Theo

International PEN greets with shock the news that the world-famous Turkish writer, Orhan Pamuk, will be brought before an Istanbul court on 16 December 2005 and that he faces up to three years in prison for a comment published in a Swiss newspaper earlier this year.


The charges stem from an interview given by Pamuk to the Swiss newspaper "Das Magazin" on 6 February in which he is quoted as saying that "thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it." Pamuk was referring to the killings by Ottoman Empire forces of thousands of Armenians in 1915-1917. Turkey does not contest the deaths, but denies that it could be called a "genocide". His reference to "30,000" Kurdish deaths refers to those killed since 1984 in the conflict between Turkish forces and Kurdish separatists. Debate on these issues have been stifled by stringent laws, some leading to lengthy lawsuits, fines and in some cases prison terms.

http://www.ifex.org/en/content/view/full/68998/

PixeLs

..and that's what he got for being bold in saying what is most likely to be the truth--that's is so frustratinG.

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DTK

Genocide is such an ugly word

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Odin88

hey they arrest you in Germany if you say that less than 11 million people where executed by the Nazi's. Actually Canada is deporting a guy to face prosecution for his crimes of speech. http://www.zundelsite.org/

je_rome

In this day in age it is still surprising how there is not much freedom in some regions.

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MaDalton

the law in germany is there for a very good reason and you should know that. but your choice of nickname and the fact, that this law interests you makes me believe you're a nazi anyways. and btw, where's your other nazi friend, mr. monkey, haven't seen him for a while...

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Odin88

And the law in Turkey is there for a very good reason also you know. You can't just go around accusing a whole nation of genocide. I don't deny that Germany executed many civilians in gas chambers, millions, and I find it disgusting and wrong. But you know, the fact is any law against freedom of speech is there for a very good reason. What is the reason for Germany's? To prevent people from denying that the Holocaust happened and pissing off Jewish people, etc and causing tension, the law in Turkey works the exact same way, only on the flipside.

You see in America you could say either, and that would be that. People would judge you on what you said, and its merits, not the law judging you on its legality. That is how freedom of speech works, it protects the speech that people don't like, not the stuff they do. You know they could of banned all Marxist speech as well at one stage and many of today's university lecturer's would be in jail, and they could of justified it to almost everyone, believe me, just as the justify these laws in Germany and Turkey. Internet censorship can also very well be justified. Children shouldn't be accessing adult content, and adult sites may well not be meeting their duty of care. You see, a prostitute can't stand outside of a school and look for clients, but a google search on an innocent term may well land a kid on a porn page.

And monkey is still around, he doesn't post much though.

Orga

I wonder how Turkey would like to be part of EU after that?

Odin88

Why not, they throw people in jail in England, Norway, etc for criticising Islam. What is the difference? Apparently if you say something about a belief system which all these people subscribe to you are discriminating against them? No shit eh. It's like saying something bad about a political party, IT IS WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Like I said, all of these laws are justifiable though (in Turkey, in England, in Germany), it's just a matter of where do you want to draw the line when it comes to this slippery slope of censorship. People whinge and moan about the US not being free, but the fact is despite its drawbacks the US is still the most free nation on the planet.

MaDalton

hahaha - you mean the same USA where they show live shows with a delay in case a nipple slips or someone says "fuck"?

give me a break...

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Orga

Agreed

Odin88

Ok, please inform me why that is encroaching on freedom of speech? If someone says fuck they bleep it out sure, but don't they do the same in almost every other country? Perhaps they don't delay telecasts because they haven't had problems before, but I know for a fact that there are people sitting there ready to hit the censor if someone says something out inappropriate for the timeslot. Not that I fully support this idea, but really, it is quite insignificant.

And in any event, what is more significant? Throwing people in jail for criticising a belief system, or bleeping out fuck if it appears on TV? Also I should point out that I naturally don't accredit any of the freedom in America to president bush or any of the other recent fuckwits before him, but instead to those great men who founded the nation.

(btw I see Germany in your location bar, mind informing me about the internet pornography laws there? They exist for a valid and very debatable reason to you know!)

MaDalton

nah, sorry, i move to a new apartment and have to put everything into boxes today... no time to debate...

but the internet laws for porn in germany are surely fucked up - i'd never deny that

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BRISK

No

......

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Tex Willer

Lots of Turks and Armenians on this board. Reserving sig spot

Tex Willer

sig spot #2 reserved and for sale

Jensen

care to elaborate that with norway?

Odin88

They do it here, and I find it hard to believe they don't do it there. You are telling me if something is showing at 5pm on a news show and someone swears (and it is pre-recorded) they don't bleep it out? It is the exact thing, except they are attempting to manage it live. There is nothing particularly extreme about it. Most countries have codes of standards that don't allow such things as nipple slips, and swearing on TV before a set time, or without a set warning attached. How do you suggest they manage these things? Not have live TV? Ignore the standards which have been developed because it is live TV? Perhaps there is some other solution, but as I see it the solution in the US certainly isn't that extreme. Do you think it is wrong to censor these things from TV at certain times?

You know I can't elaborate on exact cases I will be honest with you. But the guy I partner with in business is from Norway and he has filled me on alot of the laws. I would hunt them down for you from what he had showed me, but I do not speak your language so it would be difficult for me. But you surely are aware of the anti-racism/etc laws in your country, they are quite similar to those in Australia I believe. Anything that can essentially be found 'offensive' to these groups (including religions such as Islam) about their beliefs is essentially illegal. A number of Christian organisations where infilitrated by muslims over here and they attended their meetings (the groups weren't extreme) and some of the stuff they preeched offended these people so now they are facing charges. It is fucking ridiculous.

phonesex

The Turkish Goverment should wake up and stop bullshitting on what happened. The real truth comes from the people. Talk to the Armenian people especially those who were kids or the stories their parents told them. As far as Germany goes. I would be embarrased to have parents or grandparents or greatgrandparents who participated in the Nazi regime. Just imagine a family member being a part of such destruction and crimes against people.

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phonesex

it makes me fucking sick!

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BRISK

In Europe, there is a regular commercial on TV for mobile phone ringtones that says "pick that mother-fucker up!" I've seen it on TV at like 1pm. Then of course there's the frontal male nudity and standard 5 or 6 porn shows at night.

In America, cleavage is censored on TV.

I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't be allowed, I'm just giving examples of what I've seen.

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Odin88

You know I feel I have to make a statement before I say what I say, but simply put I think Nazism was the worst thing to ever happen to Western Society (that and Communism - particularly Stalinism) and I find the human rights abuses disgusting under those regimes.

That said, I will say that my Grandfather fought for Germany in Stalingrad during the war, and luckily survived. He was not an early member of the Nazi party and was pretty apolitical his whole life. Numerous relatives of mine (as in distant cousins etc) also died in war for Germany during WWII. It is impossible to judge these individuals anymore so than you can judge American troops. Both people where essentially doing the same thing, fighting in a battle they would prefer not to, simply for their own survival, and the men beside them. I just finished watching Band of Brothers actually and something struck me about what one of the American veteran's said in an interview included in the documentary. I don't have the exact words, but this is essentially what he said:

We went in there thinking the Germans where the most evil people in the world. But we quickly realised that it was not the German soldiers, per se. Perhaps it was the SS, they where the ones that could kill their own people, and kill other innocents, but not the regular men. They where just children, we all where, and they where just doing what they where supposed to do, as we where. I don't know but some of them might of got along real well with me. They might of liked to hunt, they might of liked to fish, who knows, under different circumstances we might of been best of friends.

You can not judge these people, if you had grown up at the same time it is HIGHLY unlikely you would of not been fighting for Hitler to, and perhaps believing in what he said.

To my knowledge payTV isn't censored like that in the US. It is the same here. Free to air TV is quite censored, but at 1pm on pay TV you will see full frontal nudity as well. That is my understanding of it.

wjxxx

Turkey never will be part of EU period

Lev

Direct Quote from the movie "Midnight Express" about Turks and Turkey:

"It is funny how a nation of pigs do not eat pigs"

Fuck Turkey and I hope it never gets accepted to the EU. EU is reserved for civilized countries!

And I recommend watching the movie, really good:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...103696-2739043

Fresh

FACT: Turkey murdered millions of Armenians for land and called it a war. Till today they call it a war. The smarter few know this isnt true, and Turkey will do what it takes to shut em up.

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power182

Was that broadcast TV or cable? Big difference between the two in the states. In the US the government regulates what goes over the airwaves so they have standards for public TV. But on cable it?s the choice of the owners and their responsibility to their advertisers that makes the rules. Yes I have seen softcore porn on regular cable TV, but never on public TV.

phonesex

America should drop a nuke on Turkey

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