150........

You are even more of an idiot than I tought ....

I never denied that the terrorists trained... nobody did ... I just corrected you on another of your false statment ( you are so knowledgeable ... ) and pointed out that he had ONE DAY on the flight simulator ( a 727, not the plane they HJ ) ...

Amazing how fast this guy learned and how good is aim was ... Why do pilots spend months training... Oups, they are americans, so not as good ...

You want conspiration on Atta flying lessons... google VENICE FLYERS ATTA....

I know you are against abortion, and now I know why : self preservation ...

Kewl.. More wackos that saw molten steel.. :)

Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that ?As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.? (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)

Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force On Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002,
?Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and [b]molten steel[/] flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.)

Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late Fall 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel.?

Damn what a bunch of wackos....!!!

Ahh... but there shouldn't have been a magic melting temperature...
Thanks for making that easy.. :)

and I went back and re-read it and I read things like:

This is an initial suggestion, originally written on Sept 11 2001 (with some minor subsequent changes) on one possible reason for failure, and should not be regarded as official advice.

yes indeedy.. now there's reason to refer to that page as gospel.. :)

Then there are the various:

It appears likely......
It is possible that the blaze.....
These conditions may have ....
The extent to which the internal parts were damaged during the collision may be evident in the rubble if any forensic investigation is conducted.


So basically the whole page says.. "This is what might have happened if these other things happened"

Sooooo ya gotny more sites with such crucial information??

correct and it also says that he conducted his opinions based on tv footage and pictures.. and he did it ON sept 11 thus within hours of the attack.. no engineer worth anything would publish such ridiculous theories and put their name on it.. ( although he did make it rather clear that they were just guesses from an uninformed viewpoint )

My math is fine but your comprehension is not.

http://www.wernersplace.com/images/m...on_the_run.jpg

:1orglaugh

Yo! Smokey.. I agree 100% with your wanting answers to questions as you can see from my posts, but you're succeeding at little more than just pissing people off with your demeanor..

I find these threads quite interesting and love a good debate, albeit a never-ending battle between beliefs in varying directions..

My brother says I'd argue with a fence post, and in some instances he's right.. but my sarcasms are all in fun.. Getting pissed on a message forum just results in back & forth slamming..

Now on with the fun :)

Yes because we know everything about what the terrorists did prior to the attack. How do you know he didnt train other places? huh?

Thanks for the little intermission... :)

Wow I wonder how those old blacksmiths melted iron.... :uhoh apparently only special government issued materials will burn hot enough to melt iron. :winkwink: :thumbsup

Here is a hint. Oxygene feeds fire and makes it hotter. You are talking to someone who ran a bodyshop for two years, and knows metal work. So does coal burn hot enough to melt metal? :winkwink:

And the hole gets deeper....

Blacksmiths didn't melt iron.. They heated it to a point that it could be forged with their hammer..

Yes.. the bellows provided more air for a hotter fire, but it didn't melt the iron..

Oh you so wish! Besides not quite sure how I can be 'played out halfway through this thread' when I have only just joined it!:upsidedow


Now you're just upset because I saw through your little game. Be a good boy and pack away your toys because no one is playing anymore.

Coal can melt some metals.. but coal can burn hotter that jet fuel..

You can't even click a fucking link on your own ???? Geez, you are dumb!

[QUOTE]While in the United States, Atta was reported as owning a red 1989 Pontiac[7]
[edit]

2000

In March 2000, while still in Germany, Atta contacted 31 different U.S. flight schools to discuss training to fly planes.

Atta traveled to Prague, stayed overnight, and then entered the U.S. on June 3. Atta and earlier arrived hijackers opened bank accounts and continue to check on flight schools.

In July, Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi enrolled at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Florida. Atta claimed to be of royal Saudi descent and presented Marwan as his bodyguard.

Both earned their instrument certificates from the FAA in November. On November 5th, Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747-200 and Boeing 757-200 models from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio.

On December 11th, Atta purchased additional flight deck videos for Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models from the same store in Ohio. On December 21st, both Atta and Marwan are granted their pilot licenses. On the 26th or 27th, Atta and Marwan abandoned a Piper Cherokee that had stalled on the runway of Miami International Airport. On the 29th, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-Locka Airport and practised on a Boeing 727 simulator.
[edit]

2001

Atta's cellphone was recorded phoning the Moroccan embassy in Washington on January 2nd, just before Marwan flew to the country. Atta flew to Spain, January 4, 2001 to coordinate with Binalshib, returning to the U.S. on January 10, 2001.

While in the United States he traveled to Decatur, Georgia for unknown reasons, where he and Marwan attended a health club. On February 19th, Atta and Marwan rented a postal box in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

On April 11th, Atta and Marwan rent an apartment in Coral Springs, Florida, and assist with the arrival of the "muscle" hijackers. On April 16th Atta is given a citation for not having a valid driver's license, so begins steps to get one.
Atta's driver's license
Enlarge
Atta's driver's license

On May 2nd, Atta received his driver's license from Lauderdale Lakes, Florida

On June 27th, Atta flew from Fort Lauderdale to Boston, where he spent a day, and then continued on to San Francisco for a short time, and from there to Las Vegas, Nevada. On June 28th, Atta arrives at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas to meet with the three other pilots, he rented a Chevrolet Malibu from an Alamo Rent A Car agency. It is not known where he stayed this night, but on the 29th he registered at the EconoLodge at 1150 South Las Vegas Blvd. Here he presented an AAA membership for a discount, and pays cash for the $49.50/night. During his trip to Las Vegas, he is thought to have used a video camera that he had rented from a Select Photo outlet back in Delray Beach, Florida.[8]

Atta left again in July 2001 for Spain to meet with Binalshibh for the last time. They coordinated the details of the attacks, but did not reach a firm agreement on all the targets or the date. They did decide that the World Trade Center would be hit, and they ruled out a strike on a nuclear plant. They also discussed the personal difficulties Atta was having with fellow hijacker Ziad Jarrah. Binalshibh was worried that Jarrah might even abandon the plan. The 9/11 Commission Report speculates that Zacarias Moussaoui was being trained as a possible replacement for Jarrah. On July 8th, Atta is recorded withdrawing 1000 Swiss francs from an ATM, and using his credit card to purchase two swiss army knives and some chocolate in Zurich, Switzerland. On July 9th Atta disembarked Iberia Airlines Flight 656 in Madrid Airport and registered with Iqbal Afzal Admat at a nearby hotel, and then rented a car to drive to Salou where he rented a room at the Hotel Sant Jordi, and is thought to have met with brothers Wail and Waleed al-Shehri.[9]

On August 4th, Atta was believed to have been at Orlando International Airport waiting to pick up suspected '20th Hijacker' Mohamed al-Kahtani from Dubai, who ended up being held by immigration as 'suspicious'. The person, assuming it was Atta, used a payphone at the airport to phone a number 'linked to al-Qaeda' after Kahtani was revoked.[10]. On August 23rd, Atta's driver license was revoked in absentia after he failed to show up in traffic court to answer the earlier citation for driving without a license.[11] On the same day, Israeli Mossad reportedly gives his name to the CIA as part of a list of 19 names they say are planning an attack in the near future. Only four of the names are known for certain - Nawaf, Atta, Marwan and al-Mihdhar.[12][13] On August 30th he was recorded purchasing a utility knife from an unknown source.

U.S. investigators say that Atta sent a package via FedEx to financier Mustafa Ahmed in the United Arab Emirates on September 4, and it was received four days later. On the 8th, Atta was also recorded sending Ahmed two wire payments, first for $2,860, and then for $5000. Over the next two days, Waleed and Marwan al-Shehhi would also both wire Ahmed several thousand dollars.

Atta traveled twice to Las Vegas on "surveillance flights" rehearsing how the 9/11 attacks would be carried out. Other hijackers traveled to Las Vegas at different times in the summer of 2001. Some reportedly drank alcohol, gambled, and paid strippers to perform lap dances for them. [14]

Staff at Shuckum's Oyster Bar later claim that they recognised both Atta and Marwan, as two of the men who had been at the restaurant on either September 7th or 8th. While there are varying stories about Atta's activities, all sources indicate that Marwan drank rum and coke while talking to the others.

The attacks
Abdulaziz al-Omari (center) and Mohamed Atta al Sayed withdrawing money from an ATM
Enlarge
Abdulaziz al-Omari (center) and Mohamed Atta al Sayed withdrawing money from an ATM

On September 10, Atta picked up al-Omari from the Milner Hotel in Boston, Massachusetts, and the two drove their rented Nissan to a Comfort Inn in South Portland, Maine, where they arrived at 5:43pm and spent the night in room 232. It is unknown why they drove from Boston to Maine, only to catch a flight to Boston in the morning. It was initially reported that Adnan and Ameer Bukhari were the two hijackers who had rented and driven the car. The FBI also states that Atta made a credit-card purchase in Manhattan, New York on the 10th[15][16]
Atta (blue shirt) and al-Omari in the Portland, Maine airport on the morning of 9/11
Enlarge
Atta (blue shirt) and al-Omari in the Portland, Maine airport on the morning of 9/11

The two spent their last night pursuing ordinary activities: making two ATM withdrawals, and a 20-minute stop at Wal-Mart. FBI reports specified that "two middle-eastern men" were seen in the parking lot of a Pizza Hut, but despite alluding to Atta and Marwan, does not explicitly say it was them.

In the morning of September 11, they drove to the Portland International Jetport, and took the 6am flight on Colgan Air (U.S. Airways Express) to Logan International Airport in Boston.

At Logan Airport, the pair boarded American Airlines Flight 11, where Atta was checked in under the abbreviation "Moham Atta", and was seated in 8D. At 6:45 a.m., while at the Boston airport, Mohamed Atta took a call from Marwan al-Shehhi, another hijacker. This call was apparently to confirm the attacks were ready to begin.

At 7:59 a.m., the plane departed from Boston, carrying 81 passengers. The plane's transponder was turned off at 8:28.[17]At 8:24:38, a voice believed to be Atta's was heard by air traffic controllers, saying: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet and you will be OK. We are returning to the airport. Nobody move, everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet.." [18].


Atta is believed to have been the pilot of the plane when it crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center 23 minutes later at 8:47 a.m.

Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed, his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. When later found by U.S. authorities, they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and a four-page document in Arabic, copies of which were also found with the terrorists of the other three planes. It contains a list of instructions, such as "make an oath to die and renew your intentions," "you should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage in heaven is very short," "check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. You must make your knife sharp and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter."
[edit]

Mistaken identity

Initially, Mohamed Atta's identity was confused with that of a native Jordanian, Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta, who bombed a bus in 1986 on the Israel-occupied West Bank, killing one and severely injuring three. Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta, a naturalized U.S. citizen, was subsequently deported from Venezuela to the United States, extradited to Israel, tried and sentenced to life in prison. The Israeli supreme court later overturned his extradition and set him free; his whereabouts are unknown. He is 14 years older than Mohamed Atta. After the September 11 attacks, a general furor arose over the supposed failure of immigration authorities and the U.S. intelligence community to stop a known terrorist from entering the country under his true name. Eventually, The Boston Globe reported details from records at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals detailing the detention and subsequent extradition of Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta from the U.S.
Atta's father declines an interview with Liz Jackson
Enlarge
Atta's father declines an interview with Liz Jackson

Oh so what you are saying is with the right amount of heat and pressure metal will change shape?

more for the same idiot SHITTYYFINGERZDOTNET:

In a video released by the U.S. government, Osama bin Laden points to Atta as the leader of the attacks (see videos of bin Laden). His father, Mohamed el-Amir Atta, a retired lawyer in Egypt, characterized this accusation in an interview as ridiculous, calling his son gentle and shy. He said that he suspects Mossad had a hand in framing his son, whom he said was a quiet boy uninvolved in politics, shy and devoted to studying architecture. He also showed media an image of his son, claiming that while there were similarities with the FBI released photos, they were clearly different people.[19] [20] The elder Mr. Atta also claims to have spoken with Mohamed by phone two days after the air crashes of the 11th, and continued to hold in interviews with the German news magazine Bild am Sonntag in late 2002 that his son was alive, in hiding. [21], [22]

In July 2005 Atta's father (interviewed by CNN) said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son. [23]

[/QUOTE]

and a bit more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta

What an idiot you are... You are the poster child for pro-abortion.

Hmm and what does coal come from?

Well oxygen doesn't make YOU hotter, just alive... Too bad!

You're so dumb its amusing. lol You've shown he was on a flight trainer at least one time. Can you prove he did not go on other simulators? Do you think someone using an at home simulator would be able to fly a commercial aircraft after studying, flying on a simulator at least once, and training on smaller aircraft?

Im just pointing out that you folks have no idea how metal is made, formed, and worked. Maliability folks.

Listemn moron ... I understand that your chief has as thinking pattern:

but in any intelligent debate, I can't proive what didn't happened...

It is to you to prove that he had extended training.... After all, they had a pretty good idea of what he was up to ...

Can you proive that I don't have an elephant in my office ????

What, you can'T ????

So I have an elephant in my office... and it is sitting on your fucking head!


YOU are really the worst dumbass here... I am done :321GFY

Maybe you guys havent got it yet.

How close to melting point does steel have to get before it begins to weaken? How much extra stress was added just by the numerous outer supports that were lost in the plane collision? If you add those two factors together what do you think will happen? The inner support columns losing strength due to the heat, and the thousands of tons of weight above pressing down. Then the missing columns from the crash. What did you think would happen really?

I cant believe that you cant see if it was a conspiracy why would the terrorist train AT ALL? That cold air up there rotting your brain? :1orglaugh

Shove those melting spoons up your ass ... you will enjoy it.

Well certainly it'll change shape.. and fires of all sorts have bent and twisted steel beams... But that hasn't been the issue...

It's the melted steel that is the issue..

And as far as your comment about only the government having special materials to melt iron...

In all of my posts, I've never even suggested that the gov't was behind, or knew of the attacks.. I've just said that the gov't findings and reports aren't telling the whole story....

Well I leave in the morning for Phoenix and wont have time for this witty conversation.

You do believe heat and pressure with change the shape of metal..... Ok so what exactly are you arguing about again? :uhoh So do you admit that the pressure from the top floors, and the missing support columns combined with the heat from the fire was more than likely the reason for collapse then right? *scratches head*

Just another hint. Compacted materials lying in a huge pit on fire with lots of oxygene and metal laying inside such a pit will gain a much higher tempeture. Just a hint. :winkwink:

And that explains wtc7 how?

The impact of the planes would have to play a major factoring role in that fires have burned for hours and hours on multiple floors in other high rise buildings and they didn't fall... None of them!
But even with the impact factor.. I can't believe that you don't at least question how all 3 buildings came down in the very same manner.. freefall.. with no stagger or hesitation.. even on the top floors where the weight wasn't as great in comparison..

Jesus fucking christ, are you STILL pushing this bending a fucking spoon with a lighter?

WTF man, were you freebasing some coke and thought you saw the spoon bend??

I'm not arguing about anything.. this all of a sudden went from the issue of melted steel to changing the shape of metal...
I never said heat wouldn't change the shape of metal...

And don't put words im my mouth.. I haven't admitted that top floor pressure and missing columns caused the collapses...

If this is your argument, then explain wtc7... no missing support posts and not much fire...

When I get back from Phoenix Ill make you a friggin video lol. Metal loses rigidity when heat is applied. Add to that pressure and metal changes shape in other words bends.

Compacted material burning in a pit would use up the oxygen quick.. and never get a fire hot enough to melt anything..

The only source for oxygen would be from the top, and oxygen would only feed the upper portion of the compacted material and not reach the lower portion.

If you've ever burned anything in a barrel, you should have noticed how weak a fire is due to the lack of oxygen getting to the source..

Just another hint..

I think we need Superman and his X-Ray vision to really find the truth!

Up, up and away . . ..

http://www.movie-poster.ws/movies/wa...rmanvshulk.jpg

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

it will take 50 yrs before we find out the truth.

Baloney man.

In 50 years it'll all just be a lesson for our great grandkids to read about in their American History books. No one will remember shit.

Just like no one in this generation mourns or rememembers crap about 12/7/41.

http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hist/fi/0000016c.jpg

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/i...000/g19930.jpg

:(

Could be...

The gov't has been known to put out misinformation and disinformation to keep things so boggled that nobody knows what to believe...

Which still warrants answers to some questions...

whah whah whah you dont have one valid point , thanks for playing .. come back when you have an education and have learned how to read english.. or how bout this .. point out ANYTHING i have said that was wrong and back it up with ANY proof. that should be pretty easy if you were correct even once..

thats what i thought , all talk and no action . just like everyone else with 2 cents to give but nothing to back it up with..

Hmm wonder if there was any air being pushed from under the building up... :uhoh

Nope... only from your stinking ass :2 cents:

In this case (I kinda made the logical jump since people were referring to Iraq in this thread) we already had troops involved with combat (no-fly zone, naval surveillance etc) and most scholars point to Sect 4.(a.)(3) which states :
"in numbers which substantially enlarge United States Armed Forces equipped for combat already located in a foreign nation; the president shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report, in writing, setting forth--

(A) the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces;

(B) the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and

(C) the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.

(b) The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad"

I also would disagree that "most" legal scholars agree about the resolution not being within the Congress' authority - as a matter of fact just about every legal authority expert that spoke out during the Vietnam war held the exact opposite position and were the leading cause for Congress even taking a look at limiting the Presidential abuses of his power in 1973 - of course most of the abuses had occured over the timeframe of Truman, Johnson and Nixon so Congress (at least the published words that were being put out in the Wash Post etc back then) felt a need to rein in what they saw as an abuse and created a joint resolution between both the Senate and House.

I also would disagree that the Constitution (just because it makes the president the head of the military - because it was accepted in George Washingtons era that he actually already was the general of the Army) intended to have a conflict and does not take away from what the framers of the Constitution realized they needed in their words as a check/balance so they added in the Art 1 Sect 8 just to make sure that a President didnt become a dictator by declaring wars without the backing of the congress. Kinda makes sense if you ask me but then Im just an old man.
I think that most of what you would find these days supporting the idea that the President outranks any of the other two branches of government - are those that are fully to blame for the position the US is in right now and they definitely need to be reined in - of course I know I wont be around to see any of it happen but hopefully you younger folks will see what America is supposed to look like - but Im afraid its going to take pretty damn close to another revolution to see it

I think our only disagreement here though is we take two different sides on an issue that has been debated for the last 50 years

If it's in a pit of compacted burning rubble, imagine how little air would be at the bottom..