when are you considered an alcoholic? - GoFuckYourself.com

nico-t · 02-15-2006, 06:53 PM

in theory? how many beers/whiskey/etc every day?

LauraLee · 02-15-2006, 06:56 PM

You are considered an alcoholic when you go to meetings.
You are considered a drunk if you don't.

Seriously though, not sure there would be a 'set' amount.. maybe more the regularity, the reasons and a heap of other variables to consider.

3M TA3 · 02-15-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LauraLee

You are considered an alcoholic when you go to meetings.

meetings are for quiters - quiters never win

i think it's a state of mind, not an amount of sauce. and it's not just alcohol, it's anything that is a device

polish_aristocrat · 02-15-2006, 07:00 PM

when you drink alone while posting on GFY at least once per week

Lycanthrope · 02-15-2006, 07:00 PM

The amount consumed has little to do with what makes one an alcoholic. There are alcoholics out there that have never touched a drink, and there are people that party way too much and get drunk all the time, yet aren't alcoholics.

Ultimately, it is a personal diagnosis and when drinking's problems out weight its "benefits", it is probably time to quit before life gets worse.

sumphatpimp · 02-15-2006, 07:02 PM

is the bottle half full?
or half empty?
if you are obcessed with always having enough on hand,
well you know what that means!

Sly · 02-15-2006, 07:03 PM

I think real addiction is one of the main factors.

Grapesoda · 02-15-2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LauraLee

You are considered an alcoholic when you go to meetings.
You are considered a drunk if you don't.

intreresting answer . . .

nico-t · 02-15-2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polish_aristocrat

when you drink alone while posting on GFY at least once per week

Grapesoda · 02-15-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumphatpimp

is the bottle half full?
or half empty?

the bottle is just too big

nico-t · 02-15-2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

The amount consumed has little to do with what makes one an alcoholic. There are alcoholics out there that have never touched a drink, and there are people that party way too much and get drunk all the time, yet aren't alcoholics.

Ultimately, it is a personal diagnosis and when drinking's problems out weight its "benefits", it is probably time to quit before life gets worse.

this is a pretty good point. Luckily im right now in the "drink much but feels great" category

Spunky · 02-15-2006, 07:09 PM

woj · 02-15-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunky

:1orgluagh

XMaster · 02-15-2006, 07:15 PM

2 drinks per day ...every days and you are !

The Captain · 02-15-2006, 07:21 PM

I think its when you dont feel right unless you have had a drink..

Fresh · 02-15-2006, 07:22 PM

when you're walking down the street and people are yelling "fuckin drunk!"

dij · 02-15-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polish_aristocrat

when you drink alone while posting on GFY at least once per week

oh no, I am doomed

Jarmusch · 02-15-2006, 07:43 PM

I guess when you can't go for more than one day without drinking or thinking about drinking, you can be considered a full-blown alcoholic.

BillPMB · 02-15-2006, 07:45 PM

Take the M.A.S.T. (Michigin Alcohol Screening Test) and be HONEST

http://www.suavalicious.com/test_mast.htm

Have fun kids.

nico-t · 02-15-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillPMB

Take the M.A.S.T. (Michigin Alcohol Screening Test) and be HONEST

http://www.suavalicious.com/test_mast.htm

Have fun kids.

10 - Alcoholism. Contact your doctor for help. You've got problems, find out your S.A.Q.®

yea right lol..

BillPMB · 02-15-2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

One of the most widely used measures for assessing alcohol abuse. The M.A.S.T. is a 25-item questionnaire designed to provide a rapid and effective screening for lifetime alcohol-related problems and alcoholism. The MAST, which can be used in either a paper-and-pencil or interview format, has been productively used in a variety of settings with varied populations.

It's widely used and very accurate.

RenzoAWM · 02-15-2006, 08:19 PM

Used to drink a bottle of scotch each day, found out that I was alcoholic, nowadays I just smoke pot each day

way better

dissipate · 02-15-2006, 08:21 PM

A beer or a glass of wine with dinner, then perhaps one more in the evening then you're ok. But if you start drinking on weekdays before 5 and/or have more than 2/3 every single day, you're pushing it.

fuzebox · 02-15-2006, 08:34 PM

The first sign is denial.

And I'm an alcoholic.

Therefore I can't be one, an alcoholic would never admit to being one.

mikeyddddd · 02-15-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzebox

The first sign is denial.

I thought the first sign was accidentally shooting your friends.

johnnyhey · 02-15-2006, 08:48 PM

try this for starters:
1. Do you lose time from work due to your drinking?

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people?

4. Is drinking affecting your reputation?

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?

6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of your drinking?

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare?

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking?

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily?

11. Do you want a drink the next morning?

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business?

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles?

16. Do you drink alone?

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of your drinking?

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking?

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?

20. Have you ever been in a hospital or institution on account of drinking?

bdld · 02-15-2006, 08:48 PM

i'd say when you're drinking on a weekly basis.

joefriday · 02-15-2006, 08:54 PM

An alcoholic is someone who has a drink on hand or near by at all times, and hides in side other bottles to disguise it.They dont nesseceraly get totally mothered they are just drunk all the time , they usually have breath mints or I knew someone who had a tube of tooth paste in her hand bag at all times.

bogo · 02-15-2006, 09:38 PM

if you drink before 12:00 pm in the mornimg,then you need help...i have few drinks everyday around 3-4:00 pm...

Spunky · 02-15-2006, 09:39 PM

So Vodka with my Frootloops is a bad thing?

GTS Mark · 02-15-2006, 11:03 PM

High risk for problem drinking. Addiction to alcohol is likely. Contact your doctor for help.

LOL!

DH

MrJazz99 · 02-15-2006, 11:17 PM

Alcoholic or not, alcohol is just at trade off for something else - man have addiction in nature, some in alcohol, some in drugs, some in sex abuse, some in cookin, some in gambling, some in posting at GFY.....get rid of one habit just introduces a new, so why try ?

TheSenator · 02-15-2006, 11:51 PM

I get really fucked up while playing MADDEN 2006. I start usually around12:00am and end at 3:00am sometimes twice a week. I can kill a gallon of cheap red wine in three hours.

reed_4 · 02-16-2006, 04:09 AM

I think if you can't pass a day without having a drink that would consider you to be an alcoholic.

Odin · 02-16-2006, 04:33 AM

I don't know, but I certainly think people laugh alcohol off way to much. If you enjoy it every now and than and there are no side effects than cool. If you drink it often and ignore all the problems caused by it (family, health, friends, fights, etc) than I think it is a good starting point at establishing you are an alcoholic.

everestcash · 02-16-2006, 06:23 AM

when you can't say NO to a drink

digifan · 02-16-2006, 06:33 AM

When you are so addicted that you get drunk from one glass of alcohol.. said but saw that. Losing the tolerance...

Nicky · 02-16-2006, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyhey

try this for starters:
1. Do you lose time from work due to your drinking?

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people?

4. Is drinking affecting your reputation?

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?

6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of your drinking?

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare?

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking?

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily?

11. Do you want a drink the next morning?

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business?

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles?

16. Do you drink alone?

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of your drinking?

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking?

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?

20. Have you ever been in a hospital or institution on account of drinking?

I only answered yes on 1 of those questions and that was nr.6, what can I say i spend all my money at the bar

nico-t · 02-16-2006, 07:17 AM

i never got into serious problems with drinking like the Q's about you family/spouse, friends etc. I drink every day a few, whether beer or whiskey/bacardi coke or something.. every weekend i get rather fucked up but i can control that shit.
Sometimes i cant remember some parts of the night before but im never sick or puking or whatever

Antonio · 02-16-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

There are alcoholics out there that have never touched a drink......

if you say so

Can you stay without a drink for a week, and feel perfectly ok? How about a month? Well, then youhave nothing to worry about.

DutchTeenCash · 02-16-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t

i never got into serious problems with drinking like the Q's about you family/spouse, friends etc. I drink every day a few, whether beer or whiskey/bacardi coke or something.. every weekend i get rather fucked up but i can control that shit.
Sometimes i cant remember some parts of the night before but im never sick or puking or whatever

believe me that last line indicates youve got a problem, wether other ppl think its cool or not not remembering shit means trouble imho.

plus a few whiskeys a day dont just mean alcolhol. They mean health issues too after a while. And yes I drink too, maybe one glass per 1-2 weeks red wine. And if I dont its np at all.

nico-t · 02-16-2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkx

believe me that last line indicates youve got a problem, wether other ppl think its cool or not not remembering shit means trouble imho.

yea i never had that before a few months ago or so, only recently ive had it a few times with going out. Im pretty certain its related to the absinthe i started drinking recently with my friends before we go out. I love the stuff but its pretty hard shit - gonna tone it down a bit.

nico-t · 02-16-2006, 07:57 AM

o and

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkx

plus a few whiskeys a day dont just mean alcolhol. They mean health issues too after a while. And yes I drink too, maybe one glass per 1-2 weeks red wine. And if I dont its np at all.

i also have my non alcohol days, but the average in a working week is 1 or 2 alcoholic drinks per day.. its not that i need alcohol bad or something lol

Downtime · 02-16-2006, 07:58 AM

that last question does say it all.

have you hurt anyone because of drinking?

Teodora · 02-16-2006, 08:04 AM

when u wake up in the morning and u start with a spirit or any kind of alcohol ..and u do it every day... and u don't need company for it.

SilentKnight · 02-16-2006, 08:48 AM

A sure sign that you may be an alcoholic is when you starting questioning, "When am I considered an alcoholic?". Its shows that you've mentally admitted to yourself that you drink a lot and are now turning to others for their opinions with the hopes that they'll say you're not an alcoholic.

As a recovering alcoholic myself, I've been there/done that. Back in the day I would've answered yes to nearly every question that johnnyhey posted above (a good checklist, BTW).

As others have said, its not the amount you drink. Its the effect it has on your lifestyle. Step one is recognizing this and admitting it to yourself. Step two is proactively doing something about it.

nico-t · 02-16-2006, 08:50 AM

^^ it was a question in general

karlm · 02-16-2006, 08:51 AM

High risk for problem drinking. Addiction to alcohol is likely. Contact your doctor for help.

LOL

DutchTeenCash · 02-16-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t

o and

i also have my non alcohol days, but the average in a working week is 1 or 2 alcoholic drinks per day.. its not that i need alcohol bad or something lol

ok well if you dont need it then try a week sober see what happens

Quick Buck · 02-16-2006, 08:55 AM

to some point i see this being helpful because it makes you think about the questions... but the only positive scores i answered on behalf of my wife who almost never drinks, is a vegan vegetarian, fitness trainer buddhist:

these are the questions that caused my wife to be labeled as a "very high risk problem drinker"

Quote:

Have you ever awakened the morning after some drinking the night before and found that you could not remember part of the evening before?

Can you honestly tell me that MOST people at some poitn in their lives havent had a wild night out where some portion of the evening is a blur? (21st birthday, a wild frat party, bachelorette party)

Quote:

Have you gotten into fights while drinking?

Who the hell hasn't drunk dialed, said something stupid, or just misinterpreted something and ended up getting in a tiff if they went out drinking? My wife thought I was flirting with the bartender one night when we went out with another couple. She got pissed at me and wouldnt talk to me til the next morning. She's really racking up the points.

Quote:

Do you ever drink before noon?

YES! It's called a Mimosa or a Bloody Mary, every grown up has them with brunch on occassion. It's the word "ever" that's making these questions pointless.

and her score? Drumroll.. 4

Quote:

High risk for problem drinking. Addiction to alcohol is likely. Contact your doctor for help.

Sorry, I don't think things like alcoholism can be diagnosed by a 20 question true/false questionairre filled with questions like "have you ever had a drink before noon"

02-15-2006, 06:53 PM	#1
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	when are you considered an alcoholic? in theory? how many beers/whiskey/etc every day?

02-15-2006, 06:56 PM	#2
LauraLee Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: (Still) One Touch Cockie Posts: 3,821	You are considered an alcoholic when you go to meetings. You are considered a drunk if you don't. Seriously though, not sure there would be a 'set' amount.. maybe more the regularity, the reasons and a heap of other variables to consider. __________________ Priority Payout skype lauralee.bunker LL's Email

02-15-2006, 07:00 PM	#4
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	when you drink alone while posting on GFY at least once per week __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

02-15-2006, 07:00 PM	#5
Lycanthrope Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,517	The amount consumed has little to do with what makes one an alcoholic. There are alcoholics out there that have never touched a drink, and there are people that party way too much and get drunk all the time, yet aren't alcoholics. Ultimately, it is a personal diagnosis and when drinking's problems out weight its "benefits", it is probably time to quit before life gets worse. __________________

02-15-2006, 07:02 PM	#6
sumphatpimp Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 5,235	is the bottle half full? or half empty? if you are obcessed with always having enough on hand, well you know what that means! Last edited by sumphatpimp; 02-15-2006 at 07:05 PM..

02-15-2006, 07:03 PM	#7
Sly Let's do some business! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 31,359	I think real addiction is one of the main factors. __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted Windows VPS now available Great for TSS, Nifty Stats, remote work, virtual assistants, etc. Click here for more details.

02-15-2006, 07:09 PM	#12
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,961	__________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

02-15-2006, 07:15 PM	#14
XMaster Poker Player Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,945	2 drinks per day ...every days and you are ! __________________ iStripper 50% revshare since 1998 You missed out on Bitcoin! Don't miss DOLZ.

02-15-2006, 07:21 PM	#15
The Captain Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,558	I think its when you dont feel right unless you have had a drink.. __________________ ←Make Your Money Go \| Make Your Traffic Go→

02-15-2006, 07:22 PM	#16
Fresh TubeClicks.com - First Tube Affiliate Program Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: LA Posts: 4,920	when you're walking down the street and people are yelling "fuckin drunk!" __________________ Promote ONE Legal Tube Site, Collect Checks from 19 Sponsors Fresh Dave \| Email: [email protected] \| ICQ: 317160390

02-15-2006, 07:43 PM	#18
Jarmusch Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 12,479	I guess when you can't go for more than one day without drinking or thinking about drinking, you can be considered a full-blown alcoholic.

02-15-2006, 07:45 PM	#19
BillPMB Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 147	Take the M.A.S.T. (Michigin Alcohol Screening Test) and be HONEST http://www.suavalicious.com/test_mast.htm Have fun kids. __________________ PornMegabucks

02-15-2006, 08:19 PM	#22
RenzoAWM Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 63	Used to drink a bottle of scotch each day, found out that I was alcoholic, nowadays I just smoke pot each day way better

02-15-2006, 08:21 PM	#23
dissipate The Dirty Frenchman Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 8,904	A beer or a glass of wine with dinner, then perhaps one more in the evening then you're ok. But if you start drinking on weekdays before 5 and/or have more than 2/3 every single day, you're pushing it.

02-15-2006, 08:34 PM	#24
fuzebox making it rain Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 22,227	The first sign is denial. And I'm an alcoholic. Therefore I can't be one, an alcoholic would never admit to being one.

02-15-2006, 08:48 PM	#26
johnnyhey Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Posts: 1,172	try this for starters: 1. Do you lose time from work due to your drinking? 2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy? 3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people? 4. Is drinking affecting your reputation? 5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking? 6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of your drinking? 7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking? 8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare? 9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking? 10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily? 11. Do you want a drink the next morning? 12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? 13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking? 14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business? 15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles? 16. Do you drink alone? 17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of your drinking? 18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking? 19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence? 20. Have you ever been in a hospital or institution on account of drinking? __________________ CandyDreams.com shooter for hire info[at]candydreams.com ICQ:96563638 AIM: johnnyhey

02-15-2006, 08:48 PM	#27
bdld $100,000 Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11,452	i'd say when you're drinking on a weekly basis.

02-15-2006, 08:54 PM	#28
joefriday Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,090	An alcoholic is someone who has a drink on hand or near by at all times, and hides in side other bottles to disguise it.They dont nesseceraly get totally mothered they are just drunk all the time , they usually have breath mints or I knew someone who had a tube of tooth paste in her hand bag at all times. __________________ Start making money today with Cashburners.com Converts Porn/Tube traffic like crazy - 1:200 CR. Sign up today and grab your $50 signup bonus. Over 100 products to promote including Penis Enlargement pills, Herbal Viagra pills and loads of Party Pills + many others.

02-15-2006, 09:38 PM	#29
bogo Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,982	if you drink before 12:00 pm in the mornimg,then you need help...i have few drinks everyday around 3-4:00 pm...

02-15-2006, 09:39 PM	#30
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,961	So Vodka with my Frootloops is a bad thing? __________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

02-15-2006, 11:03 PM	#31
GTS Mark Vrume Mark Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 20,912	High risk for problem drinking. Addiction to alcohol is likely. Contact your doctor for help. LOL! DH

02-15-2006, 11:17 PM	#32
MrJazz99 Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 362	Alcoholic or not, alcohol is just at trade off for something else - man have addiction in nature, some in alcohol, some in drugs, some in sex abuse, some in cookin, some in gambling, some in posting at GFY.....get rid of one habit just introduces a new, so why try ? __________________ www.123content.com - HQ Scandinavian Adult Content [email protected] ICQ: 258-058-968

02-15-2006, 11:51 PM	#33
TheSenator Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 13,340	I get really fucked up while playing MADDEN 2006. I start usually around12:00am and end at 3:00am sometimes twice a week. I can kill a gallon of cheap red wine in three hours. __________________ ISeekGirls.com since 2005

02-16-2006, 04:09 AM	#34
reed_4 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 9,640	I think if you can't pass a day without having a drink that would consider you to be an alcoholic. __________________

02-16-2006, 04:33 AM	#35
Odin Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: au Posts: 2,545	I don't know, but I certainly think people laugh alcohol off way to much. If you enjoy it every now and than and there are no side effects than cool. If you drink it often and ignore all the problems caused by it (family, health, friends, fights, etc) than I think it is a good starting point at establishing you are an alcoholic.

02-16-2006, 06:23 AM	#36
everestcash Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 2,194	when you can't say NO to a drink __________________ Got solo girls/teen traffic? Promote our exclusive solo girl sites and boost your income!

02-16-2006, 06:33 AM	#37
digifan The Profiler Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ICQ 76281726 and I'm female Posts: 14,618	When you are so addicted that you get drunk from one glass of alcohol.. said but saw that. Losing the tolerance... __________________ [email protected] Webair Rocks

02-16-2006, 07:17 AM	#39
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	i never got into serious problems with drinking like the Q's about you family/spouse, friends etc. I drink every day a few, whether beer or whiskey/bacardi coke or something.. every weekend i get rather fucked up but i can control that shit. Sometimes i cant remember some parts of the night before but im never sick or puking or whatever

02-16-2006, 07:58 AM	#44
Downtime Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: America. Posts: 7,320	that last question does say it all. have you hurt anyone because of drinking? __________________ #27024067

02-16-2006, 08:04 AM	#45
Teodora Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 471	when u wake up in the morning and u start with a spirit or any kind of alcohol ..and u do it every day... and u don't need company for it. __________________ LIVE SEX AWARDS MAY 24-25, 2006 THE LARGEST WEBMASTER AND PERFORMER PRIZES EVER AWARDED - $100,000.00

02-16-2006, 08:48 AM	#46
SilentKnight Megan Fox's fluffer Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: shooting pool in Elysium Posts: 24,818	A sure sign that you may be an alcoholic is when you starting questioning, "When am I considered an alcoholic?". Its shows that you've mentally admitted to yourself that you drink a lot and are now turning to others for their opinions with the hopes that they'll say you're not an alcoholic. As a recovering alcoholic myself, I've been there/done that. Back in the day I would've answered yes to nearly every question that johnnyhey posted above (a good checklist, BTW). As others have said, its not the amount you drink. Its the effect it has on your lifestyle. Step one is recognizing this and admitting it to yourself. Step two is proactively doing something about it.

02-16-2006, 08:50 AM	#47
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	^^ it was a question in general

02-16-2006, 08:51 AM	#48
karlm Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: UK Posts: 4,194	High risk for problem drinking. Addiction to alcohol is likely. Contact your doctor for help. LOL __________________ ICQ 584665926