MY RANT!! Cogent Bandwidth and Hosting Economics. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

brutus · 05-21-2002, 02:00 PM

Wow - the first post I have printed for future reference from GFY... Absolutely valuable info.

I have been paying over 2$ per gig for the latest two years... I have seen how prices gone down down and down.... but I have been with my lovely host. They have nerver been cheapest ones, but... I have really got value ( no worries, minimum downtime ) for my hosting bills.

Switch from $2/ gig to $0.50/ gig and blow your business

DrGuile · 05-21-2002, 02:42 PM

just a small "devil's advocate" post.

Dont let your host get away with high bandwith prices.

the price of bandwith has come down and his still coming down. Use that to your advantage. Mention Cogent to them ( that always piss them off)

Dont be a sucker and go for underpowered, overcharged hosting companies. But dont be a sucker and overpay just because your server isnt coming down every couple hours.

;)

FATPad · 05-21-2002, 02:43 PM

Indeed. I still think Cogent was the best thing to ever happen to the hosting industry (at least from my perspective, hehehe).

ProgGod · 05-21-2002, 03:01 PM

The lowered prices have nothing to do with cogent, it has to do the fact that the market is having a huge decline..

boneprone · 05-21-2002, 03:36 PM

also true

dipshit moron retard · 05-21-2002, 04:47 PM

i think there are a lot of good points made about cogent and some of the hosting companys who use them, but you knuckleheads take 'you get what you pay for' way too literally and too often as your mantra. This 'slogan' u guys make it has a grain of truth to it but in a technical industry it doesn't neccesarily apply.

How many of you host your servers on linux and freebsd? using a FREE webserver, a FREE ftp server, a FREE ssh distro, FREE monitoring tools (mrtg cricket blah blah), FREE database, FREE compilers/build environment, FREE X server and on and on

How many of you regret this horrible decision and are in the process of paying big $ to "upgrade" to windows servers instead? Or better yet Solaris?

Just because its sun and microsoft it must be worlds better, right? It's the same thing with applying logic like "the first thing i look for is if they have all cisco gear" if you've ever really worked with cisco, extreme, foundry, arrowpoint's equipment ETC you know that frankly cisco is WAY overpriced and their performance and features SUCK in comparison. Cisco was an industry leader at one point but since then they've been living off their name. For the past 3-4 years most major internet companys have drifted away from cisco and are using a lot more foundry and extreme, because they offer more features, a better interface, and often times phonomenally better performance at 60% of cisco's pricepoint.

Cisco is not that great or brilliant of a company, have you ever used their first generation of any product line? Even their first set of dsl equipment a few years ago? It's always horrible under quality assured pieces of shit because they know people will buy it since it has the word cisco on it, and will just wait for the firmware upgrades over the comming years to smooth out the problems. All the great values that have come out of cisco the last couple years like their loadbalancers the "localdirector" that was a $20,000 pii-300 which would max out at 1000 connections before they bought out arrowpoint and restamped 'cisco' on them. How about cisco's PIX firewall? You really get your money's worth if you spend $10,000 to upgrade a piece of hardware on your switch just so you could route between vlans when every other vendor on the planet does this with software for 20% of the price, and with less hardware still manage to do true wire speed. Yahoo, exodus, earthlink you name it, all using foundry and other non-cisco or cisco-rebranded equipment for truly massive amounts of traffic.

This isn't intended to be a rant against cisco, but rather to make a point that because something costs a lot or a company has a recognizable name does not mean they have a superior product.
It's the same thing with saying "only use dell or compaq equipment", what the hell is that? You like paying a 100% markup?

You think theres some magic motherboard in the machine made by an ancient taiwanese kungfu motherfucker in a strawhat holding a bag full of moondust in one hand and a soldering iron in the other? They buy the exact same components you can, put them in a case, and charge you for a support contract, when any of the parts you buy yourself will have a 3 year warranty on them anyway. Now you can pay an extra $3000. Woopie! You get what you pay for, because $599 for a gig of ram, $99 for an upgrade from a celeron 850 to a piii 850 (no joke, check their webserver prices), $270 to UPGRADE from a 20gb drive to a 120gb drive is sold to you inside of a case that has a plastic "dell" logo on the front. WHOHOO BARGAIN CITY!@!# And hey, if you want to upgrade to a second* p3 processor, on their dual systems, its only $500 for a p3 1.13 ! You get what you pay for though because this processor was flown in personally via helicopter from the hollow center of the earth by a cyborg who stamps them individually with his testicles before they're blessed by 3 priests baptized and packaged in the reborn baby jesus's foreskin.

Speaking of value, to upgrade from a p3 1.13 to a p3 1.26 its only $100 difference, for a grand total of $599! GOOOO DELL. It's the same deal with compaq. Except for some extenuating circumstances (say you have so much money you really dont care and would just rather be raped in fees so that someone can come on site and swap in new ram for you once a year and you never have to think about it or whatever) it makes plenty of sense to buy the components saving a SHITLOAD of money and put the server together yourself (takes all of 20 minutes). Scoffing at people who do this is ignorant.

There seems to be almost a sort of social conditioning here where people who are more cost-conscientious
are ridiculed for being 'cheapskates' and whatever and the old chant is mindlessly repeated pay more pay more pay more. It looks to me like it just feeds on itself and allows people to try and justify guaging those who don't know any better. For instance, I asked jason from cologroup the other day how much he would charge for 1u of space. He offered $100. $100 for 1u of space a month on a rack that cost him less than a grand. There is air conditioning, power, all that to be taken into consideration too of course, but still thats $40 higher than the most expensive price i've ever seen for 1u of space including big colos like level3. Am i getting what I pay for with jason because hes got the bomb ass inch of space for me? Wheres the added value? Must be because that rack is made of adamantium?

No, he's just used to dealing with people who live blindly by the philosophy "You Get What You Pay For".

DrGuile · 05-21-2002, 05:01 PM

DMR,

as with all things, there is no hard set rule, its a case by case situation.

The 'you get what you pay for' doesnt apply to servers made by Dell and such, true.

But the price difference between a IDE and SCSI system falls in the 'you get what you pay for'

or the Cogent Vs Other Tier1 situation

its all relative...

p3 vs Athlon, etc...

Amputate Your Head · 05-21-2002, 05:14 PM

WOOHOO! ! ! !

fuckin' DAMN dmr! I think I may cry! That post kicked ASS!!!!

pimpshost · 05-21-2002, 05:20 PM

This topic was good, I agree. I can say though, our dedicated customers have been very happy with Cogent and our virtual customers are about to experience the same.

It may kind of kill the compairson, but so be it.

I am not in this business for short term, it is the long term I am focused on.

Amputate Your Head · 05-21-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dipshit moron retard
You get what you pay for though because this processor was flown in personally via helicopter from the hollow center of the earth by a cyborg who stamps them individually with his testicles before they're blessed by 3 priests baptized and packaged in the reborn baby jesus's foreskin.

my favorite part....

FlyingIguana · 05-21-2002, 05:24 PM

i've always had less problems with custom built pc's. not sure how custom built servers would be, but i'm assuming if the tech knows his shit it'll be better than any overpriced dell system.

not to say that they suck or anything, they're just on the pricy side.

boneprone · 05-21-2002, 05:24 PM

yes, i too liked that part

dipshit moron retard · 05-21-2002, 05:29 PM

drguile don't get me started on ide vs scsi

clickpimp · 05-21-2002, 05:33 PM

The best way to use cogent is to have all your equipment in a cogent lit building ... and then have every surfer that hits one of your hosted sites also in a cogent lit building. This way everything stays on-net. On-net cogent traffic is very speedy. It's only when the rest of the internet wants to push or pull anything on or off cogent's network that there are issues.

ProgGod · 05-21-2002, 05:46 PM

This site is for netrail customers only. If you aren't using netrail, its gonna be slow!

heymatty · 05-21-2002, 06:10 PM

Nice info guys, thanks

Another issue I have come across with a previous host that has not really been covered here is badly compiled software, apache, php, OS patches etc.

Really I am not in a position to tell if a server has a well compiled version of apache on it, gotta rely on someone following through with their promises.

cyberpunk · 05-21-2002, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaGe
Great post

One thing you should remember - Cogent is backed by Cisco. Its unlikely that they'll go out of business anytime soon, Cisco is not stupid.

I've not looked at the facts, so I could be wrong, but.. in all likely hood this was some 'funny' $$ where cisco invested hardware to own there place inthe network

Cyberpunk

dipshit moron retard · 05-21-2002, 11:42 PM

in case anyone was wondering what cogents been up to lately: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020318/dcm024_1.html
heres their latest press release.

kmanrox · 05-21-2002, 11:53 PM

uhhhh... what Jamie said!

Fletch XXX · 05-22-2002, 12:10 AM

Nice read...

VeriSexy · 05-22-2002, 01:10 AM

DMR rocks, what he said is very true. If your TGP posting and 99.9% of them are freeloaders, they deserve Cogent bandwidth. If you run a actually paysite, your customers deserve better =P

Cogent bashers will become Cogent lovers once they actually have a server on them. I know someone that use to bash it like fuck and now lease a full 100Mb connection off them. Allot of people just use a Cogent reseller.

ProgGod · 05-22-2002, 02:35 AM

We like any good host tested cogent, and I have to say i am no cogent lover..

400ms to one state away just does not sound very good

VeriSexy · 05-22-2002, 03:32 AM

Hmm, when did you last test Cogent? I think they are better now. My results are not too bad. What do you guys get?

Pinging www.verisexy.net [66.28.252.5] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=149ms TTL=240
Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=186ms TTL=240
Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=240
Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=144ms TTL=240

Ping statistics for 66.28.252.5:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 143ms, Maximum = 186ms, Average = 155ms

Pinging www.greenapple.verisexy.net [66.28.252.3] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=144ms TTL=49
Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=49
Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=49
Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=155ms TTL=49

Ping statistics for 66.28.252.3:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 143ms, Maximum = 155ms, Average = 146ms

I get great ping times to way2fast.com but there's a price for it. I got these from your site for colocation.

1-2 mb/s - $400
3-5 mb/s - $390
5-7 mb/s - $375
8-10 mb/s -$370
11-13 mb/s -$365
14-15 mb/s -$360
15-17 mb/s -$350
18-20 mb/s -$340
21 mb/s -$338
22 mb/s -$336
23 mb/s -$334
24 mb/s -$332
25 mb/s -$330
Over 25 mb/s -
Call

missnglnk · 05-22-2002, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VeriSexy
DMR rocks, what he said is very true. If your TGP posting and 99.9% of them are freeloaders, they deserve Cogent bandwidth. If you run a actually paysite, your customers deserve better =P

Cogent bashers will become Cogent lovers once they actually have a server on them. I know someone that use to bash it like fuck and now lease a full 100Mb connection off them. Allot of people just use a Cogent reseller.

I used to be a Cogent lover, then I became a customer on a Cogent network, now I hate Cogent.

ProgGod · 05-22-2002, 05:28 PM

Right now I will drop you a 100meg feed for $6500.. thats $65 per meg, not more expensive then cogent.

This month i will be glad to deal with anyone who wants to host with us, Ignore the prices on our site and come directly to me.

VeriSexy · 05-23-2002, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProgGod
Right now I will drop you a 100meg feed for $6500.. thats $65 per meg, not more expensive then cogent.

This month i will be glad to deal with anyone who wants to host with us, Ignore the prices on our site and come directly to me.

That's pretty good pricing. I think Williams has similar pricing if you buy 100Mb ethernet from them.

Snake Doctor · 05-23-2002, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProgGod

This month i will be glad to deal with anyone who wants to host with us, Ignore the prices on our site and come directly to me.

I did, he made me an offer I couldn't understand, so I took it

Ok kidding, he did make me a great offer, I took it, getting ready to move shit now.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 11:03 AM

100M for $6500, $65 p/M.

Right now, you are PRAYING that your customer utilizes MAYBE 10M of it. HOPING he bursts once or twice to 30-40M...then, in essence, you just sold a 10M pipe for $6500...Not bad.

And if the customer MIGHT sustain 75M constant...then you lose your ass...

See, you buy pipe from GlobalCrossing (who are Chap11, may I add). You have an OC-3 from GLBX...So, you just sold an uplink to share your network with all the other people you sold a 100M uplink to...So maybe you have sold 6-7 people at $6500 each to share a 155M pipe. (See folks, this is what happens). You PRAY each and EVERY night that your customers MAYBE hit 5M. All in the while, your customer boasts to his friends "I BOUGHT 100M FOR $6500!"

Let me share a quote direct from the site.
Hi-End Media hosting clients are placed on a multiple OC-9 connection. Our servers are in faciluties that uses less then 50% of available bandwidth, at peak times.

Can you answer me something? What in the world is an OC-9??? I would LOVE to know! Three OC-3's do not constitute an OC-9 by the way.

This comes to my conclusion SinEmpire's case in point on the difference between a host using Cogent's business model and a host riding TRUE ethernet from a Level3/Verio.

It's like getting buy one get one free at K-Mart...Two of shit, is still shit.

MrBandwidth

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 11:06 AM

Wow! Looks like Mr Bandwidth knows his stuff. See people, this is what I'm trying to drive home to you. Alot of hosting offers are NOT what they seem. As he points out, many hosts that sell bandwidth profit only by overselling their network and having clients that don't use all the bandwidth they're buying.

Brad

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 11:17 AM

Well, my whole point is this:

Mercedes and Kia both sell cars. Both cars get you from A to B.

The Kia will break down and take a shit every 5000 miles, but the Benz goes like a champ for 100k.

You replace the Kia every 50k miles, while the Benz lasts for well over 300k miles.

The Kia costs $10k, while the Mercedes costs $50k.

Do the math...

This works the same for just about every busness out there...

Kia and Mercedes can co-exist in the marketplace, and both will have a substantial customer base...it just all depends on how much "garage" work you want to do in between tune-ups.

MrB

TheFLY · 05-23-2002, 11:34 AM

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

You don't always get what you pay for -- Nike crap shoes -- a perfect example ;) If you are a fulltimer -- you owe yourself the job security that a reliable host provides -- because you WILL have downtime at some point and you will be fucked bad if you don't have some good people looking out for your sites...

I use LikeWhoa, Cyberwurx, and Five-Elements -- even if one goes down for an hour I have sites on two other hosts still making money...

I was w/ about 6 hosts when I first started and I got bad downtime w/ all of them (it's a bad feeling when you can't call anyone for help!) -- finally I asked Qon from OnProbation.com -- he said Cyberwurx hosted his box and he hadn't had downtime for 2 years straight -- so I bought into them at like $6/gig (for 2 years) -- prices have fallen since then and I decided to diversify -- I get really good personal service from LikeWhoa and Five-Elements -- I've never met the Cyberwurx guys but they are very professional and always take care of my shit -- not to mention I use their CWNIC.com service to manage all of my domains.

So my advice for freesites is to get a few different hosts -- put that shit on your credit card -- no worries.

TheFLY · 05-23-2002, 11:51 AM

As for paying for 24/hour support -- I think the best sysadmin's are bad ass nerds regardless of pay... even if there was no money involved you know these guys would still be tweaking their boxes all night long and joking about Microsoft certification exams... really what could be more fun?

FlyingIguana · 05-23-2002, 11:56 AM

so hows the avg iguana suppose to know if your host is in fact overselling bandwidth and crossing their fingers every night? you can ask the host or ask other people that host with them, but u really don't have a clue if they're doing it or not.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:02 PM

If you are paying $50 a Meg, they are doing it, bottom line.

I know the per Meg pricing of just about every single backbone provider in the World...and NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE is selling anything for less than 100 per Meg for a GigE handoff (unless the AE begs "Please, this will be a REALLY good customer" and gets deal team approval, and the financial guys are pissed cuz they aren't making any money on this deal, but they sure could use the new monthly revenue).

The reason all the telco's/ISPs in the World are going under, is that they have to compete with the small guys who oversubscribe and undercut the companies they buy from...

Don't be afraid to ask hosts and ISPs who their upstream providers are, how much bandwidth/capacity they have, how full is their "pipe", do they oversubscribe, and if so, to what rate...they will give you this information, if they do not, and back it up, don't do business with them...

MrB

DrGuile · 05-23-2002, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingIguana
so hows the avg iguana suppose to know if your host is in fact overselling bandwidth and crossing their fingers every night? you can ask the host or ask other people that host with them, but u really don't have a clue if they're doing it or not.

check latency.

Bad latency on last 2 hops (or so) mean the host is overselling.

bad latency on the server means an overcharged virtual host (too many virtual on one server)

if you get big latency when you jump unto a new network, than its a problem with their whole network

these are not absolute rules...

ProgGod · 05-23-2002, 12:08 PM

Actually you are not correct, we do have an OC3 to our office.. We have purchased quite a bit of space with global crossing, and quite a bit of bandwidth as well. We are also constructing a new NOC in phoenix, and eventually moving everything there. We are running GIG-E fiber from several locations to several locations, and have peering set up there as well. We can currently drop 100 meg handoffs just about any place in the country, or we can host them here as well.

I assure you, you can do the full 100megs and we still make a nice profit, so I am not over-subscribing our bandwidth.

I suggest you get your facts straight before you speak out of your ass..

Oh and GBLX is in bankrupcy protection, not bankrupt. All a legal maneuver so one of the many many companies trying to buy them, can do so easily

We were smart, we took advantage of their situation to get a commitment for massive amounts of bandwidth at cheap rates. You can get better bandwidth anywhere, and defintely can't get it cheaper..

So... GO FUCK YOURSELF

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 12:12 PM

is it obvious to anyone else sinempire and mrbandwidth are the same person? look at the posting times, location, etc. his first post ever happens to be 3 minutes before sinempires "bravo" post. come on sinempire, have the balls to call the guy out yourself

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:13 PM

Well, you resell, and when you resell, one of two things have to happen.

1) You mark-up the bandwidth you bought to your end users.

2) You oversubscribe.

There really isn't any other way you are going to make money. If you don't make money, why are you in the game???

Let me reiterate, marking-up and oversubscribing isn't necesarrily a bad thing, unless you do it to the degree that decent companies have to "follow suit", lose money, and go bankrupt (or bankrupcy protection to appease you).

I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

MrB

Kimmykim · 05-23-2002, 12:15 PM

Damn, what a thread.

BW prices have dropped over the last year or two, there's no doubt about that.

I think that alot of times people get into the hosting business not realizing exactly what there is to it. I'd go into a long rant about redundancy, routing, how important your host is to their upstream in terms of volume, etc etc, but the bottom line is that if it sounds too good to be true it is.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:16 PM

Dipshit moron retard...how fitting...

Actually, I know SinEmpire...and I was on the phone with him while I was typing the message, and he logged on after...

Are you not supposed to know people personally on here or just be anonymous all the time??? Christ!

FATPad · 05-23-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth
it just all depends on how much "garage" work you want to do in between tune-ups.

MrB

Yea....that and the fact that not everyone can actually afford a Benz.

Oops...that kills the whole analogy now.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:24 PM

Damn! Oh well, ya got me....

FATPad · 05-23-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth
Damn! Oh well, ya got me....

For the most part I agree with you though. I didn't mean it to sound like I didn't. hehe.

Wiredoctor · 05-23-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProgGod

Oh and GBLX is in bankrupcy protection, not bankrupt. All a legal manuvure so one of the many many companies trying to buy them, can do so easily

We were smart, we took advantage of their situation to get a commitment for massive amounts of bandwidth at cheap rates. You can get better bandwidth anywhere, and defintely can't get it cheaper..

So... GO FUCK YOURSELF

Actually it's just a means of trying to stay afloat longer. It's the first step in the bankruptcy proceedings that most companies on their way out do. The bottom line is that anyone associated with cogent basically has their days numbered. They had a good Idea, but it just couldnt survive in todays marketplace. This is why the larger more established hosts never fooled around with cogent. Only the newbies with little to no money who think they could make a quick few bucks from this cheap bandwidth all started popping up left and right.

It will be very interresting to see what happens in the next few months. We already see cogent on the decline in quality, and their financials (if any) are a joke.

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth

Dipshit moron retard...how fitting...

Actually, I know SinEmpire...and I was on the phone with him while I was typing the message, and he logged on after...

Are you not supposed to know people personally on here or just be anonymous all the time??? Christ!

right. then he says: "Wow! Looks like Mr Bandwidth knows his stuff. See people, this is what I'm trying to drive home to you. "

no one said you shouldn't know someone, but if you're going to feign spontanious surprize and solidarity with someone else's post you basically just ghost authored, try and be a little less obvious if you want to be taken seriously. all i'm saying.

and yeah, at least i have the balls to use a fitting nick. why not change yours to "Sinempire's Bitch"

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:35 PM

SinEmpiresBitch was taken...

missnglnk · 05-23-2002, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth
If you are paying $50 a Meg, they are doing it, bottom line.

I know the per Meg pricing of just about every single backbone provider in the World...and NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE is selling anything for less than 100 per Meg for a GigE handoff (unless the AE begs "Please, this will be a REALLY good customer" and gets deal team approval, and the financial guys are pissed cuz they aren't making any money on this deal, but they sure could use the new monthly revenue).

The reason all the telco's/ISPs in the World are going under, is that they have to compete with the small guys who oversubscribe and undercut the companies they buy from...

Don't be afraid to ask hosts and ISPs who their upstream providers are, how much bandwidth/capacity they have, how full is their "pipe", do they oversubscribe, and if so, to what rate...they will give you this information, if they do not, and back it up, don't do business with them...

MrB

Go talk to Williams, GlobalCenter, and AT&T with a reasonable commitment. There's 3 for your "1". Plus, the network is not oversubscribed, we have a OC-3 in our office directly to GBLX for IP transit, plus multiple 100Mbps feeds in PHX for other customers and our cache servers, in addition to a nationwide agreement with GBLX for space and connectivity.

Just because you see a single OC-3, doesn't mean our entire
network is comprised of that. There's more than meets the eye.

Oh, if you're still worried about the hosting going on at our location:
30 second input rate 9708000 bits/sec, 11215 packets/sec
30 second output rate 92851000 bits/sec, 13629 packets/sec

60% capacity on the link, and the new network rollout has already started, hence why we have some equipment in GlobalCrossing's datacenter for now.

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 12:53 PM

Hey Dipshit Moron Retard -

No 'bitches' just lots of friends!

Go Fuck Yourself!

I should be applauded for trying to get the FACTS posted on here. What's the matter, you can't handle the truth? I don't profess to be the smartest guy in town but when it comes to sincerity you'll be hard pressed to find someone who makes a more honest effort.

Because I was skeptical of the economics of their offer I picked up the phone to speak with someone that I knew to be infinitely wiser then myself in these areas. Thus, Mr. Bandwidth. I didn't call him 'out' on it because although I know an awful lot, I would never profess to be a resident expert. I'll let the person that's in the 'know' take that conversation over.

Brad

P.S. - To all you fucking whiners, the day that you post your real name in a thread or on your corporate site is when I'll start listening to you. LOL

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 12:55 PM

I assumed/hoped you had more than a OC-3. But then again, I see companies EVERYDAY say they have multiple OC-3's, or a OC-192 for crying out load when all they have is a Frac or a server in colo with a 100M uplink, committed to 10M, burstable.

I wasn't accusing, don't get me wrong...I just have a hard time understanding how companies that buy pipe can sell below the companies they bought from without compromise.

Bottom line is, the tough thing about hosting/bandwidth is that it is vaporware...the end user really doesn't know what he is truly getting...

MrB

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 12:58 PM

I feel inclined to say that the people at Way2Fast hosting do seem real nice. For all I know, their network is what they say it is. Obviously, at least one person does disagree. If it isn't what they say it is, that would clearly be wrong.

Cheers

Brad

05-21-2002, 02:00 PM	#51
brutus Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Living in the bottle. Posts: 590	Wow - the first post I have printed for future reference from GFY... Absolutely valuable info. I have been paying over 2$ per gig for the latest two years... I have seen how prices gone down down and down.... but I have been with my lovely host. They have nerver been cheapest ones, but... I have really got value ( no worries, minimum downtime ) for my hosting bills. Switch from $2/ gig to $0.50/ gig and blow your business __________________

05-21-2002, 02:42 PM	#52
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	just a small "devil's advocate" post. Dont let your host get away with high bandwith prices. the price of bandwith has come down and his still coming down. Use that to your advantage. Mention Cogent to them ( that always piss them off) Dont be a sucker and go for underpowered, overcharged hosting companies. But dont be a sucker and overpay just because your server isnt coming down every couple hours. ;) __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

05-21-2002, 02:43 PM	#53
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Indeed. I still think Cogent was the best thing to ever happen to the hosting industry (at least from my perspective, hehehe). __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

05-21-2002, 03:01 PM	#54
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	The lowered prices have nothing to do with cogent, it has to do the fact that the market is having a huge decline.. __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-21-2002, 03:36 PM	#55
boneprone Hall Of Fame Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland Oregon USA Posts: 34,415	also true __________________ Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones Bow to the Power - Still BP4L http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame Learn about it kids.

05-21-2002, 04:47 PM	#56
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	i think there are a lot of good points made about cogent and some of the hosting companys who use them, but you knuckleheads take 'you get what you pay for' way too literally and too often as your mantra. This 'slogan' u guys make it has a grain of truth to it but in a technical industry it doesn't neccesarily apply. How many of you host your servers on linux and freebsd? using a FREE webserver, a FREE ftp server, a FREE ssh distro, FREE monitoring tools (mrtg cricket blah blah), FREE database, FREE compilers/build environment, FREE X server and on and on How many of you regret this horrible decision and are in the process of paying big $ to "upgrade" to windows servers instead? Or better yet Solaris? Just because its sun and microsoft it must be worlds better, right? It's the same thing with applying logic like "the first thing i look for is if they have all cisco gear" if you've ever really worked with cisco, extreme, foundry, arrowpoint's equipment ETC you know that frankly cisco is WAY overpriced and their performance and features SUCK in comparison. Cisco was an industry leader at one point but since then they've been living off their name. For the past 3-4 years most major internet companys have drifted away from cisco and are using a lot more foundry and extreme, because they offer more features, a better interface, and often times phonomenally better performance at 60% of cisco's pricepoint. Cisco is not that great or brilliant of a company, have you ever used their first generation of any product line? Even their first set of dsl equipment a few years ago? It's always horrible under quality assured pieces of shit because they know people will buy it since it has the word cisco on it, and will just wait for the firmware upgrades over the comming years to smooth out the problems. All the great values that have come out of cisco the last couple years like their loadbalancers the "localdirector" that was a $20,000 pii-300 which would max out at 1000 connections before they bought out arrowpoint and restamped 'cisco' on them. How about cisco's PIX firewall? You really get your money's worth if you spend $10,000 to upgrade a piece of hardware on your switch just so you could route between vlans when every other vendor on the planet does this with software for 20% of the price, and with less hardware still manage to do true wire speed. Yahoo, exodus, earthlink you name it, all using foundry and other non-cisco or cisco-rebranded equipment for truly massive amounts of traffic. This isn't intended to be a rant against cisco, but rather to make a point that because something costs a lot or a company has a recognizable name does not mean they have a superior product. It's the same thing with saying "only use dell or compaq equipment", what the hell is that? You like paying a 100% markup? You think theres some magic motherboard in the machine made by an ancient taiwanese kungfu motherfucker in a strawhat holding a bag full of moondust in one hand and a soldering iron in the other? They buy the exact same components you can, put them in a case, and charge you for a support contract, when any of the parts you buy yourself will have a 3 year warranty on them anyway. Now you can pay an extra $3000. Woopie! You get what you pay for, because $599 for a gig of ram, $99 for an upgrade from a celeron 850 to a piii 850 (no joke, check their webserver prices), $270 to UPGRADE from a 20gb drive to a 120gb drive is sold to you inside of a case that has a plastic "dell" logo on the front. WHOHOO BARGAIN CITY!@!# And hey, if you want to upgrade to a second* p3 processor, on their dual systems, its only $500 for a p3 1.13 ! You get what you pay for though because this processor was flown in personally via helicopter from the hollow center of the earth by a cyborg who stamps them individually with his testicles before they're blessed by 3 priests baptized and packaged in the reborn baby jesus's foreskin. Speaking of value, to upgrade from a p3 1.13 to a p3 1.26 its only $100 difference, for a grand total of $599! GOOOO DELL. It's the same deal with compaq. Except for some extenuating circumstances (say you have so much money you really dont care and would just rather be raped in fees so that someone can come on site and swap in new ram for you once a year and you never have to think about it or whatever) it makes plenty of sense to buy the components saving a SHITLOAD of money and put the server together yourself (takes all of 20 minutes). Scoffing at people who do this is ignorant. There seems to be almost a sort of social conditioning here where people who are more cost-conscientious are ridiculed for being 'cheapskates' and whatever and the old chant is mindlessly repeated pay more pay more pay more. It looks to me like it just feeds on itself and allows people to try and justify guaging those who don't know any better. For instance, I asked jason from cologroup the other day how much he would charge for 1u of space. He offered $100. $100 for 1u of space a month on a rack that cost him less than a grand. There is air conditioning, power, all that to be taken into consideration too of course, but still thats $40 higher than the most expensive price i've ever seen for 1u of space including big colos like level3. Am i getting what I pay for with jason because hes got the bomb ass inch of space for me? Wheres the added value? Must be because that rack is made of adamantium? No, he's just used to dealing with people who live blindly by the philosophy "You Get What You Pay For".

05-21-2002, 05:01 PM	#57
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	DMR, as with all things, there is no hard set rule, its a case by case situation. The 'you get what you pay for' doesnt apply to servers made by Dell and such, true. But the price difference between a IDE and SCSI system falls in the 'you get what you pay for' or the Cogent Vs Other Tier1 situation its all relative... p3 vs Athlon, etc... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

05-21-2002, 05:14 PM	#58
Amputate Your Head There can be only one Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Somewhere else Posts: 39,075	WOOHOO! ! ! ! fuckin' DAMN dmr! I think I may cry! That post kicked ASS!!!!

05-21-2002, 05:20 PM	#59
pimpshost Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,052	This topic was good, I agree. I can say though, our dedicated customers have been very happy with Cogent and our virtual customers are about to experience the same. It may kind of kill the compairson, but so be it. I am not in this business for short term, it is the long term I am focused on. __________________ Jason (Vegas King Condo) Cell 702-371-8941 Web LuxuryinLasVegas.com - High Rise Condos

05-21-2002, 05:24 PM	#61
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	i've always had less problems with custom built pc's. not sure how custom built servers would be, but i'm assuming if the tech knows his shit it'll be better than any overpriced dell system. not to say that they suck or anything, they're just on the pricy side.

05-21-2002, 05:24 PM	#62
boneprone Hall Of Fame Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland Oregon USA Posts: 34,415	yes, i too liked that part __________________ Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones Bow to the Power - Still BP4L http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame Learn about it kids.

05-21-2002, 05:29 PM	#63
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	drguile don't get me started on ide vs scsi

05-21-2002, 05:33 PM	#64
clickpimp Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,159	The best way to use cogent is to have all your equipment in a cogent lit building ... and then have every surfer that hits one of your hosted sites also in a cogent lit building. This way everything stays on-net. On-net cogent traffic is very speedy. It's only when the rest of the internet wants to push or pull anything on or off cogent's network that there are issues. __________________ eventually, earth will lose. enjoy it while it lasts.

05-21-2002, 05:46 PM	#65
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	This site is for netrail customers only. If you aren't using netrail, its gonna be slow! __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-21-2002, 06:10 PM	#66
heymatty Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Scottsdale :) Posts: 2,188	Nice info guys, thanks Another issue I have come across with a previous host that has not really been covered here is badly compiled software, apache, php, OS patches etc. Really I am not in a position to tell if a server has a well compiled version of apache on it, gotta rely on someone following through with their promises. __________________ Cashlantis ~ Black Book Cash

05-21-2002, 11:42 PM	#68
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	in case anyone was wondering what cogents been up to lately: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020318/dcm024_1.html heres their latest press release.

05-21-2002, 11:53 PM	#69
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	uhhhh... what Jamie said! __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

05-22-2002, 12:10 AM	#70
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	Nice read... __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

05-22-2002, 01:10 AM	#71
VeriSexy Join The Royal Family Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 25,463	DMR rocks, what he said is very true. If your TGP posting and 99.9% of them are freeloaders, they deserve Cogent bandwidth. If you run a actually paysite, your customers deserve better =P Cogent bashers will become Cogent lovers once they actually have a server on them. I know someone that use to bash it like fuck and now lease a full 100Mb connection off them. Allot of people just use a Cogent reseller. __________________ Looking for a KICK ASS TEEN SPONSOR? Check out ROYAL CASH - THE KING OF TEEN! Incredible webmaster tools FHGs, Morphing Blog and RSS Feeds, Embedded FLV & WMV Videos. With TOP RATIO Sites like TeenStarsOnly.com - Earn $$ with our New Site & Bonus Payouts!! ATMovs.com \| iTeenVideo.com \| TeenSexMovs.com \| TeenSexMania.com

05-22-2002, 02:35 AM	#72
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	We like any good host tested cogent, and I have to say i am no cogent lover.. 400ms to one state away just does not sound very good __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-22-2002, 03:32 AM	#73
VeriSexy Join The Royal Family Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 25,463	Hmm, when did you last test Cogent? I think they are better now. My results are not too bad. What do you guys get? Pinging www.verisexy.net [66.28.252.5] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=149ms TTL=240 Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=186ms TTL=240 Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=240 Reply from 66.28.252.5: bytes=32 time=144ms TTL=240 Ping statistics for 66.28.252.5: Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 143ms, Maximum = 186ms, Average = 155ms Pinging www.greenapple.verisexy.net [66.28.252.3] with 32 bytes of data: Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=144ms TTL=49 Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=49 Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=143ms TTL=49 Reply from 66.28.252.3: bytes=32 time=155ms TTL=49 Ping statistics for 66.28.252.3: Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 143ms, Maximum = 155ms, Average = 146ms I get great ping times to way2fast.com but there's a price for it. I got these from your site for colocation. 1-2 mb/s - $400 3-5 mb/s - $390 5-7 mb/s - $375 8-10 mb/s -$370 11-13 mb/s -$365 14-15 mb/s -$360 15-17 mb/s -$350 18-20 mb/s -$340 21 mb/s -$338 22 mb/s -$336 23 mb/s -$334 24 mb/s -$332 25 mb/s -$330 Over 25 mb/s - Call __________________ Looking for a KICK ASS TEEN SPONSOR? Check out ROYAL CASH - THE KING OF TEEN! Incredible webmaster tools FHGs, Morphing Blog and RSS Feeds, Embedded FLV & WMV Videos. With TOP RATIO Sites like TeenStarsOnly.com - Earn $$ with our New Site & Bonus Payouts!! ATMovs.com \| iTeenVideo.com \| TeenSexMovs.com \| TeenSexMania.com Last edited by VeriSexy; 05-22-2002 at 03:38 AM..

05-22-2002, 05:28 PM	#75
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	Right now I will drop you a 100meg feed for $6500.. thats $65 per meg, not more expensive then cogent. This month i will be glad to deal with anyone who wants to host with us, Ignore the prices on our site and come directly to me. __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-23-2002, 11:03 AM	#78
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	100M for $6500, $65 p/M. Right now, you are PRAYING that your customer utilizes MAYBE 10M of it. HOPING he bursts once or twice to 30-40M...then, in essence, you just sold a 10M pipe for $6500...Not bad. And if the customer MIGHT sustain 75M constant...then you lose your ass... See, you buy pipe from GlobalCrossing (who are Chap11, may I add). You have an OC-3 from GLBX...So, you just sold an uplink to share your network with all the other people you sold a 100M uplink to...So maybe you have sold 6-7 people at $6500 each to share a 155M pipe. (See folks, this is what happens). You PRAY each and EVERY night that your customers MAYBE hit 5M. All in the while, your customer boasts to his friends "I BOUGHT 100M FOR $6500!" Let me share a quote direct from the site. Hi-End Media hosting clients are placed on a multiple OC-9 connection. Our servers are in faciluties that uses less then 50% of available bandwidth, at peak times. Can you answer me something? What in the world is an OC-9??? I would LOVE to know! Three OC-3's do not constitute an OC-9 by the way. This comes to my conclusion SinEmpire's case in point on the difference between a host using Cogent's business model and a host riding TRUE ethernet from a Level3/Verio. It's like getting buy one get one free at K-Mart...Two of shit, is still shit. MrBandwidth

05-23-2002, 11:06 AM	#79
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Wow! Looks like Mr Bandwidth knows his stuff. See people, this is what I'm trying to drive home to you. Alot of hosting offers are NOT what they seem. As he points out, many hosts that sell bandwidth profit only by overselling their network and having clients that don't use all the bandwidth they're buying. Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-23-2002, 11:17 AM	#80
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Well, my whole point is this: Mercedes and Kia both sell cars. Both cars get you from A to B. The Kia will break down and take a shit every 5000 miles, but the Benz goes like a champ for 100k. You replace the Kia every 50k miles, while the Benz lasts for well over 300k miles. The Kia costs $10k, while the Mercedes costs $50k. Do the math... This works the same for just about every busness out there... Kia and Mercedes can co-exist in the marketplace, and both will have a substantial customer base...it just all depends on how much "garage" work you want to do in between tune-ups. MrB

05-23-2002, 11:34 AM	#81
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	I'll throw in my 2 cents... You don't always get what you pay for -- Nike crap shoes -- a perfect example ;) If you are a fulltimer -- you owe yourself the job security that a reliable host provides -- because you WILL have downtime at some point and you will be fucked bad if you don't have some good people looking out for your sites... I use LikeWhoa, Cyberwurx, and Five-Elements -- even if one goes down for an hour I have sites on two other hosts still making money... I was w/ about 6 hosts when I first started and I got bad downtime w/ all of them (it's a bad feeling when you can't call anyone for help!) -- finally I asked Qon from OnProbation.com -- he said Cyberwurx hosted his box and he hadn't had downtime for 2 years straight -- so I bought into them at like $6/gig (for 2 years) -- prices have fallen since then and I decided to diversify -- I get really good personal service from LikeWhoa and Five-Elements -- I've never met the Cyberwurx guys but they are very professional and always take care of my shit -- not to mention I use their CWNIC.com service to manage all of my domains. So my advice for freesites is to get a few different hosts -- put that shit on your credit card -- no worries.

05-23-2002, 11:51 AM	#82
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	As for paying for 24/hour support -- I think the best sysadmin's are bad ass nerds regardless of pay... even if there was no money involved you know these guys would still be tweaking their boxes all night long and joking about Microsoft certification exams... really what could be more fun?

05-23-2002, 11:56 AM	#83
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	so hows the avg iguana suppose to know if your host is in fact overselling bandwidth and crossing their fingers every night? you can ask the host or ask other people that host with them, but u really don't have a clue if they're doing it or not.

05-23-2002, 12:02 PM	#84
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	If you are paying $50 a Meg, they are doing it, bottom line. I know the per Meg pricing of just about every single backbone provider in the World...and NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE is selling anything for less than 100 per Meg for a GigE handoff (unless the AE begs "Please, this will be a REALLY good customer" and gets deal team approval, and the financial guys are pissed cuz they aren't making any money on this deal, but they sure could use the new monthly revenue). The reason all the telco's/ISPs in the World are going under, is that they have to compete with the small guys who oversubscribe and undercut the companies they buy from... Don't be afraid to ask hosts and ISPs who their upstream providers are, how much bandwidth/capacity they have, how full is their "pipe", do they oversubscribe, and if so, to what rate...they will give you this information, if they do not, and back it up, don't do business with them... MrB

05-23-2002, 12:08 PM	#86
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	Actually you are not correct, we do have an OC3 to our office.. We have purchased quite a bit of space with global crossing, and quite a bit of bandwidth as well. We are also constructing a new NOC in phoenix, and eventually moving everything there. We are running GIG-E fiber from several locations to several locations, and have peering set up there as well. We can currently drop 100 meg handoffs just about any place in the country, or we can host them here as well. I assure you, you can do the full 100megs and we still make a nice profit, so I am not over-subscribing our bandwidth. I suggest you get your facts straight before you speak out of your ass.. Oh and GBLX is in bankrupcy protection, not bankrupt. All a legal maneuver so one of the many many companies trying to buy them, can do so easily We were smart, we took advantage of their situation to get a commitment for massive amounts of bandwidth at cheap rates. You can get better bandwidth anywhere, and defintely can't get it cheaper.. So... GO FUCK YOURSELF __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected] Last edited by ProgGod; 05-23-2002 at 01:03 PM..

05-23-2002, 12:12 PM	#87
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	is it obvious to anyone else sinempire and mrbandwidth are the same person? look at the posting times, location, etc. his first post ever happens to be 3 minutes before sinempires "bravo" post. come on sinempire, have the balls to call the guy out yourself

05-23-2002, 12:13 PM	#88
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Well, you resell, and when you resell, one of two things have to happen. 1) You mark-up the bandwidth you bought to your end users. 2) You oversubscribe. There really isn't any other way you are going to make money. If you don't make money, why are you in the game??? Let me reiterate, marking-up and oversubscribing isn't necesarrily a bad thing, unless you do it to the degree that decent companies have to "follow suit", lose money, and go bankrupt (or bankrupcy protection to appease you). I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut. MrB

05-23-2002, 12:15 PM	#89
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Damn, what a thread. BW prices have dropped over the last year or two, there's no doubt about that. I think that alot of times people get into the hosting business not realizing exactly what there is to it. I'd go into a long rant about redundancy, routing, how important your host is to their upstream in terms of volume, etc etc, but the bottom line is that if it sounds too good to be true it is.

05-23-2002, 12:16 PM	#90
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Dipshit moron retard...how fitting... Actually, I know SinEmpire...and I was on the phone with him while I was typing the message, and he logged on after... Are you not supposed to know people personally on here or just be anonymous all the time??? Christ!

05-23-2002, 12:24 PM	#92
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Damn! Oh well, ya got me....