If it's alright to insult a mans religion why is this man wrong.

[Paul Markham]

There is no excuse for denying the Holocaust or making light of it. But if Freedom Of Speech is so important why is David Irving in danger of going to prison for exercising that right?

Read and discuss.

Then try to think of it from a Muslims point of view.

[Lazonby]

Because he is 'exercising that right' in the wrong place. I agree that Holocaust denial should be a crime in Austria and Germany, as those two countries have a real task to prevent it from ever happening again.
I don't think it should be a crime in other places though. In other places it should simply be ridiculed.
Holocaust deniers do not deny the Holocaust on any academic grounds. They do it because they hate Jews and would like to see the whole process repeated.
Contrast this with drawing cartoons of Muhammad. There's really no comparison.

In any case, when has the 'Muslim point of view' counted for anything? Everything they say and do is geared towards suppressing free speech and towards creating an Islamic state wherever they live.
You're generally on safe ground if your view is the exact opposite of the Muslim view.

[Rolo]

The mohammed cartoons were first published in Denmark, where there is freedom of speech. In Denmark you may also call the Holocaust a lie or claim that the moon is made of cheese, however since everyone else also have freedom of speech, then your arguments would probably be pulled apart, before they get any broad consensus in the public opinion... David Irving would never go to jail in Denmark.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Lazonby

Because he is 'exercising that right' in the wrong place. I agree that Holocaust denial should be a crime in Austria and Germany, as those two countries have a real task to prevent it from ever happening again.
I don't think it should be a crime in other places though. In other places it should simply be ridiculed.
Holocaust deniers do not deny the Holocaust on any academic grounds. They do it because they hate Jews and would like to see the whole process repeated.
Contrast this with drawing cartoons of Muhammad. There's really no comparison.

Who did the first Mohammed cartoon for the Danish newspaper? A Zionist Jewish person known as Flemming Rose. No comparison? I don't know, I think he was happy to piss off the Muslims because he hated them. Also Holocaust denial is illegal in a shitload of places, including Australia. Of course it falls under 'racial vilification' in most nations, and not simply Holocaust denial, but it all has the same result (and there are documented examples in other Western nations). Fact is Irving is being tried for some speech he gave 15 years ago or something, and is facing numerous years in prison. No different to what the Chinese do about restricting free speech and internet access to issues about 'politically sensistive topics' really.

[Odin]

Just looked it up (but can't edit post). He is facing 20 years in jail for the speech he made. I knew it was some huge number.

[Paul Markham]

Your still thinking of it as a Westerner.

Imagine the response from the Deep South US if you said a pop band was nearly as important to kids as Jesus Christ.

I think they would not worry about freedom of speech. They would be rioting, bonfires of records, death threats and more if anyone said that about their God.

[Rolo]

Originally Posted by Chief

Who did the first Mohammed cartoon for the Danish newspaper? A Zionist Jewish person known as Flemming Rose. No comparison? I don't know, I think he was happy to piss off the Muslims because he hated them.

Where do you get your news from? Flemming Rose is just as much a zionist jew as you are a hardcore islamist

Let me just kill a few more bullshit stories about Denmark:

- Muslims in Denmark are against the cartoons and the danish goverment = False, it was only 5% of the muslims in Denmark who were angry about the cartoons!

- There have been Korans burned in Denmark = False, not a single page have been burned!

- There are no muslim graveyards in Denmark = False, there are many, and muslims can buy all the land they need and turn it into even more graveyards!

- Its illegal to build mosques in Denmark = False, there are lots of mosques in Denmark, and as with graveyards, then muslims are free to build all the mosques they wish!

I could go on, since there are so many bullshit stories being spread by the islamists. Its insane that the media keeps repeating them instead of doing some real journalism.

[SquireMD]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Your still thinking of it as a Westerner.

Imagine the response from the Deep South US if you said a pop band was nearly as important to kids as Jesus Christ.

I think they would not worry about freedom of speech. They would be rioting, bonfires of records, death threats and more if anyone said that about their God.

ummmm, no...try again

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by SquireMD

ummmm, no...try again

You're obviously not old enough to remember.

http://www.newsoftheodd.com/article1012.html

http://www.instantkarma.com/johnbio3.html

Ok so the Muslims take it further. But the principle is the same, John Lennon has the right to freedom of speech. And many Americans rioted because he exercised that right.

[v4 media]

There's an Italian MP wearing those cartoons on tshirts yet a few years ago the Italian government got Italian language nunsexsites hosted in the US closed down cause blasphemy is still a crime in Italy.

Draw a cartoon of a Nazi in uniform fucking a nun up the arse and you can get arrested in Italy and Germany.. double standards.. fucking stupid.

[Dood]

The Danish newspaper posted a satirical cartoon, it's comedy. The angry muslims waged violent protested that destroyed businesses and killed people, ending lives. There is no comparing the two.

I don't know much about islam, but how do the muslims even know what mohammed looks like? I though they weren't supposted to idolize him so they shouldn't have any idea what he looks like.

[Dirty Dane]

Originally Posted by Rolo

The mohammed cartoons were first published in Denmark, where there is freedom of speech. In Denmark you may also call the Holocaust a lie or claim that the moon is made of cheese, however since everyone else also have freedom of speech, then your arguments would probably be pulled apart, before they get any broad consensus in the public opinion... David Irving would never go to jail in Denmark.

Exactly

Free speech in Denmark is not the same as free speech in UK, US, Germany, Austria or whatever.

Nazi organisations are not even illegal here. They may print their magazines and broadcast. They even joined the government election few years ago. In fact their nazi radio broadcast was government sponsored, with some smaller symbolic amounts, for several years. Not because they wanted it, but because the laws are built in a way that no one shall be discriminated and have limited freedom or free speech.

[Deej]

Great debate, lets hear some more views.....

good POV Markham....

[sfera]

let people keep their beliefs it helps them get throught their shit lives

[SquireMD]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

You're obviously not old enough to remember.

http://www.newsoftheodd.com/article1012.html

http://www.instantkarma.com/johnbio3.html

Ok so the Muslims take it further. But the principle is the same, John Lennon has the right to freedom of speech. And many Americans rioted because he exercised that right.

yes, and did you know that the jim crow laws were repealed too?

[G-Rotica]

Opinions should not be against the law. No matter who they offend.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Your still thinking of it as a Westerner.

Imagine the response from the Deep South US if you said a pop band was nearly as important to kids as Jesus Christ.

I think they would not worry about freedom of speech. They would be rioting, bonfires of records, death threats and more if anyone said that about their God.

Being from the south, I can say that a small minority yes, but putting someone in prison for 20 years for saying what he thinks. Thought crimes?? Hmmm. I would think that Austria would just not allow the idiot into the country and let that be the end of it. But now days everyone is a crying little bitch.

[2HousePlague]

Freedomn of Speech and whether or not there's somebody willing to go to jail for socking you in the mouth are 2 different things.

[PixeLs]

Originally Posted by G-Rotica

Opinions should not be against the law. No matter who they offend.

There is no such thing as absolute freedom. Freedom should always be accompanied with responsibility.

[Thumbler]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Your still thinking of it as a Westerner.

Imagine the response from the Deep South US if you said a pop band was nearly as important to kids as Jesus Christ.

That's been said - "The Beatles are more popular than Jesus Christ" - John Lennon

[SmokeyTheBear]

the muslims have it completely backwards anyways.. there is no rule against drawing pictures of mohammed. The rule is not to worship pictures or symbols as god because it a false idol.. the rule doesnt have anything to do with non-muslims , its FOR muslims to KEEP THEM from getting all freaked out over a picture or a symbol.. basically the rule was ade to keep them from doing what they are doing now * freaking out over a picture/symbol instead of realising that god is not reflected in the drawings

[je_rome]

because freedom of speech, or any freedom for that matter, is not without limit.

[skinnay]

what about a woman's religion?

[chodadog]

The fucked up thing about this case is that David Irving has never denied the holocaust happened. I've actually read some of his stuff. It's pretty off the wall and I am unconvinced by his opinion. However, does suggesting that 3 million jews were killed by the nazis instead of 6 million amount to denying the holocaust occurred? He disputes certain facts regarding the holocaust. That's all. He may very well be a racist. That could be his motivation for his research. But i've never read a single thing where he's said the holocaust did not happen.

People seem to get the idea that if you suggest 6 million wasn't the correct number, then you're somehow being apologetic towards the nazis, like killing 3 million isn't as bad as killing 6 million.