codecrawler

Sorry for the URL to my board but this is important I think!

http://www.action-porn.com/ubb2/Forum1/HTML/001407.html

Are we getting only 30% or so from the sales?

Kimmy? can you comment?

CC

Sleepy

CCBill uses IP tracking too so it doesnt apply.
Ibill and others use only cookies so bark up that tree.

Kimmykim

Sure I'll comment.

Our cookies are compliant with IE6 default settings.

Where anyone comes up with a figure like 30% from is beyond me to be honest. If we saw that the average site owner with a reseller program was only paying resellers on an average of 30% of his incoming sales, we'd look at just where the traffic was coming from for other reasons as well.

We offer more than one type of tracking, depending on the coding, and quite frankly, using more than the standard doesn't really increase joins. Our new join system, which is in beta right now, will also add increased functionality and tracking for the site owners, and we are working on an update of the reseller programming (internally) that will enable resellers to track where their joins are coming from -- something you've all asked for and we've just not been able to implement without finishing the new join setup first.

Just one more case of someone playing Chicken Little instead of analyzing their own traffic's weaknesses and reacting accordingly.

You guys know if you have questions about anything in our system or how we do things, all you have to do is ask. I'm not very technical but I do know where to find the answers

RockDaddy

What is the acceptable amount of sales to not get paid for?? 30% or 60%, does not matter.

It is a real problem and tends to be down played by sponsors and reps with terms like "chicken little" etc..

But an email to CCBill support dept. brought this reply...

=== Email response 1 ==

Dear Webmaster,

While I'm not sure what the exact percentage of surfers have cookies enabled, we do realize that this could be an issue and we also offer a way for the webmaster to pass along the affiliate code into the signup page through a hidden code. Feel free to contact our support department if you would like assistance on how to do this.

=== end first email response ==

=== Email resonse 2 ==

Sure,

Here's the information that I have from Jeff T ([email protected])...

The webmaster can pass along the affiliate code into the signup page he would capture it like this

{INPUT TYPE="hidden" NAME="ccbill_referer" VALUE="%%ccbill_referer%%"}

he would insert the code into the signup page.

also he would have to edit the form before that to pass in the referral number

Feel free to contact Jeff directly if you have any further questions on this or if this doesn't make sense.

Thanks!
Alex

== end of response 2 ==

Which I might add, was a very quick and professional response, the point remains that if you look at your tour pages and the join page of sponsors using CCBill, and you do not see the code supplied by the CCBill support dept to pass the referrer code, THEN YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR THAT SALE if the surfer does not have cookies enabled.

Is that incorrect?? And how so if it is??

The test that was performed that came up with the 30% cookies enabled is here
http://www.tgswupdates.com/cgi-bin/i...rum=3&topic=75

While I'm sure it's not 100% accurate, if it is only 50% accurate, then it is still a concern. The fact that there is a method to track referral codes even without cookies, as supplied by CCBill above, and CCBill knew this, then the sponsors should have know this also. And if they didn't, then why didn't they??



Sorry, but if you don't take making money and getting paid serious, then what DO you take serious. Webmasters having legitimate concerns regarding their income which they use to support their families, should not be taken so lightly by sponsors and reps from billing companies. Kind of insulting.


RD

heymatty

I will be most pleased when ccbill have some url tracking built into their stats. Its the only thing I find missing.

Everything else is great.

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codecrawler

Sleepy,

That wasn't meant to bicth at CCBill or Kimmy, but she is the only one in here I know that knows CC processors through and through, so if anybody's opinion on this is credible it's hers I think ;)

Kimmy, thanks for the responce.

Fast, correct and to teh point as always

CC

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Kimmykim

RockDaddy, it is indeed possible to pass our coding in this way, as long as you are aware that if you are going to use it, you need to pass in ccbill_referer *everytime* someone is sent to the signup form.


Cookies have been, and will remain, our primary method of tracking both surfers and resellers. The bottom line is that, I will repeat, our tracking is compatible with IE6 *default* settings, the same way it's been compatible with all previous versions. We have other checks in our system, not just for tracking who sent who a hit but also for fraud, etc. so we are aware of what the average surfer in our system is doing. In our CCBucks system, we utilize analytical HARDWARE apps that track every possible thing about a surfer and I also use that to come to my conclusions.

A surfer who turns off his cookies is rare, of that I can assure you. Where this mysterious "only 30%" figure comes from is questionable methodology to me at best.

Many of the larger sponsors that use our program either use their own software exclusively or use it in conjunction with ours, further insuring that people are indeed being paid for sales they make.

As for insulting anyone? No, that's not the case here. I was asked for a comment and I gave it. This is not the first time I've been asked, and it probably won't be the last. And until my programmers tell me that they have a different answer for me, I'll be repeating the answer I've given.

codecrawler

Ehm Unix dude here with a strong allergy for Micky$oft.


THis is what I hear about MSie 6

Isn't it so that in the default settings of that browser it won't let you set cookies?

And if that is the case doesn't that have an impact on tracking?

Like I said I stay away as far as I can from Gates products.(to bad I can't avois it 100% *LOL*)

But to me that sounds like default Msie 6 settings means cookies are off?

CC

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Sleepy

No, I know.. but I had my programmer put their system to the test with them on the phone. It tracks cookies and watches the I.P. number of the surfer. The only thing it could miss is an AOL proxy surfer with cookies off and very random IP# changes. Look, your a code head so you know that no program is going to be flawless for that job. As far as actual tracking is concerned your attacking the one company that does it better than most. The numbers you posted are way off. We track our signups with our own software and the numbers are damn close with ccbill. If my program and ccbill's numbers are within 2% you know its working. With Ibill we sometimes had 40% differences !

railz

Granted, no system is 100% perfect and as fast as microsoft dish it out, something somewhere is broken.

Saying that, however I do lend some credibility to the tests and I intend to run my own as well using the code given in that post. If nothing else, it might persuade the paranoid nocookie surfers to turn them back on

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swedguy

I have done some tracking for the last couple of months. My main thing was not to track how many that had cookies turned off or on, I just got it as a bonus.
I found out that about 10% has their cookies turned off (this is on MY traffic, so no bitching that I'm totally wrong ).
The traffic is mainly coming from linklists. I would say about 70% LL, 20% SE and 10% TGP.

Hi btw

codecrawler

Sleepy,

I'm not trying to attack any company about this. This got posted on my board, I read it, and thought let's ask someone that can know about it. I'm sure Kimmy has wayyy more info on this then anybody else I know.

It's not directed at any company in particular(at least not my posts I can't speak for anybody else offcourse )

Like you said I'm a codehead and I absolutely agree with you that nothing is ever 100% but on the other hand I never looked or worked at anything that had to do with CC processing so I thought I'd ask an opinion ;)

And besides let's face it, if CCBill has that real good tracking soft/hardware in place this is damn good advertising for them too and makes them look even better

Bottomline I'm asking for info not attacking anybody.

Cheers!
CC

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TheFLY

This 30% number is not bullshit... I've heard this same estimate from my friend Phil who has done his own independent testing -- he's got custom software showing that 30% of signups aren't tracked with cookies... I'll forward him this thread and maybe he can elaborate on how he came up with the 30% number...

TheFLY

So let me get this straight...

IBill only tracks signups by cookies?!??? No wonder they suck ass.

CCBill tracks IP's and cookies by default, but the paysite has the option to turn off IP tracking? I'm confused.

It would be nice of CCBill to explain the signup process thoroughly ;) From the email above -- it sounds as though CCBill assigns each surfer a ccbill_referer ID# when entering CCBill's cgi... then this ID# is passed via invisible form elements to the join page... then this ID is compared w/ ID information in CCBill's database...? Am I correct? How long does it take for these referrer ID's to expire?

Is the IP# recorded apart from "ccbill_referer" ?

Anyway it sounds like CCBill is doing a good job, but I'm curious about IBill, Jettis, and the others...

TheFLY

I'm thinking it is probably a good idea anyway to send all non-cookie traffic away from sponsors... this would solve the problem entirely...

you could do this with a simple redirect script...

set a cookie upon entering your site...
<img src="./cgi-bin/setcookie.cgi">

then...
<a href="yourdomain.com/cgi-bin/cookiedetect?sponsor=blah">

Click through all the cookie'd surfers --
send all non-cookie surfers to socalsweets.com/models.html

I'm wondering if AmateurPages ClickPic program counts non-cookie surfers through CTC... ???

TheFLY

Ok, MSIE 6 does not allow 3rd party cookies by default... so my previous solution will not work...

We do the following on our (free) sites...

Set cookie on 3rd party (different domain) via image src cgi --
set cookie with IP info and javascript referrer info.

Upon sponsor cgi-redirect -- read the cookie (active cookie), test the IP again to see if it matches (consistent IP), test for valid referrer (functional javascript)... I'm pretty sure this redirect script will need to be on the 3rd party domain also... ONLY send traffic to sponsor if ALL tests pass... otherwise send the traffic someplace useful.

If someone was smart -- they could offer this service free -- provide webmasters with sponsor-exit stats (%'s of cookies, %'s of valid referrers, %'s of matching IP's, etc...) -- and make money off banners on the stats pages, etc... I'd probably code my own script unless I trusted the programmer... ;)

Call it sponsor-exits.com -- give me a good link for coming up with the idea ;)

RockDaddy

Sorry Kimmy if I came across wrong!

but...



Look at how many of these Internet Eraser type programs have been sold. The reason there is such a market for them is because they are surfing for porn on the family/business/friends computer.

When I first started in 96, the first thing I did was disable all cookies as do almost all of my friends who have wives or girlfriends.

Because as a newbie, we don't know what information is being tracked and I still remember that sinking feeling the first time I found the cookie file. haha. Especially with all of the consoles that pop up and drop a cookie with some pretty terrible names. Cookies got turned off real fast

Just saying I don't think it's as rare as you think. I know almost noone with their cookies enabled. Look at the number of people who have actually taken the time to turn off their java.


Since CCBill also uses IP tracking, I wonder why the support dept didn't just say that instead of supplying the code above.

AND... this is not an attack against CCBill per say. I like CCBill and use a lot of sponsors that use them. I usually choose CCBill when the sponsor offers more than one processer.


RD

Kimmykim

RD-- I don't think it's an attack on CCBill, so don't worry about that ;)


refer id is the reseller, NOT the surfer, Fly.

Brother Bill and his minions label cookies originating from the same domain first party and all others third party as I understand it. Where the second parties went to, that's something I am clueless about.

Third party cookies are not accepted by default UNLESS they have some specific privacy policy somewhere that IE6 looks for it.

Now that's about as technical as I can get on the issue without consulting a programmer for the language you want to hear all this in lol.

Here's the link from MS -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...privacyfaq.asp

One other thing I do know about our cookies tracking system is that we've got some sort of script set to look for sites that are using IFRAMES with their CCBill join page and for surfers that are using IE6 -- if those two things occur we break the CCBill join page out of the frames so the tracking still works as well.

If you've got more technical q's then either post them or email me and I will get you some answers from the programmer in charge of referral tomorrow.

Believe me when I say that neither CCBill nor it's sponsor sites it processes for is trying to keep anyone from getting a penny that's due to them. With all the crazy things going on in this industry right now, the last thing we'd want is to have issues with our clients.

Phil21

Erk.. I guess I'm the "Phil" Pete mentioned. ;)

He was slightly mistaken, and I'll elaborate, but the point remains that cookies are a stupid way to track surfers (as in it being the ONLY way). *IF* CCbill tracks IP, and of course does cookies, and allows the referral code to be put in the pages, then my hat goes off to them. This is the first I've heard about IP tracking though, I always wondered why sponsors didn't use it but perhaps I was wrong in that assumption. Is there any information about ccbill's IP tracking? How long do they retain IP address "memory", what happens if a surfer comes from two different affiliates, etc. etc. Be very cool if it was indeed turned on by default.

Anyways. the 30% figure is about right from what I can tell about surfers with cookies disabled. I wrote a real quicky gallery tracking program that basically lets me see which links on galleries get clicks, which referrer sent the most hits to a specific gallery, which has the most productive traffic, etc.

Every single surfer viewing the gallery gets a cookie (attampted) to set. Then the total of "views" is updated along with the referrer counts.

If they click on a link, it goes to an out.cgi type redirector, which reads the cookie and does some backend work, etc.

Basically for every 100 surfers I attempt to set a cookie on, I have roughly 30 who it fails. (that actually click out, there is no way to tell if your cookie is "accepted" other than trying to read it).

So around 30% of all my "click out" traffic is NOCOOKIE, and for the gallery I tested the software with was to iBill, which *only* tracks by cookies. So if any of those 30% signed up, I didn't get credit.

I have no idea what the ratio is for "missed signups", but that 30% of surfers with cookies disabled absolutely stunned me. I figured it would be around 1-2%.


this is TGP traffic, so the "average" surfer is probably more technicaly apt, and has been surfing porn for a while. you make your own assumptions.

-Phil

Phil21

In other words, if what people are saying about ccbills "fallback" method of tracking by IP address is correct, CCbill has it right.

Ibill again comes out the loser.

-Phil

Sleepy

Hi Phil,
Unfortunetly ccbill seems to have removed their detailed system documentation from their site. That may be for security reasons or because of their new site layout ( or i cant find it ). This is documentation I copy/pasted off the ccbill manual for my resellers some time ago.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How are clicks and sales tracked?
The minimum necessary data needed to track referrals to sales is the referrer ID and your CCBill ID.
All subscribers are tracked by two methods.
The first method is through a cookie that is set by our referral scripts. A cookie is set when a subscriber
hits our initial scripts upon leaving a referrer's site. The subscriber's IP address and current timestamp
are logged for checking against if the cookie is not accepted.
If a sale is made for a referral, CCBill will look for the cookie and query the Referral Master database for
the other information collected. Through these methods, it can determine who sent the referral that
resulted in an actual sale, and who to credit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When I called ccbill about a sale that was missed it was over a year ago. I havent called them to ask specifics since then. At the time a reseller had signed up through his own banner and the sale was missed. I have the I.P. of every member listed in my ccbill admin so we did a grep on this guy. What we found was that this guys I.P. changed over 100 times from the time he logged into my server to the time he signed up. His browser also did not accept the cookie. In a situation like that you cant track that sale, its not going to happen. BUT, if the guy gets the cookie or has a stable I.P. they will get the sale recorded and credited.

I have the I.P. of every single member within the ccbill admin. Based on my previous investigation and the fact that I have those I.P.s I am relatively sure that their system still works the same way. So out of the 30% that didnt get cookies set you can deduct a substantial portion of that error margin based on their I.P. being tracked. I track the I.P. on the signup form then pick it up on the welcome page members are redirected to. The margin of error between their report and mine is never more than 2%. Theres nothing you can do about a 2% error margin.. that is more than acceptable.

Phil21

Sleepy, cool shit. Thanks for the info.

Unfortunate, the gallery I was mentioning was an Ibill site. ;)

I have been fairly impressed by my ccbill revshare stuff, seems to have gotten most of the sales.

And you're correct, a 2% error margin is just stuff that has to be filed under the "shit happens" category. It sucks, but it would be cost prohibitive and labor intensive (to all affiliate programs, and limit a lot of the way signups could be collected) to reduce.


But, as mentioned all ccbill affiliate sites *SHOULD* be including the webmaster ID in the HTML signup pages as previously mentioned. There is no reason not to, and may actually catch a sale that would otherwise be missed now and again. If an affiliiate program does that, I would be very satisfied in that they are doing all they can to ensure they are not missing my sales. After all, it *IS* in the affiliate program's best interest to not record some sales, but hopefully you're not dealing with anyone that does it purposefully. ;)

Basically, I think taking the extra few hours to add the form fields to the html is the least an affiliate program could do, and should be expected by webmasters. That is just my opinion, of course. Why should I push a program that isn't taking all available reasonable measures to ensure I get proper credit?


-Phil

Sleepy

Im not sure but I think that seperate field would be used if you were going to supply a seperate signup page for each reseller. Epoch uses that system and it requires the reseller to host the tour pages. What some guys do is make one tour and a seperate signup page for each reseller. Based on a cookie and I.P. tracking a cgi then calls one of the unique signup pages to the surfer. I "think" thats the system Jeff T is referring too. Its the same thing ccbill does now only using a different method. It works but if the program does fail nobody gets credit for any sales. Instead of a 2% loss its a 100% loss till its repaired. So, theres no perfect answer.

Anyway, sorry cause I thought you were talking about ccbill Still an interesting conversation.

codecrawler

Well,

If anything this and other threads show what crap IBill really is.

Sjeez!

I say let's go with CCBill and fast too :D

CC

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Sleepy

I couldnt find the correct words to explain myself last night but I had also been awake for 22 hours straight. I think the code ccbill's Jeff T was referring to was for hardcoding the resellers code into the page. ( tadaaa ! ) Anyway, resellers used to complain about that method because they had to host the pages or the site owner had to host them. If the site owner hosted the pages there was room for error again. If the reseller hosted them it cost them 10x the bandwidth. So once again the bottom line is that my own resellers are pretty happy with ccbills method which in itself is a good indication of its accuracy. IBill is a different story but I wont go into it cause I dont use them anymore and thats 10 miles of bad road I left behind.

TheFLY

My suggestion would be to forward this thread to everyone on your ICQ list...

If they are going to steal my money, at least I want revenge.

codecrawler

Why do you suugest intend Fly?

I think it's sheer stupidity on Ibill's part

I mean look at the mess they are creating. Turning over lists to the FBI without cause, charity checkboxes nobody wants, etc.....

Sheer stupidity at work I'd say

CC

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Kimmykim

Well, I've talked to the master programmer of CCBill itself about this and to the head of referral programming.

And the bottom line is that unless the site owner or his programmer understands a bunch of form stuff with GET, POST, and good working knowledge of CGI (as you can all tell I have none of that) then there could be more harm than good to come out of fiddling with the way we're set up.

Any specific questions, email them to me and I'll direct them to the appropriate person for answers. And if you need to discuss it on the phone with someone regarding your site we process for, I can set you up with the person that you should be talking to, rather than you calling in to support and perhaps not getting the entire scoop

Keev

Very Interesting I hope, websiteBilling.com, Jettis, NetBilling and all other processors and paysite owners are taking notes!

If we are going to be cheated we are going to make it known not to promote such businesses that are unethical in there business practices.

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boneprone

whats for lunch?
Im hungry.

Dim Sum?

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boneprone

Hello Ibill Cathy.
Ill eat my lunch at home .

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Learn about it kids.