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-   -   Are We Working for A Dying Industry? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=591386)

fl_prn_str 03-27-2006 03:12 PM

stop buying content..........................

do more content trade shoots........................:helpme

Matt Frackas 03-27-2006 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight
Although the industry has always been subject to up and down trends, having been in the game a long time, I tend to agree that there's an overall decline in the profitability. At least from our perspective.

There's no one single reason for it, I think there are many factors involved. One of the main reasons I blame is the large amount of free content available out there. And we're all guilty of it, one way or another. Another reason is that although there are more and more people gaining access to the web, more people are also purchasing their own camera gear for producing cheap content - the digital revolution has made it very affordable to spend a few hundred bucks and attempt to become an online entrepreneur.

Another reason is the shady business owners who rip off customers, one way or the other - causing consumers to become more wary of how they use their plastic online. Add to that hardly a week goes by that we don't hear a data security breach somewhere along the line.

Then there's the poor currency exchange rate with the U.S. dollar (for those of us producers outside the U.S.). Here in Canada we've lost over $0.40 cents on the dollar in the past two years - and that amounts to a helluva chunk of change to absorb.

And of course there's the constant legal pressure from the feds and moral minority against us all. Transaction processing becomes more and more costly and difficult to maintain with each passing day.

And last but not least, there's also an incestuous production factor at work. So much of the stuff starts to all look like the same shit after a while. There's very little innovation or groundbreaking work being done (for the most part - not all). A lot of websites start to look the same, routine and formulated clones of each other. I can't help but think a lot of surfers start to develop a desensitivity to it all - 'seen one...you've seen them all' mentality.

Just a few thoughts...for what they're worth. :cool-smil


These are all good points and illustrate an important question: "what makes your site/product stand out from the rest?" "How are you going to be different? and "how are you going to keep your members or keep them returning?

I do believe we are seeing a certain consolidation, leveling off, over saturation and the surfing public is a lot wiser now.....so they are more savvy shoppers.

Jarmusch 03-27-2006 03:29 PM

http://dunamai.com/Humor/BagdadBob/i..._bob_large.gif
"I assure you there is no weapons of mass money production in porn."

gentmaster 03-27-2006 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony
Awesome way to break it down succinctly.

However, those sites you listed, cream of the crop, and it shows. Surfer will rip out the CC if they cannot find your content that makes them wet anywhere else.

I don't doubt this at all. Surfers are plucky masturbators and there's enough dollars to go around.

From a purely marketing standpoint, if I was running a TGP, I would leverage highly visible brands in order to boost my own. I'm looking to field bookmarks based on what could be perceived as leadership. A lighthouse. Of course this is only one piece of any business framework. And i'm just a loser. There's no money in porn. :upsidedow

The Other Steve 03-27-2006 03:31 PM

For those people who still think that our market is growing then you might be surprised to learn that the growth in the number of people getting online has slowed to a trickle and is not expected to increase in the next few years.

64% of American households are online and that figure is expected to increase to 65% by the end of this year and by 2009 it MAY reach 69%

The pie is finite so we have to learn to work with what we have because that's about all there is folks.

jjjay 03-27-2006 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Steve
64% of American households are online and that figure is expected to increase to 65% by the end of this year and by 2009 it MAY reach 69%

america ain't the only country in the world with internet access you know :winkwink:

minusonebit 03-27-2006 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjay
america ain't the only country in the world with internet access you know :winkwink:

This is a good point, and alot of countries that were previously not very connected are getting connected in a real hurry.

The Other Steve 03-27-2006 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjay
america ain't the only country in the world with internet access you know :winkwink:

No kidding?

I wouldn't know that sitting here on the beach in Australia.

But if Internet take-up is hitting the wall in the US then the wall is looming for the rest of the world too.

Jarmusch 03-27-2006 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjay
america ain't the only country in the world with internet access you know :winkwink:

True. China also has a big percentage of internet users.

The Other Steve 03-27-2006 03:42 PM

And for those of you who think that hope rests with all us foreigners who are getting online - just take a look at all those sponsors who won't take sign-ups from outside the US.

KRL 03-27-2006 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch
http://dunamai.com/Humor/BagdadBob/i..._bob_large.gif
"I assure you there is no weapons of mass money production in porn."

I'm glad this guy was smart and got out of Iraq OK. He was truly the funniest character during the entire war and looked forward to his daily dose of bullshit.

:1orglaugh

Michaelious 03-27-2006 03:45 PM

i think it will evolve, there are others nioches and technologies that will become more important, like most things in life

Snake Doctor 03-27-2006 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicky
ahhhh, you said shaving!! :winkwink:

You're not allowed to mention Serge without saying shaving.

It's adult webmaster rule number 9667342 part B, subsection F, paragraph 3.

jayeff 03-27-2006 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRL
There are ways to make just as much money in a saturated market. Just have to innovate new marketing angles and know which niche's are hot.

99% of the industry are followers, not waking up figuring out how to market something brand new to people. So the pizza pie gets sliced into crumb sized pieces. People still want pizza, but you've got to figure out some new toppings.

Smug. Simplistic. Clichéd. Misleading.

The vast majority of people in any industry are "followers", but whether followers or innovators, most will fail: up to half within 1 year and 70% to 80% within 5 years is normal. A sizeable minority will achieve reasonable results and just a handful will be extremely successful. Although innovators often get the media attention, because everyone likes stories about how Joe Blow turned a used cardboard box into millions of dollars because he had a great idea in the shower one morning, most successful operators are followers. They simply do the job better.

We avoided such failure rates for most of the past decade (if you exclude students and so on who never had any intention of staying on), because online porn is a young industry and at least until about 2000, demand far outstripped supply. We are seeing declining ratios now because supply and demand are more evenly balanced and also because most sponsors are still using marketing methods and selling products which really have no place in a maturing, more competitive market.

We are about 2 years into a consolidation phase, but this is the first one in which operators with large bank accounts buy out those who see the tide turning and either have no motivation to react, or are unable to. Most of these purchases will not be successful because the purchasing businesses may be no more in tune with the changing face of the industry than those they are taking over. It could be 5 years or more before we see buyouts which will "stick" and the purchasers then will likely be companies which are either not now in online porn at all, or only peripherally.

Between now and then some sponsors will try to improve their bottom line by bringing more of their supply-line in-house. That again is an entirely predictable phase through which every industry passes and like the early buyouts, it rarely produces the anticipated benefits. We are seeing the beginning of this phase, with some sponsors putting designers and photographers on exclusive contracts, but that trend will likely reverse within 2-3 years.

Far from the industry dying, there is huge potential for growth. Online porn is still by far the poor relation of the adult entertainment family and has done very little to move beyond selling to those who come knocking at its door. We even turn many of them away. But most of the changes we see are merely tinkering with existing formulas: no-one has yet made any serious attempt to tackle legal, payment processing and other issues that are holding us back. So although we have businesses we recognize as at the top of the league, big and small we are all in the same league. There are no "super" businesses of the kind needed to drive the industry as a whole forward.

Profit margins will fall simply because the profit margins we have enjoyed in the past are unsupportable by any mature industry. That isn't a bad thing, because then we shall become more focussed on making sales and retaining our customers. That change in attitude will also help us grow.

And finally affiliates: the only aspect of our business, which although not unique, has no precisely parallel equivalents in other industries, so there are many more possibilities. Whatever changes take place in the role of affiliates and their relationships with sponsors, their impact will surely be to make this business, within perhaps as little as 5 years, as difficult as any other for new entrants. Inevitably far fewer people who invest little more than their time will continue to enjoy major rewards.

The solution, except in the very short term, is definitely not in looking for new marketing "angles" or in knowing "which niches are hot". That approach guarantees you are fighting over the same pizza as everyone else and investing all your imagination and effort into directions that only work for as long as it takes everyone else to climb all over them. Meanwhile the market evolves, leaving you further behind and each new direction becomes harder to develop and less profitable than the one before.

To make money long term, identify markets and learn about the customers who populate it: then provide what they want at a price they are willing to pay. Clever marketing can certainly play a part, but to enhance the intrinsic appeal of what is sold, not as substitute for that appeal. We must have lost millions of dollars by behaving as if we are selling to people from another planet, rather than to people exactly like ourselves, the same people to whom every other business sells. Now that repeat customers are far and away the largest group, that myth needs to be finally put to rest.

jjjay 03-27-2006 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch
True. China also has a big percentage of internet users.

??

I was simply commenting on the statistics that internet growth in the US is slowing. well, if that's the case and you want more customers, why not target faster growing markets? seems logical. localize your website for different countries, and away you go.

some people still seem convinced that the US is the only country in the world where web surfers have debit/credit cards and actively use them online

After Shock Media 03-27-2006 03:59 PM

I have been watching and reading this thread since it was brand new. Patiently waiting for someone to bring up the obvious yet it still seems to have gone ignored. Unless of course I missed it somewhere while reading and checking back. I still have hopes it may surface.

One thing I do feel though is people need to learn the inside of the box before trying to think outside of it. :2 cents:

Nicky 03-27-2006 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2
You're not allowed to mention Serge without saying shaving.

It's adult webmaster rule number 9667342 part B, subsection F, paragraph 3.

Ohhh I didnt know that, hope I didnt offend Serge now :Oh crap

:)

gentmaster 03-27-2006 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media
I have been watching and reading this thread since it was brand new. Patiently waiting for someone to bring up the obvious yet it still seems to have gone ignored. Unless of course I missed it somewhere while reading and checking back. I still have hopes it may surface.

One thing I do feel though is people need to learn the inside of the box before trying to think outside of it. :2 cents:

You are not suggesting the cliquish comradery needed in order to succeed in adult right? Evidently if there is some other level of dumbed down social connectiveness necessary in order to ensure my success, please tell and instruct me. I've been eager to put my bar manners to good use.

Drake 03-27-2006 04:23 PM

Great thread. I was going to add but it's all been said:)

datatank 03-27-2006 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony
Good post, alot of what you have said, you can see in the companies that are successful.

Serge posted back in the day using the "Gold Rush" analogy, that very few miners made millions.

It was the Bankers, the Hotel Keeper, the Restaurant Owner, the Supply Shop owner, it was those who catered to the 49er's.

What's true then is still true now.


Sell them jeans

pocketkangaroo 03-27-2006 04:26 PM

I don't think you can ever say this industry is dying. People will always want sex/porn. It's human nature. Are certain old methods dying? Yes. Are old ways of selling dying? Yes. The industry is evolving, like every industry in this world and those that are on the cutting edge will flourish.

It amazes me when I hear someone in any industry complain about an old method not working anymore and then claim that things are dead. Did you know that some of your biggest dating companies used to rely exclusively on direct mail? That music companies shunned the idea of selling songs online? Or that someone would dare pay for radio when they can have it for free?

So your galleries convert 10 times worse now than in 1999. Maybe there are 10 times more people online? Maybe there are much better methods of selling? Ask your biggest mainstream companies right now if they use the same methods they used in 1999. I doubt you'll find many that say yes.

I guess what some see as half empty, I see as half full. With high speed getting better and more easily accessible and other technology improving dramatically, I foresee those companies that step up and do something unique succeeding. Those that embrace personalization, user interactiveness, and high definition technology will thrive. There are so many areas that have yet to be touched in this space.

Industries never die, they just evolve.

abyss_al 03-27-2006 04:51 PM

VERY POSSIBLE REASON

:2 cents:

Mr.Right - Banned For Life 03-27-2006 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Frackas
These are all good points and illustrate an important question: "what makes your site/product stand out from the rest?" "How are you going to be different? and "how are you going to keep your members or keep them returning?

I do believe we are seeing a certain consolidation, leveling off, over saturation and the surfing public is a lot wiser now.....so they are more savvy shoppers.

That is so true, what sets you apart from the other 10 million porn sites out there ?

Peaches 03-27-2006 04:54 PM

It's not dying, but it's certainly consolidating. If the only real job you have ever done is porn and you're not an owner who can afford to retire soon, it's best you sharpen up your education skills if you want anything more than an entry level job in any other industry.

I've watched salaries (and commissions) for the workerbees plummet over the past 4-5 years in this biz and I think it's going to get worse. There will be a few who are making good money for the larger programs, but they will be working with golden handcuffs. They and their employers know they're stuck there.

stev0 03-27-2006 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Pimp
1:100 years ago versus 1:1000 today. well if you look at the fact that there are more than 10 times the amount of people on the internet today than there was even a few years ago, then you are converting the same people and more now.

excellent point

After Shock Media 03-27-2006 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentmaster
You are not suggesting the cliquish comradery needed in order to succeed in adult right? Evidently if there is some other level of dumbed down social connectiveness necessary in order to ensure my success, please tell and instruct me. I've been eager to put my bar manners to good use.

Well that cliquish stuff helps but is not what I was talking about.

Though out this thread there has primarly been talk about traffic, getting it, and converting it. Been some talk about being innovative and even some talk about content.
Still have not seen a whole lot of discussion about keeping the members you do get. Businesses are built on returning clients and most fail if they rely on one time shoppers. New blood helps but it should never be the main focal point of any business. So often it seems programs spend obscene amounts of money trying to get new customers but if you take a look inside they obviously are not spending the same amount or more keeping the ones they do have. Of course there are several exceptional programs that do just that and they not only see the results but so do all of their revshare affiliates (even if the offer pps for the fools). We all should know the saying about keeping a customer...

Now before anyone goes on about customers quickly cancel or are to jaded or what ever the fucking reason, think before you reply. They only quickly cancel or are jaded because of just what I was saying, few programs give a rats ass about them once they have them inside the doors.

For affiliates of course this may not seem to apply but trust me it does. For once look past the amount they are willing to pay you and check into the sites and the program. Make sure it would keep you as a customer before you decide to push what traffic you have at it. Because trust me if you just keep throwing your traffic to whomever happens to be paying a large sum you very will could be one of the very reasons so many customers are getting jaded to begin with.

The Other Steve 03-27-2006 05:24 PM

Amen Brother After Shock

It's been something Marie and I have been saying for quite a while but few people listen.

Peaches 03-27-2006 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media
For once look past the amount they are willing to pay you and check into the sites and the program. Make sure it would keep you as a customer before you decide to push what traffic you have at it. Because trust me if you just keep throwing your traffic to whomever happens to be paying a large sum you very will could be one of the very reasons so many customers are getting jaded to begin with.

I think a lot of people would be amazed at what's inside some of the larger programs and how few times new content is added (if ever).

Join a few sites for each program (NOT UNDER YOUR AFFLIATE CODE as that's frowned on by several programs) , take a look a around and keep your membership for 3 months and see if you see changes. If not, you can guarantee the surfer isn't either. Yes, it costs money, but geeze - it cost money to make money ;) Treat it as a business.

You can do the same with the free email proggies - come up with several different emails and use a different email for each (like [email protected], [email protected], etc) and see what's inside there AND what additional mailings that specific email address gets.

After Shock Media 03-27-2006 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peaches
I think a lot of people would be amazed at what's inside some of the larger programs and how few times new content is added (if ever).

Join a few sites for each program (NOT UNDER YOUR AFFLIATE CODE as that's frowned on by several programs) , take a look a around and keep your membership for 3 months and see if you see changes. If not, you can guarantee the surfer isn't either. Yes, it costs money, but geeze - it cost money to make money ;) Treat it as a business.

You can do the same with the free email proggies - come up with several different emails and use a different email for each (like [email protected], [email protected], etc) and see what's inside there AND what additional mailings that specific email address gets.


Shh people may learn something and actually have to do some work.

Peaches 03-27-2006 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media
Shh people may learn something and actually have to do some work.

Sorry, sometimes I forget most are working for beer money :thumbsup

After Shock Media 03-27-2006 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peaches
Sorry, sometimes I forget most are working for beer money :thumbsup

Do not forget the extra amount to bribe some dude in the parking lot to buy it for them.

Peaches 03-27-2006 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media
Do not forget the extra amount to bribe some dude in the parking lot to buy it for them.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Greg B 03-27-2006 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kristin
Is it possible we are working in an ever-growing dying business? Think about ratios over the last eight years, from 1:100 to 1:1000ish, more traffic these days is less sales, as newer young adults get CC's they have already been exposed to millions of free pictures. Every day we all seem to "trade" traffic, exchange sales almost. We have massive groups of people that won't ever buy porn, and that group is growing as more free services come out.

So, think about over the last eight years, have we increased or decreased as an industry? I see nothing but an overall decrease in almost all areas of adult, so why do we continue to work for a business that statistically is dying?

And please do not come on this post and say oh well my site is rocking with 1:200 and spam your shit ? we know as an industry we are not doing as well as we once were. I?ve seen the post from the big boys all the way down.

So what?s it worth to you? From a big webmaster that?s making millions to a smaller webmaster starting out, is it worth the struggle, the laws, the slaps in the face to wake up to a 1:2500 ratio? I?ll admit it ? last week we woke up to some of the worst ratios we?ve seen in a LONG time. Hell, this year has been all over the board.

What are your thoughts?

Nahhh, it just keeps getting better and better especially if you're in the cartoon end of the biz.

czarina 03-27-2006 05:58 PM

If the US government stopped screwing with us, this would definitely be a non-dying industry. But at this pace, I'm quite scared. Let's see what happens when Bush is gone

After Shock Media 03-27-2006 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by czarina
If the US government stopped screwing with us, this would definitely be a non-dying industry. But at this pace, I'm quite scared. Let's see what happens when Bush is gone

Compared to the 80's the Government has yet begun to screw with us at all.

GTS Mark 03-27-2006 06:10 PM

Platinum Dave pretty much nailed it with his response. The smaller fish will be gobbled up and the strong will survive.

The days of making a quick buck are over, welcome to the real world.

DH

Nicky 03-27-2006 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media
Do not forget the extra amount to bribe some dude in the parking lot to buy it for them.

hehe good one :1orglaugh

Awesome thread this, please keep voicing your opinion everyone :thumbsup

KCat 03-27-2006 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2
Digging for gold isn't always the best way to make a fortune during a gold rush.

The glut of adult webmasters has made it harder to sell porn, but has created entirely new markets.
Think of the money being made by people like NATS, MPA, Stats Remote, Hosting Companies, Offshore outsourcing companies, etc etc etc. (Hell, look at GFY)
These people made the webmaster their customer instead of the porn consumer and in essence turned lemons into lemonade.

This is a great point & like the gold rush, lots of folks made more money selling the pick axes, setting up whorehouses & so on to the prospectors.

KCat 03-27-2006 11:32 PM

Whoops! Guess I should've kept reading before I replied. :)

AfterShock & Peaches make great points too. I keep getting emails from programs that push crap like herbal penis pills & they wonder why I won't throw up a banner. My bookmarkers & members know me & *trust* me. If I started promoting garbage, the payouts could never be high enough to salvage my business.

bigdog 03-28-2006 06:20 AM

Also these days there a lot of high quality sites to choose from in different niches. Why stay a member on one site when there are so many too choose from. For example back in the day BlacksonBlondes was the only place to get high quality interracial movies, not anymore.


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