AdultWire

If the majority of sponsors truly shaved, wouldn't this industry have been bombarded with class action suits already? Or does the adult industry rely on the "blackmale" factor that most of its webmasters appear (by their attutudes) to be adolescents without the fortitude or the gonads to fight back?

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Theo

nobody ever shaved anyone
its a myth

Sly_RJ

I run everything through the shaver every morning before most of you are even awake, no law suits yet!

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heymatty

the following do not shave

click

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amadman

I dont buy it. I have seen cheaters in every part of this industry. So I dont see how there would be no one cheating this way as well.

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AdultWire

I'm not suggesting that no-one cheats.. I have certainly come accross a company or two that cheat, but why have there been no class action suits? I think most of you are using that as an excuse for your near complete failure in the adult industry to be honest.

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Backov

Perhaps you can enlighten us just how one would file a class action suit for shaving with no evidence?

Cheers,
Backov

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AdultWire

Are you saying that in the history of the adult industry, there has been no evidence that anyone has shaved? A statement like that would speak for itself!

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amadman

I have seen a utility that was designed to shave. That says alot allso.

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Bruno

I saw printscreens of that utility too... the owner of the paysite would choose the % that would be shaved and only the rest would be counted and loged....

Take care,

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Tipsy

Huge thread about that script not too long ago. Also you really think all of these programs can pay up to $50 for a trial if they didn't? Granted not all do but there's always plenty gready enough to make those few extra $'s. To say nobody does is at best naive.

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AdultWire

Well, everybody knows there are tools designed for shaving -- but who uses them? Do you guys regularly sign into business contracts and then not enforce them? It sounds like you're all big victims to me.

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Mogul

Backov has as point.

How do you know they are shaving? What is your proof? Your own stats? Well how does the court know that your stats are not fictitious.

Also, with most programs, they are not responsible for technical errors and their server logs are the official stats.

Cheating started back with the first programs and goes on to this day.

The difference is today, webmaster cheating is much more prevalent than it was in the beginning.

Also think about this. Let's say you bring a class action against a sponsor program. Do you not think that every well known sponsor out there will look to get all the people taking part and perhaps go as far as banning them from their programs? Even if they are legit, why take the chance with trouble makers.

Most people do not realize, until they make it good, just how networked the business is.

The sad reality is cheating on both sides will continue for some time.

Mogul
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12clicks

ok, ok. Every sponsor shaves. there, its true. Now what?

are you earning more money now then 5 minutes ago?
hahahahahaha
people that worry about things outside of their control, whether true or false, generally don't make it in this biz. ;)

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Tipsy

Very true. End of the day the important figure is how much you make. If a sponsor shaves 5% but makes you 10%+ more than any other then I aint gonna drop them. Accusations of shaving are thrown about usually because of peoples inability to sell a certain site. Your bottom line is all that counts.

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Sexymail

I know the programmer that made a script for a pretty successful sponsor program that has a shaver built in, you can adjust the % in about 3 clicks

Tipsy

Again, it's the bottom line that counts. If a sponsor is shaving but paying more because of it and in turn making you more despite any shaves it matters little. No victims as such just a slightly fucked up way of doing business.

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Sexymail

also, who in their right mind would sue a sponsor that is more than likely their bread and butter? That person isnt using that sponsor for fun, they are using that sponsor cause that particular person can convert them better than others and make them cash no other sponsor can. Yeah the shaving sucks ass, but I would say your hands are pretty tied unless you have really SOLID proof

Mogul

You also forgot that most adult webmasters can not afford a blowjob, let alone a lawyer

Plus, if it was close, a blow job gets priority.

Mogul
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:D

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Milton

Well some shaving some dont..i only promote them i trust ! go with your trustable sponsors..then no worries.

ServerGenius

Tools for shaving....hmmm isn't it just a hell of a lot easier
to just have a shit tracking method? Cookies for example...
then there is no real Shaving....but referrers will just get lost!

I think bad tracking software is the number 1 reason for
accusations of companies shaving..,,, believe it or not
but most tracking software just isn't 100% reliable and accurate.

DynaMite

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Turboface

I have personally used the following shaving tools: Gillette Sensor & the Gillette Mach III.

Gillette also makes some good aftershave too - The gel is better than the lotion though.

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AdultWire

I agree with this.. I think most adult webmasters are probably alcoholics and stoners who failed miserably at everything else and are able to barely scrape by with their thumbnail gallery profits.

Am I wrong?

Responses from Lensman and The Hun not required.

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Mogul

I would not disagree.

There are some great people out there though but if you look at numbers, most are just doing this for, who knows why. They use free hosting and content and make under $200 a month.

Let's also not forget that most people are not educated in the way of business ownership, legalities, accounting, etc..

I think sometimes people get mad but do not know what to do about it and time passes until things are passed.

BTW, still running that free host?

The best way to make sure you are not being shaved is to do things yourself or with real professionals.

If you are sold on glamour numbers like $40,$50,$100 a signup, etc then you should expect some behind the scenes shaving to take place so the company can afford to pay you those numbers.

Of course, without sponsors, what would you do for money if you did not run your own stuff?

Mogul
ContentLotto.com

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LiveDose

Good points made by all. Every business has demons, in ours they are sponsor shaving and webmaster cheating. Retail deals with theft and sale of grey market items... Of course the issues are more broad than this but you get the point.

Adultwire, not everyone in the adult biz is stoned and drunk 247, many are but not all. There are many people who have the monetary capacity to bring a lawsuit however as stated earlier in this post your ability to do business online in the adult area would be severely hindered whether you won or lost. This business is a very very tight network controlled at the top. Also as stated earlier there is just not enough solid proof that it is going on. C'est la vie...

Bitching about the shaving on a message board is just a nice release for those who get fed up or pissed once in a while. It's a way to let sponsors know that we know it's going on but as long as we can still make the bucks we'll deal with it as opposed to sitting behind someone else's desk 9-5.

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Chris R

People come on every board saying sponsor xyz is shaving - and with no proof other than their sales are down.

I think that says a lot about the person. It is one thing to say "Sponsor A doesn't work for me" versus "Sponsor A is Shaving". It is unprofessional. Anyone that is that unprofessional - no wonder they aren't making sales.

The last sahving thread you have people accusing two major sponsor that I deal with of shaving - and in one of the last threads about good sponsors - others raving about the same sponsor.

Is it possible they are shaving? Sure. But if they are paing you more for your traffic than anyone else - where are you going to send yours.

The ARS board is the worst. On their you see the same people bitching week after week - my conversion are down to 1:264789 But they still continue to use ARS. If you use more than one sponsor - you should be able to get an across the board idea of how your sales are doing. If you aren't cutting it - that is YOUR FAULT - not theirs. People blame their lose of sales on everything from the $1 iBill donation - to multiple sales promotinons like ARS' 80 sales, and MaxCash's iwantsex.com. If they spent less time blaming others - they might do better.

LiveDose

Chris,

Great post except for that statement. If a sponsor is shaving then webmasters have a right to complain. Otherwise the TOS should state something to the effect that, "we reserve the right to "shave" from time to time in order to maintain the profitability of this program". No?

I agree that many people straight out blame their failure on shaving which is wrong. Many of us are making a lot of money even with the shaving. And I understand why the shaving goes on. But it is in fact wrong to do, bottom line. Therefore webmasters do have a point. The sponsors are all trying to fight for webmasters therefore they are promising more than they can deliver. If there was a trend back to more relistic payscale then maybe the shving could be dropped. But now that it has been incorporated into the system I doubt if it will ever be rid of no matter what the circumstances.

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Mr. Grimm

this is a joke right?

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LiveDose

yup, a joke.... haha

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AdultWire

I think it's tragic that this business sees itself as so dishonest that it's not even expected that a company should try to meet the terms and conditions of a contract that they sign into.

Bah.. whatever.. Yes BTW Mogul, I am still running the freehost. It makes me pennies, but the cost of ownership is lower than the profit it generates.

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Doctor Dre

Nop ... nobody shave ... It's my outdoing script that's wrong when he say I send 1000 hits and get 30 counted ... and after I wonder why I do 1:100 with this sponsor and I do 1:600 with others mmmmmm their conversions must kick ass :D

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candidpublishinginc

Docter Dre,

It's because these sponsors count 2nd page clicks.

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Chris R

You are right - IF sponsors are shaving - it is wrong. I see plenty of people stating this or that sponsor shaves - with no proof. I just don't sit there and think about it. There is really no way I could no either way - so I just send my traffic to whoever sends me the most money.

Maybe I am naive, but I like the checks I am getting.

Paul Markham

We shave loads of the girsl. In fact we even have a "Shaven" section in our searc engine.

Aaron what do you mean "I do not understand the Net"

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chodadog

hahahah!

Biggy2

is this thread for real

Paul Markham

In Amsterdam I was tlaking to the owner of one of the very biggest site, who said.

"If you do not shave it's not worth doing it"

The explanation was, what they now offer to pay out is so much that it would send them bankrupt to pay everyone for every convert.
It has become a Dutch auction with every one offering more and more money at the top end, which is paid for by shaving at the bottom end.

Don't know if it's true, just it's what I was told.
But it makes sense.

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AdultWire

If criminals didn't steal cars, they might starve to death. Yes, I am comparing the adult industry to a bunch of car-theives.

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Kimmykim

Who really cares????


The bottom line is simple. You send X number of clicks to sponsors A, B and C.

Who sends you the biggest check for those clicks?

Duh.