Obscenity prosecution.. nuisance.. quickest way to affect GUBA.

[Brad Mitchell]

http://img.guba.com/public/image/4/72/60269172-b.gif

They host the images. Do a search on fisting... torture... list goes on and on. Someone find a local prosecutor somewhere in the US to press charges for allowing such obscene content to be viewed, by minors no less, because it is without any form of acceptable age verification in the uncensored free preview area.

Not to mention the fact that they make possible the viewing of all kinds of content that Visa would never approve.

Or, if you just have tons of traffic and want to cause them headache simply hotlink their images and movies as they seem to be relatively unprotected.

Cheers,

Brad

[TexasDreams]

People that bitch about Guba stealing, but are in CLEAR violation of the GFY rules with their sigs, and stealing views from paying top sponsors. Pot calling the kettle black???

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

People that bitch about Guba stealing, but are in CLEAR violation of the GFY rules with their sigs, and stealing views from paying top sponsors. Pot calling the kettle black???

yes and gfy staff cracks on them every now and then and fixes things

[Brad Mitchell]

With regard to having a 240x60 in my signature, last I spoke with Eric that was OK. It wasn't a problem for the last *4000* posts. I am an advertiser for years, occasionally a top advertiser, and your comments are unappreciated but my error is corrected.

This might be GFY but there is a more polite way to do business and if you don't like the way that I represent here on GFY perhaps you should discuss it privately with me or take it up with Lensman, Eric or Poppy.

Brad

[TexasDreams]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

yes and gfy staff cracks on them every now and then and fixes things

Now if only Skufty could teach me algebra.

[Trax]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

People that bitch about Guba stealing, but are in CLEAR violation of the GFY rules with their sigs, and stealing views from paying top sponsors. Pot calling the kettle black???

his sig aint in violation
whining mods are a bitch

[EdgeXXX]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

Now if only Skufty could teach me algebra.

Skufty only does algerbra

[TexasDreams]

Originally Posted by Trax

his sig aint in violation
whining mods are a bitch

It clearly was before I killed it, and he resized it.

[CDSmith]

All these "let's kill GUBA -- Your sig is too big -- How much does Skufty charge for algebra lessons" threads are really getting good.

Popcorn time.

[Brad Mitchell]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

It clearly was before I killed it, and he resized it.

I know, 240x60 is huge. Well, someone has to moderate... could be worse, they could be outsourcing moderation. LOL

Brad

[TheDoc]

I don't see why everyone is all over them. They said they would filter your content if you asked. However, I will take his CC holding traffic for my sites any day if they like my content.

A lot of sponsors have news groups, you people need to look around. Guba isn't the only newsgroup adult sponsor either.

Now I have no idea how they have it setup, but as long as they have the header, posters email and body, at least links to it, and clean it as best as they can. They can use the newsgroup feeds legally, pretty much not a damn thing anyone can do about it thanks to good'ol US law.

Newsgroups are legal to display like this, people need to deal with it.

[Niko Bimini]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

It clearly was before I killed it, and he resized it.

Wow guess you really showed him didn't ya.


Maybe throw in an obnoxious number of these next time to really show him who is boss!

[Tempest]

I don't understand why people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers when 1, 2 or 3 little companies could get together, pool some cash and hire some cheap labour out of some outsourcing companies and have those guys just police newgroups, Guba, password sites and the like. Surely the money they think they're losing would MORE than offset the cost.

[TexasDreams]

Originally Posted by Bimini

Wow guess you really showed him didn't ya.


Maybe throw in an obnoxious number of these next time to really show him who is boss!

Will do!

[Trax]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

It clearly was before I killed it, and he resized it.

how about you spend your valueable time to remove the klikrev sigwhores who are obviously no webmasters instead of playing with brads sig?

[TexasDreams]

Originally Posted by Trax

how about you spend your valueable time to remove the klikrev sigwhores who are obviously no webmasters instead of playing with brads sig?

Actually they are now a TOP sponsor.

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

Actually they are now a TOP sponsor.

given todays drama this just caps it off for me and proves one of my points.

[Niko Bimini]

Eeeeeewwwww so mighty and powerful. What will I do now?

[TexasDreams]

Originally Posted by Bimini

Eeeeeewwwww so mighty and powerful. What will I do now?

Create a sig that's within the rules???

[Niko Bimini]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

Create a sig that's within the rules???

Not a problem.

This is within the rules.

[Niko Bimini]

BUMP for my new sig!!!

[EdgeXXX]

Originally Posted by Bimini

BUMP for my new sig!!!

Oh sh!t

[Phoenix]

fuck nothing worse then having your sig killed

[xNetworx]

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

Cheers,

Brad

Brad, as a hosting provider, do you have any thoughts on hosting the top guba affiliates ?

[MickeyG]

Originally Posted by Bimini

BUMP for my new sig!!!

nice one

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by TexasDreams

People that bitch about Guba stealing, but are in CLEAR violation of the GFY rules with their sigs, and stealing views from paying top sponsors. Pot calling the kettle black???

Sounded like a vengeance post. You like guba, so you decided to give Brad shit with your Admin position ? Or maybe you just don't like Brad.

[Niko Bimini]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Sounded like a vengeance post. You like guba, so you decided to give Brad shit with your Admin position ? Or maybe you just don't like Brad.

Ahhhh you are very wise man!

But be carefull, I defended Brad and got my sig killed.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I don't see why everyone is all over them. They said they would filter your content if you asked. However, I will take his CC holding traffic for my sites any day if they like my content.

They did ? I didn't see that. I saw them say that if you look on their sites and find your own content, you can request to have it removed. They didn't offer to block the search queries. It's been pointed out in several threads for example that you can find hundreds of Lightspeed girls. So, if Guba cares about blocking content they know is stolen, why wouldn't they just force it to return "No Matches" ? I think that would show some good faith.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Bimini

Ahhhh you are very wise man!

But be carefull, I defended Brad and got my sig killed.

Selective, emotional enforcement ? What sig rule did you violate ?

[Niko Bimini]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Selective, emotional enforcement ? What sig rule did you violate ?

I have no idea, Im sure there is something he can point to.

But MY point is that was my sig for 2 years now and nobody said a word. He jumps on Brad in a very asshole way, I say something about it, and my sig is gone.

No biggie. It must suck to be a 40 + rent a cop on GFY, with a tiny cock, and gay fantasies about NIKO BIMINI!!!!!!

[Brujah]

Aww I was just poking fun at TD though. I tried it the other day too, but no one seemed to find it as funny as I did I guess. My humor is a little more dry, and sometimes subtle..

See ?
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/575304-ode-gfy-moderator.html

[Gerco]

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

http://img.guba.com/public/image/4/72/60269172-b.gif

They host the images. Do a search on fisting... torture... list goes on and on. Someone find a local prosecutor somewhere in the US to press charges for allowing such obscene content to be viewed, by minors no less, because it is without any form of acceptable age verification in the uncensored free preview area.

Not to mention the fact that they make possible the viewing of all kinds of content that Visa would never approve.

Or, if you just have tons of traffic and want to cause them headache simply hotlink their images and movies as they seem to be relatively unprotected.

Cheers,

Brad

Why do you think that "fisting" is obscence? In fact is a normal practice that quite a few groups engage in daily. It's not to hurt someone or degrade them in anyway and the reciever and giver are willing and want it to happen AND enjoy themselves during the act. I'm sick of people pointing to it as "Obscence". Obscence is when one or more partys to the act DO NOT have a choice in that act, be it by force or mental capabiliaty. (See underage or bestiality) THATS what I would find obscence. People shooting shit out of thier asses all over themselves? Hey if they like it who am I to judge them... It's not hurting anyone, YOU don't have to look at the pictures. Mostly people point to something as obscence due thier own lack of understanding as to what a subject is about.

[RawAlex]

This is what I don't figure out - get with the FSC people fighting the 2257 rules, and get them to talk to the DoJ - serve up this cesspool of unlicensed and non-2257 documents images, and let them take Guba down in very short order.

Our industry could do itself a huge favor by getting the DoJ to actually be on our side once in a while.

Alex

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Gerco

Why do you think that "fisting" is obscence? In fact is a normal practice that quite a few groups engage in daily. It's not to hurt someone or degrade them in anyway and the reciever and giver are willing and want it to happen AND enjoy themselves during the act. I'm sick of people pointing to it as "Obscence". Obscence is when one or more partys to the act DO NOT have a choice in that act, be it by force or mental capabiliaty. (See underage or bestiality) THATS what I would find obscence. People shooting shit out of thier asses all over themselves? Hey if they like it who am I to judge them... It's not hurting anyone, YOU don't have to look at the pictures. Mostly people point to something as obscence due thier own lack of understanding as to what a subject is about.

It's not that Brad thinks it's obscene but that current US law states that fisting is obscene. Either way, I gave it some thought, and I think it would be the wrong move for this industry to support prosecution of a company based on obscenity.

[Deej]

See Sig here.... Promote it.... mmmmm Titty!

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Gerco

Why do you think that "fisting" is obscence? In fact is a normal practice that quite a few groups engage in daily. It's not to hurt someone or degrade them in anyway and the reciever and giver are willing and want it to happen AND enjoy themselves during the act. I'm sick of people pointing to it as "Obscence". Obscence is when one or more partys to the act DO NOT have a choice in that act, be it by force or mental capabiliaty. (See underage or bestiality) THATS what I would find obscence. People shooting shit out of thier asses all over themselves? Hey if they like it who am I to judge them... It's not hurting anyone, YOU don't have to look at the pictures. Mostly people point to something as obscence due thier own lack of understanding as to what a subject is about.

While I basically agree with you, you must realize that obscenity laws aren't based on what you as an individual *think* is obscene or isn't. Material is deemed obscene when it is compared to the community standard of tolerance and found to be over the line.

It's certainly not a perfect system of determining it because one man's meat is another man's poison, no question, but it's the only system society has for obscenity determination.

As far as I know, fisting falls outside the community standard of tolerance in much if not all of the USA currently.

[Gerco]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

While I basically agree with you, you must realize that obscenity laws aren't based on what you as an individual *think* is obscene or isn't. Material is deemed obscene when it is compared to the community standard of tolerance and found to be over the line.

It's certainly not a perfect system of determining it because one man's meat is another man's poison, no question, but it's the only system society has for obscenity determination.

As far as I know, fisting falls outside the community standard of tolerance in much if not all of the USA currently.

I would like to SEE this law. The one thats actually states fisting is illegal in the US. The most notable case I can find is People of the State of California v. Adam Glasser and Glasser reached a favorable plea bargain in 2002 in which all obscenity charges were dropped.

The internet is a community and if judged by that then there are more examples than I could list here, (Fistinglessons, Fistbang) for example. If you do searches on fisting you get back 8,950,000 returns in yahoo, 4,100,000 google, with a google definition of -

fisting

Fisting (also FF, or Fist Fucking) is a human sexual behaviour that involves inserting the entire hand, and sometimes part of the arm, into the vagina (vaginal fisting) or anus (handballing or anal fisting) of a sexual partner. The medical terms for these practices are brachiovaginal eroticism (vaginal) and brachioproctic eroticism (anal). The practice was first documented in San Francisco in the 1960's and 1970's.

Often, fisting does not involve forcing the clenched fist into the vagina or anus. Instead, all five fingers are kept straight and held as close together as possible (forming a beak-like shape), then the hand is slowly inserted into a well-lubricated vagina or anus. Once insertion is complete, the fingers either clench into a fist or remain straight, but in more extreme forms of this practice, such as "punching," a fully clenched fist may be inserted and withdrawn.

Incidence

Due to the potential risks, lack of knowledge, perceived pain level and taboos, the number of people who engage in fisting of any kind is likely much smaller than for other sexual activities.

While handballing is popularly associated with gay men, it is practiced by people of all sexual orientations. Handballing is pleasurable for some men because it results in direct stimulation of the prostate.

Vaginal fisting is known to be practiced by lesbians, bisexuals, and heterosexuals; a few women with very flexible bodies and wrists are able to perform it on themselves. Perineal massage, an exercise recommended to couples who are preparing to give birth, sometimes results in fisting.

In the 1980s and 1990s depictions of fisting lapsed into taboo in North American-produced pornography, and on several occasions in which such acts were depicted, the producers of videos and films often found themselves defending against obscenity charges in court. One of the highest-profile cases, People of the State of California v. Adam Glasser, et al., involved producer Adam Glasser (a.k.a. "Seymore Butts") who was taken to court over a fisting scene in his 1999 video Tampa Tushy Fest. Glasser pleaded not guilty to misdemeanor charges of "production, distribution or exhibition of obscene matter" and "advertising or promoting matter represented to be obscene." Glasser reached a favorable plea bargain in 2002 in which all obscenity charges were dropped. Fisting is no longer considered a porn taboo, although it is still rarely depicted on screen. In European pornography, however, depictions of fisting are commonplace.

Health and safety

Fisting is generally considered low risk for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), provided a few basic precautions are followed, but there are other serious health risks that must be taken into careful consideration before engaging in the activity. Fisting is sometimes seen as a violent activity, but that is not usually the case; done properly, it is gentle and slow. Done improperly, fisting can result in serious injuries including ruptured bowels and internal tears and infections, as well as urinary tract infections and pelvic inflammatory disease, bruising of the cervix, mucosal laceration, muscle tearing, and temporary fecal incontinence, among other conditions, sterility and even death. When fisting is done slowly and carefully, the risks are quite low.

Fecal matter can cause irritation; any abrasions can easily become infected, but douches and enemas can also cause irritation. The fingernails of the fister must be trimmed and filed, and his or her hands covered with nitrile or latex (but not vinyl) gloves or calving gloves. Both the fister's hands and the anus or vagina of the fistee must be very well lubricated, usually with a thick water-based or silicone-based sex lubricant (latex products and oil-based products should not be used together as oil weakens latex. Oil-free lubricants suitable for use with latex are widely available). Sometimes vegetable shortening or mineral oil are used for anal fisting, but these oil-based lubricants should not be used in the vagina as they decrease the body's ability to maintain the proper balance of bacteria.

Pain and/or bleeding are warning signs; significant bleeding could indicate a ruptured bowel or a major tear.

While most people do not mix fisting with recreational drugs, muscle relaxants (most notably "poppers"-amyl nitrite ) are sometimes used with handballing. The use of drugs may increase the risks of serious injury from fisting, for example by reducing the sensation of pain, reducing inhibitions or causing loss of consciousness.

Fisting has quickly and increasingly become associated with drug abuse, most notably Methamphetamine (see Crystal methamphetamine and sex).

See also

* Anal sex
* Mutual masturbation
* Perineal massage

References

* Donovan B; Tindall B; Cooper D. Brachioproctic eroticism and transmission of retrovirus associated with acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). Genitourin Med. 1986 Dec;62(6):390-2.
* Medical terminology and some information on risks were taken from The Intelligent Man's Guide To Handball

Now it's interesting, that you can find all this information quickly and without the information police pounding at your door. I actually really like googles definition about fisting, one of the best put definitions I have ever seen. REad the google definition of it, understand it then form an opion about it, but don't jump directly to obscenity.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Gerco

The internet is a community and if judged by that then there are more examples than I could list here,

Like I said earlier, while I do tend to agree with you, this argument too is invalid. The community the laws refer to is the community at large, in any given juristiction. In fact, a particular type of content may be left alone in one state but would never fly in a million years in another.

However, with regard to fisting there is a lot of it out there. As far as riding the line goes I'd say producing and promoting it is a bit risky in the US, but obviously people are doing it and seem to be getting away with it.... for now.

As I'm not the internet police I woudn't think of pointing the finger at someone for having it, it's up to them whether they want to risk it or not. It doesn't fall outside MY standard of tolerance :D

(It's actually not my cup of tea either, but to each their own)

[CDSmith]

By the way, I have found that the legal system (in Canada, most likely in the US and other countries as well) has been very slow to catch up with what the community standard of tolerance really is out there. The internet has broadened the boundaries considerably in ten years, but there are still a lot of stuffy old judges and cops that are out of touch with where those boundaries now lay.

One example is the word "Pornography" itself. Most people I know no longer consider simple nudity as porn. Back in the 70's and probably even through much of the 80's they did, hell a mere playboy was described as a pornographic magazine back then. But nowadays for material to qualify as porn in most people's minds it needs to have some further sexual content to it.

The line has moved in our favor, but those who side with the censorists are definitely going to try to push the line back, and sooner or later they're going to push harder than ever. We've already seen that happening, what with recent news of certain webmasters, some of whom are into the more extreme stuff, being arrested, charged and hauled into court.

The fact that the participants are all consenting adults isn't always a winning argument.

[Gerco]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Like I said earlier, while I do tend to agree with you, this argument too is invalid. The community the laws refer to is the community at large, in any given juristiction. In fact, a particular type of content may be left alone in one state but would never fly in a million years in another.

However, with regard to fisting there is a lot of it out there. As far as riding the line goes I'd say producing and promoting it is a bit risky in the US, but obviously people are doing it and seem to be getting away with it.... for now.

As I'm not the internet police I woudn't think of pointing the finger at someone for having it, it's up to them whether they want to risk it or not. It doesn't fall outside MY standard of tolerance :D

(It's actually not my cup of tea either, but to each their own)

Yes, but your seem to be the type of person who I tend to think, looks at things a little more logically. My whole issue here is that once again, people have pointed to something they really have no understanding about and tagged it bad. I applaud your perpective on it and find it refreashing to read anothers point of view on the matter. It's not YOUR cup of tea but your open enough no not condem it outright. It may be a "grey" area in the US legal system but untill there this an actual case and law set forth stating its unallowable, it's allowable. This whole "Let's get guba" crap is snowballing into areas that are going to start effecting others even more so that gubas thieft of our content. Hell, Guba has a shitload of my stuff on thier site, I searched it last night, even asked for a "free username and password" to search further, (No reply). But what would hurt me worse, Guba using a few of my pictures and video, or doing something that actually creates a firm law against certain types of products that many of us produce and shutting us down for good?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

http://img.guba.com/public/image/4/72/60269172-b.gif

They host the images. Do a search on fisting... torture... list goes on and on. Someone find a local prosecutor somewhere in the US to press charges for allowing such obscene content to be viewed, by minors no less, because it is without any form of acceptable age verification in the uncensored free preview area.

Brad, as a customer of yours I have a problem with you advocating stirring up prosecutions against *anybody* in the adult industry. I'm perfectly cool with the fact that we disagree about somebody else's business practices, but I don't think it makes sense for someone in the adult hosting business to be calling for obscenity prosecutions of adult websites, no matter what their other sins may be.

Just my .

[Bansheelinks]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Brad, as a customer of yours I have a problem with you advocating stirring up prosecutions against *anybody* in the adult industry. I'm perfectly cool with the fact that we disagree about somebody else's business practices, but I don't think it makes sense for someone in the adult hosting business to be calling for obscenity prosecutions of adult websites, no matter what their other sins may be.

Just my .

I completely agree with you, Forkbeard. Travelling down the road of nailing someone like GUBA for 'obscenity' is a slippery slope, to say the very least. Best to shitcan that type of thinking.......it gives the Bushite-hypocrites even more of a forum and more power at our expense.

[V_RocKs]

Guba and the OLD Napster are VERY much alike... Only, the OLD Napster didn't charge a fee for the service.

The content is on GUBA's servers... OLD Napster stored the user file lists on their servers...

The content being 'traded' is STOLEN in both cases...

In both cases if the users quit going to paid outlets authorized to dispurse the content in question then the content producer will go out of business...

There are NO differences. The ONLY way newsgroups can be a viable content distribution medium is if the sponsors can decide on the terms. The only profitable terms are to include watermarks in pics and to only allow content already released as affiliate promotional material to be used. ie, FHG content or released set zips.

In this case the users type in or in some cases click a link in the post (though you cannot do this at GUBA (put a link in a post)) and then buy the website in question.

[beemk]

as much as i think what they're doing is wrong, i would never snitch on someone to get them arrested for obscenity. besides it would be bad for the adult industry as a whole.

[Brad Mitchell]

OK... couple of things. First, last night was a late night and I probably should have gone to bed rather than post... but maybe not, because this thread is more interesting now.

I do, however, feel the need to clarify my position-

First, I don't personally find anything obscene that involves consenting adults and is properly documented. If the fist fits.... LOL

Second, as a web host I would have serious issue with any customer that was posting newsgroup and unlicensed content. I am good friends with countless program owners that pay top dollar to produce their own content and my own standards for practicing business simply would not allow a client to publish photos and videos unless they were licensed to them or they were an affiliate of a program. If not my own standards, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. It's really simple - if you're going to post images of a Lightspeed girl you had best be an affiliate and using approved content from Steve. Unlicensed content is unlicensed content and a legitimate DMCA complaint will result in any such content removal request being handled expeditiously or the site owner and potentially it's host are at risk.

Third, I don't *personally* want to see any prosecution based on obscenity unless it's something that would finally clarify what is acceptable and what isn't in this country. We all agree that 'community standards' is crap, especially if you live in some god-forsaken community. Although we would all prefer that the government stay out completely, it would certainly help the *bulk* of us if they would just come up with some standard on a national level so that we could all sleep at night knowing that we are compliant and completely within our rights, not to be whisked away and held without bail at a moments notice... but, I think we will be waiting for pigs to fly before that ever happens.

Fourth... I'd love to see a .KIDS top level domain so that filtering could be done so easily and be inclusive, not exclusive. Like it or not, the reality of our current environment is that hardcore and extreme content not protected by some type of age verification or proper process is at risk. Not dissimilar to if one was to own a magazine stand and allow everyone to view and or purchase adult material without checking ID. This is an area where companies clearly exercise their own judgement and the amount of risk they are willing to take and that is why we see the gamut of tours and promotions ranging from censored to uncensored.

I am not a lawyer, these are just my thoughts. It does appear to me that they are completely republishing and hosting content that is not licensed to them and not using much judgement as to the variety that they are indexing and making available. For those that are very unhappy with their business model, it would seem to me that an appeal to Visa/Mastercard would actually be the most effective. We have all learned through the IPSPs what Visa/MC are approving and not approving and it is also my understanding that licensure of said content is also a likely issue for them.

That's my for now.

Brad

P.S. - So TexasDreams, ya just didn't like me before you opened the thread or you were just doing your job?

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Gerco

(See underage or bestiality) THATS what I would find obscence.

hmmm, when did laws become according to Gerco?

[SilentKnight]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Brad, as a customer of yours I have a problem with you advocating stirring up prosecutions against *anybody* in the adult industry. I'm perfectly cool with the fact that we disagree about somebody else's business practices, but I don't think it makes sense for someone in the adult hosting business to be calling for obscenity prosecutions of adult websites, no matter what their other sins may be.

Just my .

I don't agree with Brad's suggestion either - but hearing you say say so is laughable coming from someone predisposed to reselling stolen content in the first place.

In your mind, one hampster is saying "theft is ok, no problem"...while the other is saying "yeah, as long as no one turns us in."

[Bansheelinks]

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

OK... couple of things. First, last night was a late night and I probably should have gone to bed rather than post... but maybe not, because this thread is more interesting now.

I do, however, feel the need to clarify my position-


Third, I don't *personally* want to see any prosecution based on obscenity unless it's something that would finally clarify what is acceptable and what isn't in this country.

So obviously you've changed your mind in which, at the beginning of this thread, you outright advocated going after GUBA for 'obscenity.'

However, what I don't like about your clarification is when you say that you'd support an attempt to censor someone thru obscenity charges if it would "finally clarify what is acceptable and what isn't in this country."

Brad, the people in power now are reactionary neo-conservatives. I don't want THEM stacking the courts and going after webmasters to harrass us based on what they feel is 'obscene.' I can't support your position.

[Brad Mitchell]

And... just so that it's said with regard to "snitching" or "stirring" up problems for them... I didn't even know what GUBA was until this morning when I was surfing GFY. Evidently, they're doing a very good job attracting attention to their business model all on their own. If you are going to be a "high profile" company you do a disservice to our entire industry unless your business practices are, on many levels, responsible.

Brad