A serious blow to 'ad-supported' scumware

[Chimmy]

If you haven't heard of Commission Junction, here's a quick overview. Commission Junction is one of the largest, if not THE largest mainstream affiliate program on the net. Their clients include eBay, Geico, Yahoo Personals and so on. So, today when they made the following announcement, I did a little dance of joy.

In order to sustain this open marketplace of information, Commission Junction will no longer allow special programs engaged in the purchase of media from ad services that download and install software on an end-user's computer. For special programs currently engaged in such practices, Commission Junction requests that you immediately discontinue such practices. We will continue to monitor such programs to insure that special descriptions are properly updated.

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for scumware programs like casmedia, coolwwwsearch, standard internet, and more. Woo hoo!

[Theo]

Someone msg this thread to 12clicks

[machinegunkelly]

yeah , same as sponsors say publicly that they don't accept spam traffic .
As long as they don't get too many complaints they look the other way

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by machinegunkelly

yeah , same as sponsors say publicly that they don't accept spam traffic .
As long as they don't get too many complaints they look the other way

I disagree. The adult 'business' world plays by a different set of rules then mainstream. The type of clients that Commission Junction caters to can't afford to have their businesses dragged through the mud by sleazy business practices.

I take it from the other comment that 12 clicks has something to do with Commission Junction? That's too bad. Besides that, I have a lot of respect for Commission Junction.

[Thomas N]

LMAO, this will have zero impact on adware companies. Buy a clue.

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by SwordFish

LMAO, this will have zero impact on adware companies. Buy a clue.

Another one of the clueless as to how the 'real' world of business works. Sorry, but it's not the playground that you all enjoy in this business.

[Steen2]

Originally Posted by machinegunkelly

yeah , same as sponsors say publicly that they don't accept spam traffic .
As long as they don't get too many complaints they look the other way

He's right in that mainstream is different.

LMAO, this will have zero impact on adware companies. Buy a clue.

CJ alone? Nope.
The new laws being considered? Definitely.

Another one of the clueless as to how the 'real' world of business works. Sorry, but it's not the playground that you all enjoy in this business.

The adware business for the most part, does not rely on third party programs. The guys who do it well, do it through exclusive contracts and making a great (and horrible) brand for themselves (ex. smileycentral).




--
This is just my take on things.

[Chimmy]

You are right and you are wrong. Smiley central doesn't on it's own make money. These apps make their money by serving up advertising through various sleazy methods. So, if the advertisers aren't buying spots through smiley centrals channels, then smileycentral is not buying spots through companies like standard internet. So, it all has (hopefully) a big effect.

[JJ Gold]

I like to download cool screensavers.

[Thomas N]

Originally Posted by Steen2

CJ alone? Nope.
The new laws being considered? Definitely.

Bzzzt. Learn the difference between spyware and adware.

[Thomas N]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

Another one of the clueless as to how the 'real' world of business works. Sorry, but it's not the playground that you all enjoy in this business.

Idiot. You think big adware people are impacted by CJ decisions? You just exposed yourself as clueless on the subject, now run along back to "would you hit it" threads.

[Chimmy]

Oh boy. I have certainly been told by someone who is obviousy a giant in the industry. My friend, when those pesky little baby teeth finally get replaced with a set of real 'adult' teeth...well, you just come on runnin' back and we can continue this conversation at that time.

But you are right. Big adware people live in a wonderful little vacuum, where all outside decisions simply can't penetrate their super power 'real world' defence mechanism.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

Another one of the clueless as to how the 'real' world of business works. Sorry, but it's not the playground that you all enjoy in this business.

what is it you do, surfer, that gives you insite into how the 'real' world of business works?

[Chimmy]

JULY 24th, 2005

A bit of an update on this thread.

I was on one of the domain selling sites this morning, and what did I come across? Four of Standard Internet's primary domains are up for sale.

Now, I am sure we will hear the whole song and dance that the sites are for sale as they are moving on to bigger and better things. But, I myself would hazard a guess that the timing of the announcement by Commission Junction and the growing intolerence of the entire advertising industry for companies like Standard Internet that thrive on ad-supported software, would be more then of trivial significance to the sale.

Also, I find interesting in the sales thread that the poster, possibly this 12Clicks character, makes mention that they already have an offer of 25 thousand for one of the domains. $25,000...that's it?!? If this company was worth a smidgen of what 12Clicks boasts he is worth, then mentioning an offer for only $25,000 would serve little purpose other then to devalue the assets.

Okay, that's enough of my rant. The point is, looks like a nasty little part of the sleazy end of the internet business world has taken a hit, and I am once again doing a dance of joy.

[Spunky]

It's a start..I hate that fuckin scumware with a passion

[bhutocracy]

Whats wrong with ad supported software? theres a big difference between ad supported and coolwwwsearch.

[marketsmart]

ok... and no sponsors take traffic that isnt fully can-spam compliant. they must not because their anti-spam policies say so....

please, the all mighty dollar wins every time, sad but true....

[Chimmy]

And let's see, how does coolwwwsearch primarily get into your system? Well, smileys, would be one avenue, screensavers is another, and the list goes on. So the quick answer would be....they are one and the same.

And no, your question did not in any way slow down the intensity of my dance of joy.

[Relish XXX]

As Originally Reported by the NEW YORK TIMES 06/30/05:

BREAKING NEWS:

MICROSOFT PLANS TO BUY THE WORLD'S LARGEST SPYWARE COMPANY IN
AN ATTEMPT TO SPAM 40 MILLION+ COMPUTER USERS WITH MICROSOFT ADS

----- ---- --- -- - -

By Ray Everett-Church / eSecurityPLANET
July 18, 2005

Ray Everett-Church is a principal with PrivacyClue LLC, a
privacy consultancy. He is a founder of CAUCE, an anti-spam
advocacy group, and he is co-author of ''Internet Privacy for
Dummies.''

----- ---- --- -- - -

It's been a bad month for Microsoft's efforts to promote their
visions of trustworthiness and authentication in Internet
commerce.

Just as the ground began to crumble beneath Microsoft's "Sender
ID" email authentication proposal, it was discovered that the
Redmond, Wa.-based software giant was considering acquiring
Claria, one of the world's most notorious adware and spyware
companies.

Let's look first at the email authentication wars. As I've
discussed previously, the battle over email authentication has
been raging for several years. Among the many proposals being
considered by the email industry and Internet standards community
is Microsoft's Sender ID and its closely related cousin, the
"Sender Permitted From" or SPF standard.

Both SPF and Sender ID use text records entered into a domain's
DNS entry that define what IP addresses should be permitted to
send email for that domain. These definitions embedded in the
sender's DNS records are then queried and parsed by the receiving
server to determine whether to accept or reject a particular piece
of email.

As I reported back in October, Microsoft's Sender ID proposal
became the subject of much scorn when it was discovered that, at
the same time they were promoting Sender ID as a global standard,
they were trying to patent the technology surrounding Sender ID.

In the intervening months, numerous major service providers
participating in the Messaging Anti-Abuse Working Group, an
industry consortium that is promoting the development of new email
authentication standards, have continued to test Sender ID. Their
recently released findings are not good news for Microsoft.

According to the technical committee's white paper :

"At best, SPF and Sender ID are comparable to a license plate
issued by a foreign country: they show that the vehicle is
permitted to drive in that country, but make no indication as to
whether that country?s regulations are similar to yours ? and we
can only assume that the driver inside is permitted to use that
vehicle."

But the committee went on to explain that along with these dubious
benefits, there were some significant downsides to implementing
Sender ID.


These include:

* Forwarded or re-sent mail will fail authentication without
changing email systems to re-write return addresses and add new
headers;

* Those sites publishing authentication records must ensure that
their records permit mail from all possible points of origination
or risk having legitimate email mislabeled as spam;

* This method of authentication does not provide protection against
forgery of the most common user-visible mail headers;

* Receivers must be aware that performing some checks in accordance
with Sender ID and SPF may yield inaccurate authentication
results due to misinterpretation of the Sender's authorization.,
and

* If your operation provides email services to roaming users, you
may need to forge or add certain headers in order to ensure
successful authentication.


As a result, several major service providers have removed their
Sender ID and SPF statements from their DNS records in order to
avoid potential confusion and lost email.

But just as the industry is backing away from Sender ID, Microsoft
rekindled fears of monopolistic bullying tactics by unilaterally
declaring that all email sent to MSN and Hotmail would be scanned
for Sender ID compliance. Resistance is futile. If your company's
email doesn't pass a patent-pending Sender ID check, it might be
labeled as spam and consigned to the dreaded Spam folder.

Just as the world was trying to digest what Microsoft was
attempting to shove down its collective throat, word leaked out
that Microsoft was in talks to buy Claria, formerly known as Gator
-- one of the world's most notorious peddlers of spyware and adware
-- which I will call malware hereafter for the sake of brevity.

According to several news reports, Microsoft has been eager to
compete in the online advertising markets dominated by companies
like Yahoo and Google. Experts suggest that buying Claria would
give Microsoft a jumpstart in the market because of Claria
advertising network consisting of more than 40 million souls who
receive Claria annoying pop-up ads.

As one commentator wrote, this move "underscores just how eager
Microsoft is to catch up with Google, the search and advertising
giant."

Eager? How about desperate?

In my opinion, picking up Claria for its advertising network is
like buying a former nuclear bomb testing site because the lack of
anything standing gives you such great views in all directions.
Just don't touch anything, ignore the three-headed rabbits
populating the poisoned ground, and you'll be fine.

There are plenty of other ad networks out there, most of which got
to be successful without engaging in deceptive, unfair, and
lawsuit-provoking activities.

Some might say Microsoft and Claria have been unwittingly working
together for a long time. Claria advertising reach is directly tied
to its years of distributing malware and long history of its paid
"affiliates" taking advantage of security holes in Microsoft?s
operating system to install the software surreptitiously and without
end-users permission.

In its defense, Claria claims to be migrating its business model to
one focused on more legitimate forms of business. But like the Gotti
family and their garbage hauling business, I have a feeling that it
is going to take them some time to stop living off their other gigs.

More recent reports suggest that an acquisition of Claria is never
going to happen because Claria reputation is too tarnished for even
Microsoft's tastes. But that didn't stop Microsoft from giving Claria
a pre-engagement gift just last week -- downgraded threat rating in
Microsoft's anti-spyware utility!


According to Eric Howes of SpywareWarrior.com:

"Several sources have now confirmed that Microsoft downgraded its
detections of Claria?s adware products in the latest update (#5731)
to Microsoft AntiSpyware released today. Where Microsoft AntiSpyware
used to detect Claria?s products and present users with a Recommended
Action of 'Quarantine, following today?s update Microsoft AntiSpyware
now presents users with a Recommended Action of 'Ignore[.] Users can
still change the action to ?Quarantine? or ?Remove.?

In the end, though, this is nothing new. As I've noted before , other
security software makers have gone soft on malware. Microsoft's is only
the most recent, and to my way of thinking, the most unprincipled and
morally corrupt.

So the next time you hear pronouncements from Microsoft about their
efforts to make your computing experiences safer and more secure, a
deeper look may suggest that Microsoft's effort to be part of the
solution includes taking a bigger stake in the problem.


END OF ARTICLE

[tony286]

I guess we arent the only ones that are being tightened up lol

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by SwordFish

LMAO, this will have zero impact on adware companies. Buy a clue.

I'l give you and you go buy one... that's probably 5 % of their market down the hole already .

[Chimmy]

Oh Jesus, is all I can say. To the poster that says it's all about the mighty dollar. Time for a reality check. Yes, in the adult industry and fringe markets, sometimes it is. But when you are dealing with mainstream companies, on average, they are playing with a different set of rules.

But on the other hand, you are correct. Apparently, it is all about the mighty dollar for companies like Standard Internet. And the recent sale of their primary domains would indicate that the market is telling them that they are not willing to play by the business practices of those companies that make up the advertising fringe element.

[BlingDaddy]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

ok... and no sponsors take traffic that isnt fully can-spam compliant. they must not because their anti-spam policies say so....

please, the all mighty dollar wins every time, sad but true....

Your sig scares me.

[Doctor Dre]

I wonder what was the % of revenues they lost after download.com banned spywares

[marketsmart]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

Oh Jesus, is all I can say. To the poster that says it's all about the mighty dollar. Time for a reality check. Yes, in the adult industry and fringe markets, sometimes it is. But when you are dealing with mainstream companies, on average, they are playing with a different set of rules.

But on the other hand, you are correct. Apparently, it is all about the mighty dollar for companies like Standard Internet. And the recent sale of their primary domains would indicate that the market is telling them that they are not willing to play by the business practices of those companies that make up the advertising fringe element.

I hear ya and I am not trying to pick a fight, but i came from mainstream and i saw more crooked shit than i have seen in the adult side. everything was, we can do this but we need to cover our asses if this ever gets out...

my bet is that comm junc is covering themselves because of the spitzer spyware case in new york. i have a hard time believing that comm junc is going to kick a high rev generating aff for continuing to do this.

a final note. i didn't see anything that says you have to notify or disable exisitimg spyware already on users pc's. did i miss something? if they were really serious about this i would think that they would annnounce that they would terminate the aff for gen aff rev through spyware...

just my thoughts.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

And let's see, how does coolwwwsearch primarily get into your system? Well, smileys, would be one avenue, screensavers is another, and the list goes on. So the quick answer would be....they are one and the same.

And no, your question did not in any way slow down the intensity of my dance of joy.

Coolwwwsearch is a hijacker that fucks your whole surfing experience.. theres nothing wrong with installing an easy to remove toolbar or an ad area on a screensaver to get it free however... so long as it's properly disclosed. And doesn't alter your habits or change the way you experience the web.

[Chimmy]

And my apologies as well...after posting I almost went in and removed the sarcastic elements of my post. I do agree with you on a few points. When mainstream covers things such as ad-supported software and such, then yes, the morals and ethics are right down there with the lowest.

But, if a company wants to attract the big boys who spend the big dollars in online advertising, like Cisco, Chase Manhatten, Toyota, and so on....then they can't play the tricks used by companies like Standard Internet. Companies like SI attract the other low-end entities of the online world.

But, on that note...it looks like it's all coming to an end....so I must return to my dance of joy.

[bhutocracy]

Don't get me wrong either.. I hate spyware etc as much as the next guy.. and i've had my browser hijacked by coolwwwsearch which fucking sucked. But at the same time... something like screensavers.com isn't so bad.. they install an overture toolbar when you download a saver... you can't expect them to pay for bandwidth and advertising and give everything away totally free... there should be acceptable levels of ad support/revenue streams that allows a company to provide a "free" service.

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

Coolwwwsearch is a hijacker that fucks your whole surfing experience.. theres nothing wrong with installing an easy to remove toolbar or an ad area on a screensaver to get it free however... so long as it's properly disclosed. And doesn't alter your habits or change the way you experience the web.

Tell ya what. Go find a pop-up ad for smileys or any of the other ad-supported software. Then read through the couple thousand words located on the discloser statement. You will actually find a couple of interesting statements. Although you will have to look really really hard. One usually includes coolwwwsearch as one of the 'included" goodies, and some of those other fun little 'harmless' tidbits.

Or go read any of the knowledge bases of the respected adware /spyware removal companies. Those little extras are anything but easy to remove.

But again, this post is taking a severe segway. My point was and is, companies are taking a stance against companies that support ad supported software. And it looks like that stance is taking a tole on some of the industry members. And it is at that point that I again resume my dance of joy.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

Tell ya what. Go find a pop-up ad for smileys or any of the other ad-supported software. Then read through the couple thousand words located on the discloser statement. You will actually find a couple of interesting statements. Although you will have to look really really hard. One usually includes coolwwwsearch as one of the 'included" goodies, and some of those other fun little 'harmless' tidbits.

Or go read any of the knowledge bases of the respected adware /spyware removal companies. Those little extras are anything but easy to remove.

But again, this post is taking a severe segway. My point was and is, companies are taking a stance against companies that support ad supported software. And it looks like that stance is taking a tole on some of the industry members. And it is at that point that I again resume my dance of joy.

Dude.. I already know about Claria. It's the first thing i did when i saw those smiley ads everyfucking where... I went and found out how they were paying for the blanket advertising and generating revenue.. although I didn't think Claria used coolwwwsearch.. they have paid $25k campaigns to reach their install base.
But yeah.. you still wouldn't find me downloading them. It's just a shame to see a blanket ban when the revenue generation model has some merit if not abused.

[marketsmart]

But, on that note...it looks like it's all coming to an end....so I must return to my dance of joy.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. The govt is starting to get involved because consumers are sick of it. Just yesterday I removed a spyware app that was in 127 diff locations. I hate the fact that I had to learn how to clean out my registry to permenantly get this stuff off my machine. I blame MS as much as I blame the companies that are loading this on my machine. I am setting up a machine at home just for surfing. All my work stuff will be on a seperate machine. I will just wipe the disc every few months and re-install.

BTW, thanks for the apologies. It's nice to share different opinions and have friendly debates without becomming a personal attack fest...

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

JULY 24th, 2005

A bit of an update on this thread.

I was on one of the domain selling sites this morning, and what did I come across? Four of Standard Internet's primary domains are up for sale.

Now, I am sure we will hear the whole song and dance that the sites are for sale as they are moving on to bigger and better things. But, I myself would hazard a guess that the timing of the announcement by Commission Junction and the growing intolerence of the entire advertising industry for companies like Standard Internet that thrive on ad-supported software, would be more then of trivial significance to the sale.

Also, I find interesting in the sales thread that the poster, possibly this 12Clicks character, makes mention that they already have an offer of 25 thousand for one of the domains. $25,000...that's it?!? If this company was worth a smidgen of what 12Clicks boasts he is worth, then mentioning an offer for only $25,000 would serve little purpose other then to devalue the assets.

Okay, that's enough of my rant. The point is, looks like a nasty little part of the sleazy end of the internet business world has taken a hit, and I am once again doing a dance of joy.

no, you've got it right. where' going under and that 25,000 DOMAIN is really worth a million dollars but we've got to cut and run.

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

no, you've got it right. where' going under and that 25,000 DOMAIN is really worth a million dollars but we've got to cut and run.

Ahhh, the spin doctor is in the house. Spin away my friend.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Chimmy

Ahhh, the spin doctor is in the house. Spin away my friend.

haha, no. you've got it right. Just like all of your predecessors. I'd tell you, "talk to me next year" but you paper hat guys burn out in a couple of months.

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

haha, no. you've got it right. Just like all of your predecessors. I'd tell you, "talk to me next year" but you paper hat guys burn out in a couple of months.

You are an original, I'll give you that. On one hand, selling million dollar domains (see my take on this above)..on the other hand....responding like one of Pavlov's dogs to the sound of your name being posted on GFY.

[The Other Steve]

Chimmey - I haven't bothered to read the whole thread so I may be going back over old ground but you really sound like someone who hasn't been around in mainstream any longer than you've been around here.

Back in 2003 publishers were complaining to CJ about the crap that was going on with many of CJs big publishers and nothing was done. CJ demanded proof and when smaller publishers gave them Powerpoint presentations clearly showing screen by screen how the big guys were rorting the system CJ didn't want to know about it.

And now you think they're so wonderful because they have finally done something about it? They have only done something about it because it suits them to - not because they want to be fair to the surfer or their publishers.

And you're suggesting that adult is much dirtier than mainstream?

Please don't make more of a fool of yourself than you have to. Back out of this thread - let it die - and hope to God that no one digs it up in the future and reminds everyone of how much of fuckwit you are.

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

Dude.. I already know about Claria. It's the first thing i did when i saw those smiley ads everyfucking where... I went and found out how they were paying for the blanket advertising and generating revenue.. although I didn't think Claria used coolwwwsearch.. they have paid $25k campaigns to reach their install base.
But yeah.. you still wouldn't find me downloading them. It's just a shame to see a blanket ban when the revenue generation model has some merit if not abused.

Bottom line is ... they WERE abused ... and badly . So now people are just sick of it.

Dialers were a good form of billing for some european countries like France . People KNEW what they were, and there was really good money to be made from them. But the scammers ruined it all for the legit business.

[nastyking]

SmileyCentral is owned by Ask Jeeves and they are not affected if CJ no longer accepts them. Most (if not all of) their money comes from their PPC search engine.

Companies like Claria/180Solutions are also not affected as their business is based on their own CPM/PPC advertising programs.

Spyware like CoolWebSearch is also not affected as they never promoted programs like CJ in the first place.

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by The Other Steve

Chimmey - I haven't bothered to read the whole thread so I may be going back over old ground but you really sound like someone who hasn't been around in mainstream any longer than you've been around here.

Back in 2003 publishers were complaining to CJ about the crap that was going on with many of CJs big publishers and nothing was done. CJ demanded proof and when smaller publishers gave them Powerpoint presentations clearly showing screen by screen how the big guys were rorting the system CJ didn't want to know about it.

And now you think they're so wonderful because they have finally done something about it? They have only done something about it because it suits them to - not because they want to be fair to the surfer or their publishers.

And you're suggesting that adult is much dirtier than mainstream?

Please don't make more of a fool of yourself than you have to. Back out of this thread - let it die - and hope to God that no one digs it up in the future and reminds everyone of how much of fuckwit you are.

You are right on this one ... BUT they are still doing something about it ... it means the system will slowly adapt itself to a non-spyware environement wich I think is great.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

what is it you do, surfer, that gives you insite into how the 'real' world of business works?

real world - you mean YOUR world.

just cause YOU do installs doesn't mean others with a BRAIN can't make money in legit ways

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by nastyking

SmileyCentral is owned by Ask Jeeves and they are not affected if CJ no longer accepts them. Most (if not all of) their money comes from their PPC search engine.

Companies like Claria/180Solutions are also not affected as their business is based on their own CPM/PPC advertising programs.

Spyware like CoolWebSearch is also not affected as they never promoted programs like CJ in the first place.

I see smiley central advertising everywhere ... I doubt ask jeeve owns the advertising in MSN, ICQ and many other mainstream websites not owned by ask jeeves ...

[The Other Steve]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dre

You are right on this one ... BUT they are still doing something about it ... it means the system will slowly adapt itself to a non-spyware environement wich I think is great.

agreed mate

[Chimmy]

And to the poster that just joined us above. Welcome to the games. And in a style that I find is rather consistent across the board at GFY, you miss the main points of a post, but charge in head first with an opposing view, without really understanding what the view is that you are opposing.

But once again, you are cutting into my 'dance of joy" time.

Oops..thread is moving a little quicker then my typing...my response above was to "The other steve"'s first post...

Dance of joy resuming

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

real world - you mean YOUR world.

just cause YOU do installs doesn't mean others with a BRAIN can't make money in legit ways

another drunk lonely bitter night, eh cheesy?

[nastyking]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dre

I see smiley central advertising everywhere ... I doubt ask jeeve owns the advertising in MSN, ICQ and many other mainstream websites not owned by ask jeeves ...

They buy it? Ask Jeeves (SmileyCentral) is a major ad space buyer ...

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

another drunk lonely bitter night, eh cheesy?

I don't know Sleazydream, but coming from the guy who apparently has his pager set on "GFY post alert", your post seems somewhat ironic.

[SleazyDream]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

another drunk lonely bitter night, eh cheesy?

I love how when someone gets close to the truth you change the subject.

what's next - picking appart my spelling? maybe my grammer - a photoship or two?

I guess you're gona YELL at me again eh ron.... oh well.

tehe

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

I love how when someone gets close to the truth you change the subject.

what's next - picking appart my spelling? maybe my grammer - a photoship or two?

I guess you're gona YELL at me again eh ron.... oh well.

tehe

ahahaha, you couldn't get close to the truth if your mom pinned it to your sweater.

what's it like going thru life lonely and bitter?

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

real world - you mean YOUR world.

just cause YOU do installs doesn't mean others with a BRAIN can't make money in legit ways

Go go go ! sleazy vs 12 clicks battle ;)

[Chimmy]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

ahahaha, you couldn't get close to the truth if your mom pinned it to your sweater.

what's it like going thru life lonely and bitter?

See my post above. Irony still resounding loudly over here.

Now, c'mon everyone...the dance of joy is just beginning. Grab your dance partners.....