is a reason for that, it's better bandwidth. They also pay more for management and hardware. Why? All that stuff costs moola. If all you're doing is TGPs then I suppose Cogent bandwidth is fine with triple the latency, just hope they don't go out of business or you're fucked.

A lot of hosting companies advertise falsely all the time. You're never going to see your server - you don't know what the fuck you're hosted on. So, if you're paying $200 per month and your host is telling you that you're hosted on a dual processing server with 1 gig of ram and SCSI hard drives he's probably a lying motherfucker.

To add insult to injury, many hosts that advertise redundant bandwidth don't have it. Take, for example, anyone that sells Cogent. There is not a single company selling Cogent represented here on GFY that has 1000mbits from Cogent and 1000mbits from a Verio or Level 3 as a backup. I bet there isn't even one that has 100mbit from each of two providers. The reason is simple: 100mbit from Cogent is $3000, 10mbit from a Verio or Level 3 is $3000. DO THE MATH. You can't sell bandwidth for .50 or even 1.00 per gig if you have to pay both providers - the cheap one as primary and the expensive for backup.

Of course dedicated hosting is optimal. However, based on sheer numbers I'd bet most people in the adult business are doing virtual hosting. It's easy to tell someone to do dedicated hosting but if they're building their business chances are virtual hosting is the better value. Just because dedicated is 'cooler' then virtual doesn't excuse hosts that sell virtual hosting to unsuspecting webmasters and deliver shoddy performance. Here too, you get what you pay for. If you're paying $50 per month for 100 gigs you're bound to have a bad experience. Can virtual hosting be a great option? Absolutely!!

Again, do the math. If 100mbit from Cogent costs $3000 and the host is selling for .50 per gig he's got a theoretical 30,000 outbound gigs that he can sell (assuming 10% of the traffic is inbound). If a host sold all 30,000 gigs at .50 each he'd gross $15,000. That, minus his hard costs of $3000 for his 100mbit from Cogent and approximately $700 for a full cabinet (because you have to pay for space in a colo facility)... EXCEPT, you can't sell 'ALL' of your available bandwidth or you have a bunch of pissed off customers. Why? Well, anyone hosting that doesn't use MRTG graphs doesn't realize that your peak bandwidth utilization is upwards of twice your average. What does this all mean? If you sell 50mbit of bandwidth you better have a 100mbit pipe so that you can accomodate your customers peaks and valleys without losing packets and network performance. When a network tops out, everything gets delayed.

And where are we now? Well, if you have a host with a 100mbit pipe from Cogent he's paying $3000 for that and if he uses one cabinet in the facility (space for 40 1U servers) add about $700 in rent (average). He can only sell 50% for great performance or maybe as high as 70% if he's lucky. Here's the math at a 50% sell through: $7500 - $3000 - $700 = $3800/month as a gross profit. If he's selling you dedicated hosting, he's got margin on the server rent and management. If he's selling you virtual hosting, those hardware and management costs are straight up out of his bottom line.

So what can you possibly get for .50 per gig? Well, if you're virtual hosting you're going to be on a shit box that's overloaded. In general you're going to be lucky if your host has expensive routers, switches and hubs. You're also going to be lucky if you're in a proper hosting facility with 24-7 security, proper fire supressiom, raised flooring, proper HVAC and redundant power to the facility. Oh, and speaking of hardware, you're going to be lucky if your server is actually plugged into a UPS. What can you expect from this hypothetical host in terms of support? Well, if his best case gross-net is $3800 per month... YOU CAN'T HIRE A NETWORK ENGINEER FOR $35,000 PER YEAR, LET ALONE 3 OF THEM FOR 24 HOUR SUPPORT. Chances are there are no employees, just contractors and friends that do favors. If the server 'rent' and 'management' fees aren't very high then you're really playing russian roulette. If they're low do the math - price out your server as they have it spec'd. Example? $300 per month for a server = $3600 per year. A dual processing server with dual IDE drives and 1 gig of ram is at about $2000 if it's a name brand server like a Dell or Compaq. If it was built by the host, who the fuck would want that? Shitty hardware is another discussion so go fuck yourself tightass. So, this host has $1600 per year in gross profit on your account, or $133 per month to pay for installation, maintenance, upgrades and network emergencies.

That's some real hypothetical math... However, I'm sure there are alot of experienced hosts out there that would agree I'm not too far off the mark for this size hosting operation. What's my point to all of this? Well, currently many of you are enjoying cheap bandwidth and I think that's great. You better hope that the companies out there selling the pipe don't go out of business because you'll be back to paying $2-$3 per gig. Cogent isn't profitable and since they're undercutting all the Tier 1 providers nobody wants to give them peering arrangements anymore. What else? I find that most hosts selling shitty bandwidth also have a shitty network infrastructure, crappy hardware and false advertising about redundant bandwidth.

So, good luck to all of you! In as much as you all BITCH and MOAN on this board about paying NOTHING for hosting most of the guys making bank are paying good money to their hosts. Is that a coincidence? You be the judge. I laugh every time I see someone on here making fun of a host for charging more than $2 per gig. You get what you pay for.

The differences between cheap and expensive hosting is generally not like going to the grocery store and getting Frosted Mini Wheats versus the Generic brand. We all know those two cereals are made in the same factory... but the difference between cheap ass hosting and average hosting prices are typically indicative of two entirely different product and service offerings.

Why is it so important that something like Cogent stay in business? Well, if they don't virtually all of you big TGP posters would be hard pressed to make a nice profit. Conversions are shit and you need to give away a gigs just to get a sale. If you had to pay an aggregate of $5-6 per gig (includes: bandwidth, hardware, management) you'd at least be a lot less profitable.

In closing, just because you need cheap hosting to make your business model work and accept compromises on the quality and performance of your hosting - that doesn't mean the rest of us are in the same boat. When you run paysites, an affiliate program, a search engine, or any site that gets bookmark traffic you need to spoil your surfers with good performance... that costs money.

I can't wait to see all the disgruntled replies. Show me the money! Point out to me all the big companies that use Cogent bandwidth. Of all the people that exhibit at the Internext shows, whose products are hosted on this bandwidth? Live Feeds? Content Plug-Ins? Pay Sites? Guess what, they're all paying more for hosting then .50-1.00 per gig and you probably couldn't switch them over if you begged them. Does this cheap hosting work for alot of you? Absolutely! And, I hope it continues to go well. I just thought I'd enlighten a few of you about the REAL world of hosting economics. Perhaps you'll have a few new questions to ask next time you're shopping for a host.

Cheers!

Brad

Amputate Your Head · 05-20-2002, 11:44 PM

check it out! Brad's goin' off!!!

Mr.Fiction · 05-20-2002, 11:46 PM

Can you post some graphs to go along with all of that text.

Thanks.

Brad Mitchell · 05-20-2002, 11:48 PM

Amp - I was DUE for a good rant!!

Mr. Fiction - are you serious? I got pics...! How much are you going to make this month on Phone Sex with SinTalk...?

Brad

sinomatic · 05-20-2002, 11:48 PM

wow, I exually learned something, thx buddy.

FlyingIguana · 05-20-2002, 11:50 PM

nice post

Brad Mitchell · 05-20-2002, 11:51 PM

Flying Iguana - I should note that your host has good bandwidth, hardware and real network professionals

Like Whoa is quality!

Brad

Lightning · 05-20-2002, 11:51 PM

Well that was very well written. Basically it is right on the money.

eroswebmaster · 05-20-2002, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sinomatic
wow, I exually learned something, thx buddy.

No shit me too

It puts things into perspective.
I at this point am paying more for my hosting than I was before but I have had virtually no problems...so it's paying off.

jimmy3way · 05-20-2002, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eroswebmaster

No shit me too

It puts things into perspective.
I at this point am paying more for my hosting than I was before but I have had virtually no problems...so it's paying off.

True dat.

The part that rang truest was about the actual servers rented to virtual accounts. I was with this one guy who went on and on about his ping time, yet his box couldn't deliver pages any faster than a fucking fax machine.

FlyingIguana · 05-21-2002, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
Flying Iguana - I should note that your host has good bandwidth, hardware and real network professionals Like Whoa is quality!

Brad

i've been pretty impressed with likewhoa

i just did tracert's to most of the hosts offering bandwidth for around a buck a gig. almost everyone of them uses cogent. guess it would be mass confusion if cogent went bankrupt. tgp scripts would be blacklisting half their submitters. free hosting companies that are still around would have a shitload of ppl joining.

chodadog · 05-21-2002, 12:02 AM

Jesus Christ Brad. I like the way you put the little "2 cents" at the bottom. Just a tad more than 2 don't you think?!

But yes, a good read. Very informative.

Amputate Your Head · 05-21-2002, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chodadog
Jesus Christ Brad. I like the way you put the little "2 cents" at the bottom. Just a tad more than 2 don't you think?!

But yes, a good read. Very informative.

more like $2 bucks......

chodadog · 05-21-2002, 12:11 AM

snarfs · 05-21-2002, 01:01 AM

I wonder if he used a word processor before posting that. Very nice paragraphs. Nice formatting.

palm.com only has a single OC12 verio line.

ProgGod · 05-21-2002, 01:33 AM

I would just like to add what you said is not always true... we don't buy one megabit of cogent bandwidth, and i think my prices speak for themselves.

When you have your own network, but large amounts from tier1 providers, you can afford to sell for low rates, and still offer the best 24 hour support. Its all these hosts that are reselling someone elses bandwidth, who resell someone elses bandwidth, who don't have any of their own facilities, who don't have any real control over their pricing.

There is no point in using cogent in my opinion, the money you save is just not worth it..

boneprone · 05-21-2002, 02:00 AM

Very good post.
I have been telling this to friends for months now.

It seems they arent really listening.
Ive provided access to alternatives before its too late and I just dont get why they still do what they do.

And about cogent just plain old shutting down?
Ive said that as well.

The Financals just dont look very good.

Getting fucked is something that should be avoided not encouraged.

ive consulted webmasters before about this, and i dont mind doing it again. Ive always been one to say you get what you pay for, and if its too good to be true it usually is.

Do your homework people. Just dont jump into something.

If ya need a hook up or reconmendation hit me up.
Un biased opinons here. There are a lot of good companies out there. And not all of em are expensive.

66883099

RaGe · 05-21-2002, 02:10 AM

Great post

One thing you should remember - Cogent is backed by Cisco. Its unlikely that they'll go out of business anytime soon, Cisco is not stupid.

Due · 05-21-2002, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
Amp - I was DUE for a good rant!!

You where NOT me

I bet you wish though

Brad Mitchell · 05-21-2002, 02:41 AM

Snarfs - Nah, my rant was free-form... that's just how I type ;)

ProgGod - I'm not suggesting that hosting companies selling Tier 1 bandwidth can't sell for discount prices. I do all the things you do to achieve my lower cost structure. Pricing to the hosting customer is just another business decision. High price for low volume, low price for high volume.

Rage - Cogent IS backed by Cisco, you're right. However, you should follow my logic. Cisco backs Cogent so they can sell more hardware and grow the marketplace. There is currently a huge surplus of bandwidth. By in large, the hosting marketplace is a shrinking and consolidating one. At the most, you have some customers moving from other providers to Cogent. Look at Cisco's stock prices... If customers are merely moving around, there's a zero net gain for Cisco in hardware sales. Besides, what the hell are the chances that these Cogent resellers are purchasing ANY Cisco gear?

At the end of the day Cogent needs to be able to make money on it's own without capital infusions. We've all seen that the marketplace of investors has changed since the bottom fell out of the stock market. People expect companies to make money now. Ultimately, if Cogent can't deliver to investors they'll have to close their doors. Their business model is weak - did you know that several similar companies like Cogent have already gone out of business?

Brad

RaGe · 05-21-2002, 02:50 AM

You can say the same about just about any tech company right now - the economy, especially the tech industry, has been very bad. Tons of companies have gone out of business, and I'm sure many like Cogent have as well, like you said. The difference is that Cogent has the financial backing of Cisco to get them through the rough times and onto greener days.

The market is going back up, and the tech companies that survived will be making money again.

Hey, if Cogent went out of business, I'm sure we'd all eventually benefit in the hosting industry - prices would go back up to "normal" levels and maybe we'd all be making more money. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

By the way, you did hear the news about Verio laying off hundreds of employees and closing many of their data centers about 3 months ago, right?

Smegma · 05-21-2002, 04:12 AM

Hey Sin -

I usually couldn?t be baited into these topics, but wanted to chime in on this one and agree with your position on this.

Please see my rant of two weeks ago on the same topic.

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=59228

As for most hosting providers lying about the hardware they put customers on, I can see where some could draw such a conclusion seeing they lack direct contact with the hardware, however, a blanket statement like that is a little unfair to those who run quality hosting companies, and pay out the ass for quality gear. You know who we are... we are the ones usually getting bitched at for our prices being too high.. LOL

Contrary to some beliefs, we are not all scum bag, penny pinching, lying cheating assholes.. however, just like any industry.. a few of those types do exist and give the rest of us bad raps.

Best,

Ray
XFR Networks Corp
http://www.xfr.com

Gemini · 05-21-2002, 04:34 AM

SOME folks shouldn't be legally allowed to type CEO all at once.

FATPad · 05-21-2002, 04:41 AM

Wouldn't hold your breath on Cogent closing down anytime soon.

Brown Bear · 05-21-2002, 05:01 AM

Long live Cogent!

VeriSexy · 05-21-2002, 05:20 AM

Well if Cogent dies and your in a Colo hotel your fine. They have a full menu of carriers to choose from and just do a cross connect. Cogent might last 6 months of 2 years or more. Stop guessing who will die next since most telecoms are loosing money

There are also commands that you can use in telnet to see exactly what kind of hardware your machine is built of.

dmesg

FATPad · 05-21-2002, 05:34 AM

Got a few questions.

Did Cogent build their own infrastructure from the ground up? If so, how much did it cost and how long did it take?

dantheman · 05-21-2002, 05:39 AM

nice post. well written and on the money.

As your granddaddy told you years ago. You get what you pay for!

Good job brad.

Milton · 05-21-2002, 05:57 AM

Thumbelina · 05-21-2002, 06:15 AM

Nice !!!

I enjoyed the "article" very much, every point backed up by facts and numbers.
I WAS LOOKING FOR A BIBLIOGRAPHY.

I GIVE IT AN A-

wired1 · 05-21-2002, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Got a few questions.

Did Cogent build their own infrastructure from the ground up? If so, how much did it cost and how long did it take?

From my understanding, no.

Cogent has leased dark fiber from others for there national network. Yipes who had (just filed chapter 11) a much better Gig e network of there own, built there own.

but dont quote me on it...

And I agree with Brad on Cisco involvement, they have there own investors to answer to, they arent going to keep afloat a network that wont contintue to buy large volumes of hardware from them.

I think cogent is great for TGP galleries and cj's ect.., and hopefully they can become profitable, but it doesnt look good. I just wouldnt throw any site that is important on it, particularly if you care about any traffic outside of north America...

Tam · 05-21-2002, 07:31 AM

THANK YOU!!! I have found myself in the last few days having to look for another host and I have looked at these cogent things, I was being told that it was bad hosting, but until now no one offered ALOT of information about this type of hosting, so I for one, amd very happy to finally see a good explanation that I can understand. LOL

Thanks so much for making this clear enough where evn us non-techie types can understand it........ LUCKILY I didn't go for that type of hosting in the end or I would be worried now.

Brad Mitchell · 05-21-2002, 08:17 AM

Ray (XFR) - you must be one of the good guys. Just last night one of your clients was ranting and raving about how much he loved your service. Said he was on a company using Cogent bandwidth and 'was down more then he was up'!

Tam - Hey, if you'd like a quality dedicated server for a great price give me a call or send an E-mail

Brad

SleazyDream · 05-21-2002, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
If all you're doing is TGPs then I suppose Cogent bandwidth is fine with triple the latency,

Only wanabe's use crappy bandwidth for TGP galleries. Good luck gettign a reputable TGP to post a gallery on an unreliable host - maybe once or twice but if it fucks up your name is mud with them and you won't post again. Most TGPs use PRICY RELIABLE QUALITY hosting for their own sites and expect gallery makers to do the same.
I use Flying Croc - not the cheapest by any stretch but they are NEVER down and service is INCREDIBLE.

You get what you pay for. Period.

Nysus · 05-21-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire

.... hosted on a dual processing server with 1 gig of ram and SCSI hard drives he's probably a lying motherfucker.
....

SinEmpire, I'd just like to mention that I do indeed host my virtual clients on a dual cpu server with 2 gigs of ram, and two SCSI drives in RAID 1 config.

I know you weren't trying to generalize, just thought I'd say that there actually are people who are honest in their dealings.

Cheers,
Matt

Lightning · 05-21-2002, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Wouldn't hold your breath on Cogent closing down anytime soon.

Obviously you did not read, and most likely do not understand basic economics. Sit back and enjoy the next few months with you marginal at best cogent bandwidth. Then lets have this topic brought back up...

Like SleazyDream also stated, you do not and will not see any of the Real players even considering cogent ever. None of the big paysites or tgp's or any of the real Hosts Like Candid, Techie Media, SinEmpire etc... will never touch that crap..why?? because they know better

Look for now if your a gallery maker, and are happy with that, and only make enough to buy beer and smokes, then cogent is good for you. It will save you a few bucks for a little while longer. But thats about it.

ProgGod · 05-21-2002, 09:52 AM

Let me tell you its not IF cogent will go out of business its WHEN they will go out of business. Cisco right now is doing very badly themselves, so I would count on their decisions to bail you out.

Cogent gets their bandwidth from peering, that is how they are able to get it so cheap. They bought a bunch of ISPs two of which were tier1 so they were able to immediately have all their bandwidth for free. The problem is they went around announcing this to everyone. Basically peering means a company like Verio decides to give you free access to their network. You can send all the data to their customers you want.

But cogent was stupid, they announced this in a large public forum. Already some tier1 providers have guaranteed they are gonna no longer allow cogent to peer with them. Some providers have told cogent they will no longer allow cogent to peer any more bandwidth with them.

This is one of the reasons you see cogent finding any excuse to kill some gige customers. This is one of the problems cogent routes are very slow to some parts of the country. You will constantly getting 300ms pings to certain places on the cogent network.

The biggest problem with cogent is alot of people don't even realize what makes them bad. The "Its fast for me" mentality isn't a good way to decide on a provider. There are plenty of people around the world that can barely load a cogent page.

Fletch XXX · 05-21-2002, 10:59 AM

I have webair hosting AND use Cologroup, I can tell you I see the difference everyday now.

DrGuile · 05-21-2002, 11:41 AM

Very nice post.

The math is indeed very simple and you do get what you pay for.

Of course, when you have a high volume of traffic, what you pay for is a lot smaller ;)

it might be spam, but its an honest recommendation. We use:

Mach 10 Hosting
http://www.mach10hosting.com/

RK · 05-21-2002, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Got a few questions.

Did Cogent build their own infrastructure from the ground up? If so, how much did it cost and how long did it take?

Some they built, some they bought and much of it they lease.

About Yipes, they went Chapter 11 to prevent Level 3 from disconnecting them. Yipes do not have their own nation-wide network as far as I know.

SinEmpire - Very well said. Any objections to copy and distribution?

Techie Media · 05-21-2002, 11:58 AM

SinEmpire, I have to tell you the truth, your post was very well written. What you say is very true and accurate. This was the best written post on this topic i have seen.

deniska · 05-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Good posts,

Some very good points mentioned here. The well established hosts will always thrive to achieve the best quality network and support for their customers. By offering real redundancy, real multihomed network, real 24 hour support. I really don?t feel there is a big problem with using cogent bandwidth. If price is important factor for you then cogent will be your best bet. That?s why some of us drive saturn?s and others roll around in brand new cl55?s. Unfortunately some hosts false advertise their services, promising things they don?t even have. Some even resort to comparing their host to others by using one factor, which is price. When sopping for a real host remember you get what you pay for.

wired1 · 05-21-2002, 12:32 PM

Very good points indeed!

Thats why I colo all of my boxes at GHETTO-COLO. They use Sprint

Brad Mitchell · 05-21-2002, 01:14 PM

I'm really glad I did this post. It's nice to finally see some positive feedback on quality hosting!! It's reassuring after seeing all the bashing that goes on here on GFY with hosts that charge reasonable rates

What I find funny is that there are a LOT of people that haven't posted in here!! lol lol They seem to have a lot to say all the time... but not in this thread! hehe

Brad

Jamie · 05-21-2002, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Here's the math at a 50% sell through: $7500 - $3000 - $700 = $3800/month as a gross profit.

Technically your pretty close when presenting those numbers but there are more factors involved. Your assuming that every host is only hosting. For many of the smaller hosts they generate money by running their own sites. For example: using 10/Mbps of Cogent to generate $7,000 of revenue. 10/Mbps costing you $300 on a 100/mbps line. That's a very nice profit margin. Or take a 6/mbps site generating $20,000 in revenue a month, even better. It really comes down to the hosts business plan, if they know what they are doing they will be fine with or without Cogent. And $3800 gross profit is A LOT of money to a 1 man host. So there's nothing wrong with $3,800 gross profit.

For any "new" host to think they can sustain themselves on Hosting alone without a big bankroll is not going to make it. They have to have other revenue streams besides hosting to pay for the new hardware. Or a nice Credit Limit with Dell Business.

I also think you can't deny the fact that there is a market for Cogent bandwidth. NO mater how many people bash on Cogent, people are willing to pay for it. As an oportunists it only makes sense to sell what people want. If people want Cogent then I'm going to sell it to them [period]. The beauty of a router is if Cogent goes away tomorrow, we'll just reroute the traffic through Verio or whomever. So the threat of Cogent dissappearing tomorrow doesn't really exist to us. And if the host has a solid business plan, making a 500+/Mbps commitment to a Tier 1 provider won't be a problem. With that kind of commitment your cost per meg won't hurt the profit margins too badly.

So until Cogent goes away or gets bought out, enjoy the profit margins. Thats my philosophy.

p.s. Denis, you better have the AMG package on that bad boy.

Amputate Your Head · 05-21-2002, 01:25 PM

I've read that post three times now..... it rules....

I vote it for Post of the Year.

letshunt · 05-21-2002, 01:29 PM

I am a LAN/WAN guy by day...so I don't get much into internet hosting for the adult business.

However, I am paid to design VPN systems using Citrix, IP enabled frame relay and other similiar technologies. I can vouch for the WAN part of Brads post. I see Verio and shudder because I know the problems that are going to occur. It is a rare week when they don't have a router problem...that is the usual excuse given. Tier one or not...they are typically a problem and we move the client to a backbone that is more stable and reliable.

As for the hardware argument, I love to see Cisco stuff all the way through the system...you start hearing alot about Nortel or Linksys...or any other type of non Cisco router...well, you are in for some long days.

On the other hand, you guys with these giant dual processor boxes are using a cannon to kill a fly....typically your computer is going to cache the website first thing and deliver from that cache until something changes. A webserver is basically a file and print server with some bells and whistles. RAM is a great thing to have but let me ask you..how much processing does a webserver do...a little parsing and that is it. The exception would be if you are running applications over the web...but those utilities are typically relegated to VPN systems.

Right on Brad, tho...I just changed hosts and drilled the guy for an hour about hardware, connectivity and throughput ...and the origins of all.

missnglnk · 05-21-2002, 01:31 PM

Things are not always what they seem...

Here's the beginning of the problem, back when Cogent started announcing their super low pricing, everyone was wondering how the fuck could they offer bandwidth so fucking cheap. Yeah, we knew they'd do a large portion via peering, but how would they get peering with the tier 1 providers? Where was their infrastructure, etc.

To add even more to the confusion, their web server was hosted off an ExecPC DSL connection in Seattle at the time, and their two nameservers were gatekeeper.cogentco.com (colocated machine at some facility in Oregon on a 10Mbps Ethernet link) and monet.titania.net (machine sitting off of a silly ass dedicated 56k dial-up connection owned by Joseph T. Klein, original person who was in charge of peering at Cogent).

Anyways, network finally rolls out, and they're trying to sell their asses off (took months before they started doing double digits of traffic in major cities) but, after each ISP is pondering how they're still going to pull this off, they start receiving peering applications in their mailboxes.

Ok, so they have the little guys covered, how are they going to get the big boys to peer with them? Around this time, UUnet released their peering policy, and at the time, Cogent was nowhere near of meeting those requirements. So what do you have now? Tier 1 and 2 network operators that are definitely sure that Cogent is going to fail due to their lack of getting their bandwidth cost down.

Tier 1 NetRail announces that they're filing for bankruptcy, Cogent sees them as an opportunity to achieve Tier 1 status, as does new startup, Aleron. Cogent and Aleron go into a bidding war, and Cogent comes out on top with NetRail, they also go into a bidding war over bankrupt Telia, and Aleron comes out on top in that one.

Anyways, these purchases made the news, but what didn't make the news was the layoffs. Before the purchase, Cogent laid off nearly half of its engineering staff which was made up of ex-Digex employees, bringing the total count down to 8-10, then after the Netrail acquisition, the entire engineering staff of NetRail was given the boot. Some see this as Cogent running a tight ship, or as Cogent tightening their wallet.

So now Cogent has all this peering, should be a decent network, right? Not when Netrail's original peering connections were established at DS-3 (45Mbps) and OC-3 (155Mbps) speeds, all it takes is one or two Cogent customers pushing line-rate to flood that pipe, and most of the pipes were full, i.e. their only connection to the Level3 network was out of San Francisco, and on traceroutes, you'll see this full pipe most of the time during the day, example, today:

12 gigabitethernet4-1.core1.SanJose1.Level3.net (64.159.2.69) 184.200 ms 185.866 ms 184.009 ms
13 so-2-1-3.pr1.SanFrancisco1.CA.us.netrail.net (205.215.1.229) 365.807 ms 360.171 ms 362.528 ms
14 GigE2-1.tr1.SanFrancisco1.CA.us.netrail.net (205.215.12.1) 359.351 ms 361.219 ms 359.307 ms
15 p13-0.core02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.28.57) 345.223 ms 353.359 ms 340.751 ms
16 p15-0.core01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.69) 485.132 ms 428.902 ms 488.983 ms

8 nr1-p350.paix.ip.att.net (12.123.221.2) [AS 7018] 72 msec 72 msec 68 msec
9 205.215.1.169 [AS 4006] 72 msec 200 msec 204 msec
10 gige2-1.tr1.sanfrancisco1.ca.us.netrail.net (205.215.12.1) [AS 4006] 200 msec 200 msec 200 msec
11 p13-0.core02.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.28.57) [AS 16631] 204 msec 208 msec 204 msec
12 p15-0.core01.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.4.69) [AS 16631] 200 msec 404 msec 204 msec

This brings up another issue, why won't Cogent establish an interconnect in Washington, DC or in other locations with Level3 or other providers? The reason is that, Cogent didn't meet larger networks' requirements, plus these people are already pissed off for Cogent taking their customers, and thirdly, Cogent just forced their way into their network with the acquisition of NetRail who had previous interconnects with these networks.

So now, you have REALLY pissed off networks who want to retaliate, so what do these networks do? They simply say, no additional interconnects into our network or circuit upgrades, and they have a right to do so because it's their network, but they do honor the current interconnects due to the original contracts with NetRail. Rumor is that Sprint and other providers have already voiced this to Cogent, and I'm pretty sure many others will because they're tired of hearing "$30 bucks per meg" floating around the office.

So what do you have now? A network that's lagged as fuck during normal US business hours and that can't be upgraded without raising prices (which they're doing), but long story short, the plan was to get customers in the door, and jack up prices, so watch for phase 2 of the operation (assuming they don't go bankrupt beforehand).

So now your Cogent powered network has customers who are pissed off at these large fucking round trip times, slowness during the day, you might be making a profit, but you also are now operating a revolving door hosting company (group comes in due to low pricing, group walks out due to shitty network).

But, hey, you get what you pay for.

mike503 · 05-21-2002, 01:34 PM

go for some place that has multiple feeds into the same building. some may call it a "colo hotel" - you'll benefit because their network is fed from different carriers and since it's all in the same building, the hosts you go with don't have to pay pricey local loop costs and can pass that on to you.

places like fci are housed in the westin building up in seattle, which houses most of the telco carriers on the west coast. they only have to pay for the amount of bandwidth they want, no local loop (normally the line ran from building <-> telco) - those type of companies are where your money is well spent. because they don't have to pay local loop they can buy bandwidth in more quantities as well as diversify their composition of carriers, it's a win/win.

Brad Mitchell · 05-21-2002, 01:40 PM

great post missnglnk!!!

Lots of great posts in here

Brad

05-20-2002, 11:38 PM	#1
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	MY RANT!! Cogent Bandwidth and Hosting Economics. This shit cracks me up. Below is my hosting rant... If you host on a server with Cogent bandwidth you might learn something about economics and the proponderance of false advertising in the hosting business if you read this. There is good and bad in everything - there are good hosts, there are bad hosts. Sure, sometimes shit happens to good hosts. Bad hosts have shit happening all the time. This is not directed at any one company in particular. You usually get what you pay for. All of the large affiliate programs use bandwidth provided by companies like Level 3, Verio and the like. There is a reason for that, it's better bandwidth. They also pay more for management and hardware. Why? All that stuff costs moola. If all you're doing is TGPs then I suppose Cogent bandwidth is fine with triple the latency, just hope they don't go out of business or you're fucked. A lot of hosting companies advertise falsely all the time. You're never going to see your server - you don't know what the fuck you're hosted on. So, if you're paying $200 per month and your host is telling you that you're hosted on a dual processing server with 1 gig of ram and SCSI hard drives he's probably a lying motherfucker. To add insult to injury, many hosts that advertise redundant bandwidth don't have it. Take, for example, anyone that sells Cogent. There is not a single company selling Cogent represented here on GFY that has 1000mbits from Cogent and 1000mbits from a Verio or Level 3 as a backup. I bet there isn't even one that has 100mbit from each of two providers. The reason is simple: 100mbit from Cogent is $3000, 10mbit from a Verio or Level 3 is $3000. DO THE MATH. You can't sell bandwidth for .50 or even 1.00 per gig if you have to pay both providers - the cheap one as primary and the expensive for backup. Of course dedicated hosting is optimal. However, based on sheer numbers I'd bet most people in the adult business are doing virtual hosting. It's easy to tell someone to do dedicated hosting but if they're building their business chances are virtual hosting is the better value. Just because dedicated is 'cooler' then virtual doesn't excuse hosts that sell virtual hosting to unsuspecting webmasters and deliver shoddy performance. Here too, you get what you pay for. If you're paying $50 per month for 100 gigs you're bound to have a bad experience. Can virtual hosting be a great option? Absolutely!! Again, do the math. If 100mbit from Cogent costs $3000 and the host is selling for .50 per gig he's got a theoretical 30,000 outbound gigs that he can sell (assuming 10% of the traffic is inbound). If a host sold all 30,000 gigs at .50 each he'd gross $15,000. That, minus his hard costs of $3000 for his 100mbit from Cogent and approximately $700 for a full cabinet (because you have to pay for space in a colo facility)... EXCEPT, you can't sell 'ALL' of your available bandwidth or you have a bunch of pissed off customers. Why? Well, anyone hosting that doesn't use MRTG graphs doesn't realize that your peak bandwidth utilization is upwards of twice your average. What does this all mean? If you sell 50mbit of bandwidth you better have a 100mbit pipe so that you can accomodate your customers peaks and valleys without losing packets and network performance. When a network tops out, everything gets delayed. And where are we now? Well, if you have a host with a 100mbit pipe from Cogent he's paying $3000 for that and if he uses one cabinet in the facility (space for 40 1U servers) add about $700 in rent (average). He can only sell 50% for great performance or maybe as high as 70% if he's lucky. Here's the math at a 50% sell through: $7500 - $3000 - $700 = $3800/month as a gross profit. If he's selling you dedicated hosting, he's got margin on the server rent and management. If he's selling you virtual hosting, those hardware and management costs are straight up out of his bottom line. So what can you possibly get for .50 per gig? Well, if you're virtual hosting you're going to be on a shit box that's overloaded. In general you're going to be lucky if your host has expensive routers, switches and hubs. You're also going to be lucky if you're in a proper hosting facility with 24-7 security, proper fire supressiom, raised flooring, proper HVAC and redundant power to the facility. Oh, and speaking of hardware, you're going to be lucky if your server is actually plugged into a UPS. What can you expect from this hypothetical host in terms of support? Well, if his best case gross-net is $3800 per month... YOU CAN'T HIRE A NETWORK ENGINEER FOR $35,000 PER YEAR, LET ALONE 3 OF THEM FOR 24 HOUR SUPPORT. Chances are there are no employees, just contractors and friends that do favors. If the server 'rent' and 'management' fees aren't very high then you're really playing russian roulette. If they're low do the math - price out your server as they have it spec'd. Example? $300 per month for a server = $3600 per year. A dual processing server with dual IDE drives and 1 gig of ram is at about $2000 if it's a name brand server like a Dell or Compaq. If it was built by the host, who the fuck would want that? Shitty hardware is another discussion so go fuck yourself tightass. So, this host has $1600 per year in gross profit on your account, or $133 per month to pay for installation, maintenance, upgrades and network emergencies. That's some real hypothetical math... However, I'm sure there are alot of experienced hosts out there that would agree I'm not too far off the mark for this size hosting operation. What's my point to all of this? Well, currently many of you are enjoying cheap bandwidth and I think that's great. You better hope that the companies out there selling the pipe don't go out of business because you'll be back to paying $2-$3 per gig. Cogent isn't profitable and since they're undercutting all the Tier 1 providers nobody wants to give them peering arrangements anymore. What else? I find that most hosts selling shitty bandwidth also have a shitty network infrastructure, crappy hardware and false advertising about redundant bandwidth. So, good luck to all of you! In as much as you all BITCH and MOAN on this board about paying NOTHING for hosting most of the guys making bank are paying good money to their hosts. Is that a coincidence? You be the judge. I laugh every time I see someone on here making fun of a host for charging more than $2 per gig. You get what you pay for. The differences between cheap and expensive hosting is generally not like going to the grocery store and getting Frosted Mini Wheats versus the Generic brand. We all know those two cereals are made in the same factory... but the difference between cheap ass hosting and average hosting prices are typically indicative of two entirely different product and service offerings. Why is it so important that something like Cogent stay in business? Well, if they don't virtually all of you big TGP posters would be hard pressed to make a nice profit. Conversions are shit and you need to give away a gigs just to get a sale. If you had to pay an aggregate of $5-6 per gig (includes: bandwidth, hardware, management) you'd at least be a lot less profitable. In closing, just because you need cheap hosting to make your business model work and accept compromises on the quality and performance of your hosting - that doesn't mean the rest of us are in the same boat. When you run paysites, an affiliate program, a search engine, or any site that gets bookmark traffic you need to spoil your surfers with good performance... that costs money. I can't wait to see all the disgruntled replies. Show me the money! Point out to me all the big companies that use Cogent bandwidth. Of all the people that exhibit at the Internext shows, whose products are hosted on this bandwidth? Live Feeds? Content Plug-Ins? Pay Sites? Guess what, they're all paying more for hosting then .50-1.00 per gig and you probably couldn't switch them over if you begged them. Does this cheap hosting work for alot of you? Absolutely! And, I hope it continues to go well. I just thought I'd enlighten a few of you about the REAL world of hosting economics. Perhaps you'll have a few new questions to ask next time you're shopping for a host. Cheers! Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-20-2002, 11:44 PM	#2
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	check it out! Brad's goin' off!!! __________________ SIG TOO BIG

05-20-2002, 11:48 PM	#4
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Amp - I was DUE for a good rant!! Mr. Fiction - are you serious? I got pics...! How much are you going to make this month on Phone Sex with SinTalk...? Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999 Last edited by Brad Mitchell; 05-20-2002 at 11:50 PM..

05-20-2002, 11:51 PM	#7
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Flying Iguana - I should note that your host has good bandwidth, hardware and real network professionals Like Whoa is quality! Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-21-2002, 01:33 AM	#16
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	I would just like to add what you said is not always true... we don't buy one megabit of cogent bandwidth, and i think my prices speak for themselves. When you have your own network, but large amounts from tier1 providers, you can afford to sell for low rates, and still offer the best 24 hour support. Its all these hosts that are reselling someone elses bandwidth, who resell someone elses bandwidth, who don't have any of their own facilities, who don't have any real control over their pricing. There is no point in using cogent in my opinion, the money you save is just not worth it.. __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-20-2002, 11:46 PM	#3
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Can you post some graphs to go along with all of that text. Thanks.

05-20-2002, 11:48 PM	#5
sinomatic Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 149	wow, I exually learned something, thx buddy.

05-20-2002, 11:50 PM	#6
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	nice post

05-20-2002, 11:51 PM	#8
Lightning Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 870	Well that was very well written. Basically it is right on the money.

05-21-2002, 12:02 AM	#12
chodadog Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 9,736	Jesus Christ Brad. I like the way you put the little "2 cents" at the bottom. Just a tad more than 2 don't you think?! But yes, a good read. Very informative.

05-21-2002, 12:11 AM	#14
chodadog Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 9,736

05-21-2002, 01:01 AM	#15
snarfs Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 64	I wonder if he used a word processor before posting that. Very nice paragraphs. Nice formatting. palm.com only has a single OC12 verio line.

05-21-2002, 02:00 AM	#17
boneprone Hall Of Fame Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland Oregon USA Posts: 34,415	Very good post. I have been telling this to friends for months now. It seems they arent really listening. Ive provided access to alternatives before its too late and I just dont get why they still do what they do. And about cogent just plain old shutting down? Ive said that as well. The Financals just dont look very good. Getting fucked is something that should be avoided not encouraged. ive consulted webmasters before about this, and i dont mind doing it again. Ive always been one to say you get what you pay for, and if its too good to be true it usually is. Do your homework people. Just dont jump into something. If ya need a hook up or reconmendation hit me up. Un biased opinons here. There are a lot of good companies out there. And not all of em are expensive. 66883099 __________________ Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones Bow to the Power - Still BP4L http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame Learn about it kids. Last edited by boneprone; 05-21-2002 at 02:03 AM..

05-21-2002, 02:10 AM	#18
RaGe Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,158	Great post One thing you should remember - Cogent is backed by Cisco. Its unlikely that they'll go out of business anytime soon, Cisco is not stupid. __________________ Get your guaranteed gallery listings on bunnyteens.com! Over 650k hits daily. One of the original thumb TGPs! Click here.

05-21-2002, 02:41 AM	#20
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Snarfs - Nah, my rant was free-form... that's just how I type ;) ProgGod - I'm not suggesting that hosting companies selling Tier 1 bandwidth can't sell for discount prices. I do all the things you do to achieve my lower cost structure. Pricing to the hosting customer is just another business decision. High price for low volume, low price for high volume. Rage - Cogent IS backed by Cisco, you're right. However, you should follow my logic. Cisco backs Cogent so they can sell more hardware and grow the marketplace. There is currently a huge surplus of bandwidth. By in large, the hosting marketplace is a shrinking and consolidating one. At the most, you have some customers moving from other providers to Cogent. Look at Cisco's stock prices... If customers are merely moving around, there's a zero net gain for Cisco in hardware sales. Besides, what the hell are the chances that these Cogent resellers are purchasing ANY Cisco gear? At the end of the day Cogent needs to be able to make money on it's own without capital infusions. We've all seen that the marketplace of investors has changed since the bottom fell out of the stock market. People expect companies to make money now. Ultimately, if Cogent can't deliver to investors they'll have to close their doors. Their business model is weak - did you know that several similar companies like Cogent have already gone out of business? Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-21-2002, 02:50 AM	#21
RaGe Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,158	You can say the same about just about any tech company right now - the economy, especially the tech industry, has been very bad. Tons of companies have gone out of business, and I'm sure many like Cogent have as well, like you said. The difference is that Cogent has the financial backing of Cisco to get them through the rough times and onto greener days. The market is going back up, and the tech companies that survived will be making money again. Hey, if Cogent went out of business, I'm sure we'd all eventually benefit in the hosting industry - prices would go back up to "normal" levels and maybe we'd all be making more money. I just don't see it happening any time soon. By the way, you did hear the news about Verio laying off hundreds of employees and closing many of their data centers about 3 months ago, right? __________________ Get your guaranteed gallery listings on bunnyteens.com! Over 650k hits daily. One of the original thumb TGPs! Click here. Last edited by RaGe; 05-21-2002 at 02:53 AM..

05-21-2002, 04:12 AM	#22
Smegma Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,751	Hey Sin - I usually couldn?t be baited into these topics, but wanted to chime in on this one and agree with your position on this. Please see my rant of two weeks ago on the same topic. http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=59228 As for most hosting providers lying about the hardware they put customers on, I can see where some could draw such a conclusion seeing they lack direct contact with the hardware, however, a blanket statement like that is a little unfair to those who run quality hosting companies, and pay out the ass for quality gear. You know who we are... we are the ones usually getting bitched at for our prices being too high.. LOL Contrary to some beliefs, we are not all scum bag, penny pinching, lying cheating assholes.. however, just like any industry.. a few of those types do exist and give the rest of us bad raps. Best, Ray XFR Networks Corp http://www.xfr.com

05-21-2002, 04:34 AM	#23
Gemini Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: o-HI-o Posts: 7,183	SOME folks shouldn't be legally allowed to type CEO all at once.

05-21-2002, 04:41 AM	#24
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Wouldn't hold your breath on Cogent closing down anytime soon. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

05-21-2002, 05:01 AM	#25
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	Long live Cogent! __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

05-21-2002, 05:20 AM	#26
VeriSexy Join The Royal Family Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 25,463	Well if Cogent dies and your in a Colo hotel your fine. They have a full menu of carriers to choose from and just do a cross connect. Cogent might last 6 months of 2 years or more. Stop guessing who will die next since most telecoms are loosing money There are also commands that you can use in telnet to see exactly what kind of hardware your machine is built of. dmesg __________________ Looking for a KICK ASS TEEN SPONSOR? Check out ROYAL CASH - THE KING OF TEEN! Incredible webmaster tools FHGs, Morphing Blog and RSS Feeds, Embedded FLV & WMV Videos. With TOP RATIO Sites like TeenStarsOnly.com - Earn $$ with our New Site & Bonus Payouts!! ATMovs.com \| iTeenVideo.com \| TeenSexMovs.com \| TeenSexMania.com Last edited by VeriSexy; 05-21-2002 at 05:34 AM..

05-21-2002, 05:34 AM	#27
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Got a few questions. Did Cogent build their own infrastructure from the ground up? If so, how much did it cost and how long did it take? __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

05-21-2002, 05:39 AM	#28
dantheman OG Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,308	nice post. well written and on the money. As your granddaddy told you years ago. You get what you pay for! Good job brad. __________________ M3server.com VPS>Get your 2nd month free Ded>$100 off your 2nd month since 1996 icq-25135623 dannyh at~m3server DOT com

05-21-2002, 05:57 AM	#29
Milton Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mauritius Posts: 1,118	hnmm

05-21-2002, 06:15 AM	#30
Thumbelina Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 675	Nice !!! I enjoyed the "article" very much, every point backed up by facts and numbers. I WAS LOOKING FOR A BIBLIOGRAPHY. I GIVE IT AN A- __________________ <a href="http://www.bimbolinks.com"><img src="http://www.12circle.com/banners/bimbo_120x60.jpg"border="0"></a><BR>

05-21-2002, 07:31 AM	#32
Tam Rude Bitch Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: In your face Posts: 8,507	THANK YOU!!! I have found myself in the last few days having to look for another host and I have looked at these cogent things, I was being told that it was bad hosting, but until now no one offered ALOT of information about this type of hosting, so I for one, amd very happy to finally see a good explanation that I can understand. LOL Thanks so much for making this clear enough where evn us non-techie types can understand it........ LUCKILY I didn't go for that type of hosting in the end or I would be worried now. __________________ Get in Touch on Telegram if you need a hardworker - (since 1999) - All About Me!

05-21-2002, 08:17 AM	#33
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Ray (XFR) - you must be one of the good guys. Just last night one of your clients was ranting and raving about how much he loved your service. Said he was on a company using Cogent bandwidth and 'was down more then he was up'! Tam - Hey, if you'd like a quality dedicated server for a great price give me a call or send an E-mail Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-21-2002, 09:52 AM	#37
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	Let me tell you its not IF cogent will go out of business its WHEN they will go out of business. Cisco right now is doing very badly themselves, so I would count on their decisions to bail you out. Cogent gets their bandwidth from peering, that is how they are able to get it so cheap. They bought a bunch of ISPs two of which were tier1 so they were able to immediately have all their bandwidth for free. The problem is they went around announcing this to everyone. Basically peering means a company like Verio decides to give you free access to their network. You can send all the data to their customers you want. But cogent was stupid, they announced this in a large public forum. Already some tier1 providers have guaranteed they are gonna no longer allow cogent to peer with them. Some providers have told cogent they will no longer allow cogent to peer any more bandwidth with them. This is one of the reasons you see cogent finding any excuse to kill some gige customers. This is one of the problems cogent routes are very slow to some parts of the country. You will constantly getting 300ms pings to certain places on the cogent network. The biggest problem with cogent is alot of people don't even realize what makes them bad. The "Its fast for me" mentality isn't a good way to decide on a provider. There are plenty of people around the world that can barely load a cogent page. __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-21-2002, 10:59 AM	#38
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	I have webair hosting AND use Cologroup, I can tell you I see the difference everyday now. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

05-21-2002, 11:41 AM	#39
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	Very nice post. The math is indeed very simple and you do get what you pay for. Of course, when you have a high volume of traffic, what you pay for is a lot smaller ;) it might be spam, but its an honest recommendation. We use: Mach 10 Hosting http://www.mach10hosting.com/ __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

05-21-2002, 11:58 AM	#41
Techie Media Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 3,092	SinEmpire, I have to tell you the truth, your post was very well written. What you say is very true and accurate. This was the best written post on this topic i have seen. __________________ sales [AT] techiemedia.com

05-21-2002, 12:02 PM	#42
deniska Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Miami Beach, FL Posts: 1,053	Good posts, Some very good points mentioned here. The well established hosts will always thrive to achieve the best quality network and support for their customers. By offering real redundancy, real multihomed network, real 24 hour support. I really don?t feel there is a big problem with using cogent bandwidth. If price is important factor for you then cogent will be your best bet. That?s why some of us drive saturn?s and others roll around in brand new cl55?s. Unfortunately some hosts false advertise their services, promising things they don?t even have. Some even resort to comparing their host to others by using one factor, which is price. When sopping for a real host remember you get what you pay for.

05-21-2002, 12:32 PM	#43
wired1 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North Posts: 279	Very good points indeed! Thats why I colo all of my boxes at GHETTO-COLO. They use Sprint

05-21-2002, 01:14 PM	#44
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	I'm really glad I did this post. It's nice to finally see some positive feedback on quality hosting!! It's reassuring after seeing all the bashing that goes on here on GFY with hosts that charge reasonable rates What I find funny is that there are a LOT of people that haven't posted in here!! lol lol They seem to have a lot to say all the time... but not in this thread! hehe Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-21-2002, 01:25 PM	#46
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	I've read that post three times now..... it rules.... I vote it for Post of the Year. __________________ SIG TOO BIG