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http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=44498 "If there is an issue we will certainly let you know." Now that I realise this comes from the top, I'm absolutely stunned. Know what that ended up costing me? |
I am NO longer involved in this thread. God forbid I get both ladies mad at me ! Run for cover boys, if you know whats good fer ya !
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We are getting all of the questions we wanted to know answered here. That doesn't happen often.
Please don't take this thread off the topic with personal beef. If you had a specific problem with a company, state it, then if a company representative is here, please respond if appropriate. No personal beef here! Especially from other New Yorkers.:zzwhip Anyone have any experience with Jettis? |
Due to a few questions about the two...
How about Net Billing, or Epoch |
The best host is the host you aren't with.
They all have problems now and then, its the way it goes. You either get your own merchant account or you suck it up. |
Well, I've said this before, but I'm a huge fan of Epoch ...
They've bent over backwards for me ... The problems mentioned earlier from a couple of years ago have been totally resolved ... BTW ... I needed a flexible pay-per-minute billing setup that was really only feasible for their larger customers ... When I requested it, Epoch saw the benefit of it, and built an easy to use interface for smaller webmasters like myself ... I've been beta testing it this week ... and it works like a charm ... |
Sorry for my english beforehand.
I'm from Moscow. I'm on Ibill and been with them for like 3 years. We got some very good volume (premium clients and stuff like that, You know) with the guys and honestly it almost doesnt help which really scares me a bit. Let me explain - over 3 years Ibill had a lot of troubles. I got a lot of webmasters in my program and very good programmers in my team so it's been easy to see and track such stuff cause as soon as something happened someone would knock me on ICQ or over phone immediately :D. But unlike now all of their problems used to be fixed in a matter of a week or two as MOST long. When this time crap started 2 monthes approximately ago and been growing since that time. Ibill always was keeping their secrets good - but now it has been 2 monthes already with no clear explanation on what goes on when something obviously does. Why? Well rebillings are a pain in ass nowdays - because a lot of them stay LATE (i.e. they are still in SHEDULED for dates which have passed already) and that IS a trouble because I feel some just get lost as long as people dont get rebilled on time. I mean people have money on credit cards one day and another they might simply not. And if their card is not rebilled for like 2 weeks - sometimes they just manage to cancel and that's it. As for all the rumours which go on about Ibill and how they manage their things - there's a pretty easy explanation. You see, when we have opened a master account at Ibill for some reason we were not given an account representative which we aquired only recently whith whom by the way I am very satisfied. So with all the troubles which ever happened when I called I have always spoken to different representatives. And when I called like twice on the same problem - I almost always had different versions of the story told me by Ibill guys. What I mean is that sometimes their guys just tell different things to different people. I think You may understand the rest. :) I dont think it's done on purpose though. I think it just happens so. When recent troubles occured I started searching for new options as a secondary billing company. Let me tell You about my experience. First of all I didnt go to CCBILL. Why? Well I got half percent to 1 percent chargebacks ratio on Ibill, why should I settle for more scrubbing then Ibill does? Besides I dont like lying to folks and though I work through foreign offhores companies I'd still like to call to companies office , speak with representatives and have no intention naming myself John Smith so no choice left - CCBILL doesnt take Russian webmasters. No problems with payouts though to russians - anyways we're making payouts ourselves cause most of our webmasters are from Russia and thus we know better how to pay our guys then any US based billing company does. But still I would not like to hide my nationality. Anyways I had a thought of having 2000 CHARGE to be a secondary billing and boy that was fun! I called them from Moscow. That's like 2$ per minute call. What I got is an automated secretary telling me approximately the following: -Hi! Please push 1 to speak to customer service , please push 2 to speak to sales representative, please push 0 to speak to the company operator I pushed 2 and the womans voice said happily -Hi! All our representatives are currently busy! 2 other clients are waiting to connect. Please push 1 to hold or 0 to go to the main menu I pushed 1 to hold. After holding for couple of minutes I was directed back to main menu automatically. There I pushed 1 to speak to the customer service at least and found out that they are all also busy and there 1 more clients who wish to connect. I went on hold again and got back to the main menu. You wont beleive it but company's operator happened to be extremely busy as the automated voice told me and had 2 more clients waiting to connect so I went on hold. I would have hanged up already but this "2 more clients waiting to connect" stopped me and so it went - I jumped between company's operator, client services and client support for like fucking 50 minutes and in the end I had a strong feeling that first of all I know their hold music by fucking heart and that there are A LOT of people waiting to connect. I still have a feeling I was bullshitted somehow for a fucking hundred of bucks on 2 dollar rate per minute but me being stupid russian doesnt help to understand how. Oh shit ! :D May be those were not REAL clients waiting for connect? Fuck these american ways of buisness. Finally I chose PSW BILLING as a secondary billing and YET I like it. |
wow incognito, i cant wait 5min waiting on the phone and you lasted 50min! :)
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Oh my I would love to jump in the middle of this - since I am the .BillingGURU.
I've posted a few of the articles I've collected on the various 3rd party processors. You might want to check them out on the newly redesigned http://www.billinguru.com some pointed out by Incognito. (thanks :) ) oh okay Here is my take on the whole, after looking at everybody, money talks bullshit walks. I'll take my 8% +.30 per transaction on subscription and 2.9% on products (to start the more you do the less you pay) with double the thru put from any of the other 3rd party processors. I've tested it myself. Not to mention the fact that I can take payments from 38 different countries (how many can countries can the others?) Not to mention the fact that I don't have to wait for a check/wire/etc to come, whenever I want I simply pull, which can be daily, so I'm earning money on the interest vs. the 3rd party billing company. Not to mention I've never had to wait more then 24 hours for a response on any issue (as a regular - not a premium webmaster) Not to mention they have a staff of 25+ people who do nothing but fight (and I do mean fight them not just refund them and count as a chargeback but actually fight the bank for them) chargebacks - mmmm how many does ibill have? (I used to work there I know the answer) how many does ccbill have? (i'm still waiting to get that answer) Oh yeah and while adult is great, and has been responsible in a huge part for building the 3rd party billing system online, its not everything and I feel much more confortable going with a company that isn't completely dependent (ie 85% or better) adult. While there are certain areas of the world that have problems (sorry Russia) with getting accounts due to some bad apples, it was really easy to get done. BTW I own and I work for Billiguru.com no one else!!! oh yeah and to be fair I should mention the company - www.paypal.com I have all the contact and documents if anyone is interested, unfortunatley since they are in the process of going public I can't post their direct contact information in a public forum, for another couple of weeks or so |
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Losing $30 million quarterly mostly due to fraud and multi-million dollar fines from Visa/MC ... The IPO is merely an attempt to keep their money losing operations afloat ... Reports of webmaster account balances being seized for over a year now (some showing up in this forum) ... with no explanation from the company... Basically, it's a piss poor operation. I refer you to http://www.paypalsucks.com among dozens of other sites. Also to an article in Salon.com, http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...al/index2.html ... among others. |
Paypal....
Epoch accepts payments from 181 countries, and I am almost certain that CCBill and IBill do as well. Epoch has 100+ employees who work (Fight) with issuing banks and cardholders to reduce credits and chargebacks, not sure about the other 3rd party processors. Also, if Paypal is processing 320M per month which they represent, seems to me having a staff of 25 fighting on behalf of clients is a tad bit understaffed, wouldn't you agree? You probably do get excellent throughput with Paypal, I've heard they scrub very little at all, having 80% plus non-adult really helps to dilute the high risk adult transactions in terms of chargeback ratios. Even with this large percentage of non-adult didn't they pay some massive fines for chargebacks? Were you aware that if you process ANY high risk adult transactions through a merchant account then that account must be classified as high risk 5967... What happens when Paypal has to split their high risk adult into a separate 5967 merchant account? There goes your non-adult dilution factor. Think they will be able to maintain their chargeback ratios then? Maybe they can with their superior scrubbing technology which doubles thru put of high risk transactions:) Oh, and what about the increasing number of horror stories of Paypal freezing funds on accounts with no explanation, could this possibly be related to large numbers of chargebacks on these accounts and just maybe related to this double thru put you speak of... Please.... Clay Andrews Epoch http://www.epochsystems.com |
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CCBill has a large call center devoted to handling the support for the customers of the web sites. I will not disclose how many work there. As far as chargebacks go, I am one of the people directly responsible for chargebacks. Our incentives are aligned with our clients. I will show you how: Our fee structure is "Gross-Refunds=the amount that we base our fee off of." Essentially, that means that if you had $1,000 in sales one week, and the same week had $500 in refunds, our fee would be based off of: $1,000(sales) - $500(refunds) =$500(what we base our percentage off of). If an account is at 14.5%, then that would mean that $500 * .145= $72.50 in CCBill fees If we did not issue any refunds that week, then: $1,000(sales) - $0(refunds) =$1,000(what we base our percentage off of). If an account is at 14.5%, then that would mean that $1,000 * .145= $145.00 in CCBill fees In this example, by not explicitly issuing refunds, our fee doubled. That means that for every refund that CCBill issues, it subtracts the percentage of its fee by that same amount. But we are still stuck with all of the costs (bank transaction, etc) associated with the original purchase and subsequent refund. You can see that it is not in our best interest to openly issue refunds. As far as chargeback?s are concerned, every billing company knows that chargeback?s are very expensive and CCBill relies on its fraud scrubbing to keep them as low as possible. In CCBill?s history, it has not ever charged any fees or penalized webmasters for chargeback?s. |
Hi All,
Don't foget about us... Netbilling. Not as big but extremely customer service oriented, fully customizable emails and join pages, ultimate reliability, and about 1/2 the price of the 3rd party processors. You must have a merchant account and we product sales including a free shopping cart system and of course recurring billing with any price trials including free allowed. We allow you to sert your own level of fraud scrubbing for your sites using our risk management center in the admin..... and of course we will also handle of all your customer service too. Compare our admin and reporting to what your are currently using. You will definitely be pleasantly surprised. And yes.... we can easily switch you from your current processor without missing a signup. Mitch |
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willo, I don't know what your issues are, but as I see it there are two ways to handle it -- one, you can keep posting whatever you want -- that's your prerogative, and I'll answer as I see fit. Most everyone that posts here regularly is aware that regardless of anything I post, I am around 99% of the time and if there's a problem I get it corrected as quickly as I possibly can. Option two, you can email me if you have a problem, and I'll do the same for you as I do for anyone else. Good to see you posting here Clay, Epoch's taken some guff over the years, some warranted, some not, I'm sure -- not my place to judge or comment, since I don't work there and don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Too many companies don't get out and post, get themselves known by the community, and as such, webmasters don't really know where to go when they need something. Your paypal comments are on the money I'd venture to say as well. Jettis? Good company. Top notch support and a great staff. Before I came to CCBill, I worked for their sister company, Cashquest, a name many of you know to mean honest payouts, great niche sites and good support. Same with the Jettis crew. Last but not least, ANY processor who can stay in line with the cc's, issue checks and process many countries (we only have 33 we DON'T take) is ok in my book. Now, where's my popcorn? |
Mitch ...
Take some notes from Kimmy Kim ... Quit spamming! People will notice your product a lot more if you quit doing the hard sell and actually try to contribute to the discussion ... Instead of relentlessly peddling all of this PR crap! You're not going to gain any credibility on this board by responding to very post with a damn press release that, most of the time, has nothing to do with the recent posts being discussed. Geez! Only 11 posts, and just about all of it is spam. Where are the spam police?! LOL |
I specifically how many people do nothing at your companies but fight chargebacks, not handle customer service.
AS far as your 181 countries, do the credit cards have to be on the US Visa network? What about Discover? What about AMEX? Can you take direct debit from all 181 countries? Also fees? Can you start your fees at 9%? Like I said - money talks bullshit walks.... Also can I sweep the money I've made today into MY bank accounts and earn the interest off it? Or are you going to hold if X amount of days earning the interest off of it, as well as taking your 15% to start fees? Also how much of your business is dependent on adult? MMM a company that will disappear if Visa requires all transactions to be coded as adult like they did for gambling, (hint - most banks automatically decline the those gambling coded transactions) I know that if that happens won't affect my traffic much, they'll just set up a paypal account and pull the money from there. I'm not spamming any product I believe I've been posting pros and cons. |
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Oh yeah - thier sic code is misc not adult - high thru put, and what happens to you CCBill, Epoch, etc when this happens to them. with 320 million in billing a month, I think they have some decent bargining power. |
A few questions you didn't answer Melissa ...
What about PayPal losing $30 million quarterly? What about webmasters's accounts being seized without explanation? What about PayPal's multi-million dollar fines, fraud charges, etc.? What about the distinct possibility that PayPal may go out of business? |
we just switched from iBill to Epoch.
One thing I hate about iBill which is so easy to fix. The worst customer service around. I dont know what is going on over their. Being a premium account doing maga sales processed through them, we were treated like a no body. They couldnt even return phone calls. I would make numerous calls over and over with no success. Epoch is solid. Whatever happened long ago was long ago. All the major programs are using them. We had them as primary long ago but switched, now switched back 2 months ago. CC Bill is solid also, they are the processor I would use as secondary. We may switch soon. iBill has thousands of members with them of ours, if we pulled all the traffic charge backs would be high, so we are have to leave them as secondary for now. Epoch #1 CC Bill - I think #2 never used them. iBill - I dont know whats going on over their. |
http://www.sgtfuzzbubble99.homestead...e_Niro/cop.gif SPAM POLICE
Mitch, we've had some complaints about you spamming. Normally that would be an unexcuseable offense but because you have done nothing but told exact facts instead of saying... "We offer the best rates in the business, ICQ me and I'll tell you more about them!" I will let you off with a warning this time. Just keep on giving that detailed information! It may sound like spam but you aren't being vague which is worse! Kimmy, I know it's the weekend so you might not have the information on hand, you DO accept a lot of cards from a lot of countries but can you tell me what those 33 countries that you don't accept payment fromare? |
Pornwolf, I'm out of the office until Tuesday so I don't have that country list with me. It is comprised mostly of Eastern Europe, Middle Eastern and Asian countries -- and if you'll email me I'll be happy to get you the entire list on Tuesday.
MelissaD, stop bitching at Clay about nonsense. :1orglaugh Amex is OUT of ADULT INTERNET for the moment, and that was a so called moral decision, not a monetary one. Amex higher ups will be glad to tell you that if you have their number. With the new ruling on banks, MC/Visa and Amex, my money's on Amex coming back to adult sometime not too far off. What you are talking about with transaction codes makes no sense either, nor does comparing it to gambling. Visa and MC are WELL aware that Epoch, IBill and CCBill process adult transactions, didn't you read what Clay said about SIC codes? Paypal is a good alternate solution, I'll be the first to say that (and I don't get a dime in referral fees from them either) but they aren't the be all, end all of the billing world. We, CCBill, will move to fight all frivolous chargebacks as soon as cvv2 becomes mandatory (and it's coming, and soon) since we'll have the ability to prove the customer did make the charge and it will be an automated system. Any company paying an employee an average of $20 to fight a $15 administrative fee is losing money. My suggestion to those that are reading this thread, those that either need or might need processing, take control of this thread back. Ask the questions you want the answer to, and I'm sure that Clay, the "three horsemen", myself, etc will try to answer them for you :) There's no point in a piss here when you guys want some solid answers about how business can and does work when it involves your money. |
Getting back to the original thread.
Best is in the eye of the beholder. Is there a best car or a best house. Its best to you if it suits your needs. Lets take the recent question about countries into consideration. How many countries is a given processor allowing or disallowing. If you have a webhosting company processing with websitebilling.com you may have more countries available to you then you would if you were a content site. A content site may have more countries available then a live cam , one on one site. A live cam , one on one site may have less countries available but would be allowed more multiple sales in a given period from a single client than would a content or hosting site. Granted some countries are disallowed for everyone. Not to worry as most monthly memberships would probably exceed most of these countries average citizens yearly earnings. Many of the processors offer similar services on the top, but when your really fine tuning your business and need specific solutions unique to your growing company you may find the subtle differences between the processors become more clear. If there is one suggestion I would give above all suggestions is... make sure you have a best and a second best. :rainfro |
What about PayPal losing $30 million quarterly?
***As noted in PayPal's S-1 filing, PayPal is currently EBITDA Cash-flow positive as of Q4 2001. What about webmasters's accounts being seized without explanation? ***This is vague. Millions of merchants love PayPal. In the rare cases when accounts do get restricted, it is typically to protect the merchant or the customer from fraud. What about PayPal's multi-million dollar fines, fraud charges, etc.? ***I suspect that this refers to fraud incidents that PayPal (and the rest of the online commerce space) faced back in 2000. The good news is that PayPal's overall fraud rate and chargeback rate was less than 0.5% of total transaction volume in 2001 -- when you process $4 Billion annually, that is no easy feat. While PayPal is able to successfully fight fraud, charge-backs, and fines on behalf of our merchants, many of their competitors were not -- and those competitors are now out of business. What about the distinct possibility that PayPal may go out of business? ***As stated in PayPal's S-1 filing, PayPal is currently EBITDA Cash-flow positive as of Q4 2001, and has sufficient capital to support ongoing operations. All signals point to PayPal's continued operations. Personally I think this last question is bullshit but I'll address it: Wouldn't smaller, less diversified billing companies be at a greater risk of going out of business? For example, PayPal processes $4 Billion per year --this is EIGHT TIMES the more than iBill). Are those clear enough answers for you? |
Oh yeah btw, since paypal has a MISC SIC code and adult charges aren't at this point having to be coded they can be processed for AMEX and Discover, mmm AMEX is 4%. I'll take it every time.
What is CCBILL's SIC code? What is Epoch SIC code? I know for a fact that if I call up Bank of America and ask about a transaction from ibill, ccbill, or epoch (from experience) they automatically charge is back, no questions asked, I've actually had to say just wanted to know about the charge. MMM could it be that because those companies do primary business in Adult that the banks know that and why chargebacks are soo easily processed and their SIC codes? My point in all of this is - diversity is everything, I personally would rather do business with a a billing company that knows not to put all of their eggs in one basket - just like they tell me not to do. |
Up until recently I been using ccBill for secondary, now that I have switched it to primary I have been looking at my declines.
What does CCBill- Score Decline as a reason for decline mean? The other reasons given are pretty self explanatory. |
Pornwolf,
Sorry about the spam.... Just getting my foot in the door on this board. Never saw it until a week ago but it is awesome. When someone comes out spewing B.S. and making things up when they have no diversified experience, it just pisses me off and makes me defensive. I will control my spamming temper. Thank you, Mitch |
"***As stated in PayPal's S-1 filing, PayPal is currently EBITDA
Cash-flow positive as of Q4 2001, and has sufficient capital to support ongoing operations. All signals point to PayPal's continued operations. " --------------------------------------- While I know nothing about Paypal's financials and wouldn't claim to, wasn't Enron financially solid on paper? ;) Labret -- it's a scrub decline. If you have questions about that or anything else you are seeing, email me and I'll be happy to get you a breakdown of what's what to the extent that I can let you know. |
I personally find Pay-Pal convenient to use in a lot of situations and I'm sure a lot of people do as well. Especially when you don't feel like going to find a credit card for a purchase. But in the spirit of this thread (More Information!) I have provided a couple of links to check out on this subject.
ZDnet Article On PayPal's coming IPO http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-830443.html http://www.paypalwarning.com Security issues that could affect Paypal's future http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-825076.html Citibank removes the fee for it's C2it Service http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-275930.html Watch Citibank's payment service. They are extremely well funded, FDIC insured, and established in the merchant world. I would expect them to grow exponentially by the end of the year. We might be saying "What happened to Pay Pal?" by the end of the year. That is... unless the get bought by a bank after the stock drops in the future. |
Appearently PayPal has postponed their IPO:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...pal_delays_ipo Here's some more interesting information: http://www.techtv.com/cybercrime/int...370214,00.html |
Great thread, there is so much here to respond to. I don't know where to start.
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Why does everybody use a third party billing company that takes 15% and has so many problems ? I have had a merchant account since 1995 and no problems ever and they only take 3%.
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serious?
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Cameraman,
what kind of merchandise are you selling? Is it adult site memberships or content? Be more specific. We are all wondering because (and I think I speak for most of us here) it seems like using a plain merchant account is risky for paysites. It seems like the chargebacks would kill us! |
I hope I can clear a bit the air about Globill's rebilling policy.
Globill does not send out emails to customers notifying them they are about to be rebilled. We never have. I noticed an "example" posted in a thread here supposedly showing such an email but this was in fact a confirmation email telling the customer that their membership had just renewed, not that it was about to renew. |
"I noticed an "example" posted in a thread here supposedly showing such an email but this was in fact a confirmation email telling the customer that their membership had just renewed, not that it was about to renew."
---------------------- How does notifying a customer when a rebill's been processed affect the longevity of the billing? Does it serve as a friendly reminder to the consumer, preventing chargebacks down the road, or does it serve as a friendly reminder for them to call you up, cancel, and potentially ask for a refund on the new charge? Does anyone have any numbers as to what sort of effect this has on rebilling? I'm very curious. |
Jeez, you really dug this thread out of the ground. It was originally started in January.
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I think jettis is the best choice, going to use it myself.
The major difference with ccbill and ibill are: setup fees ($999 for aff.software and $249 for cc processing) |
Uh oh. This one's back.
Kimmy has a good point though. Although if anyone would know this research info I would have thought the biggest processors already would. |
well my chargeback ratio is below 0.5%
check sig for globill. |
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So I figure since the guy from Globills here, he probably can answer the question for me. :) |
or u could e-mail him? anyway just talked to hiom will be over soon.
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Hi Kim,
Thanks for your inquiry. I could answer the question for you with exact numbers but that would be giving a (respected) competitor three years worth of our market research for free.:winkwink: Suffice to say that our policy of giving a receipt to each paying customer after each purchase has had the net effect of minimizing chargebacks and maximizing overall take-home pay for our clients. |
kimmy?
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Darren, if you dont get a paycheck from Globill, I don't know why.
Not really a matter of giving us your market research, that's the sort of thing that we wouldn't consider doing unless it were either a cc's requirement or a webmaster requested it. Quite frankly, our scrubbing only declines about 10% of the total declines and we don't have a chargeback issue, never have, haven't been fined, yada yada. We closely monitor both our clients and their resellers and we tweak our scrubbing down to the reseller if need be. So from the standpoint of net income, I'd say we're not doing poorly at all for our clients. Thanks for the answer lol, I'd probably have said something very similar if you'd asked about certain parts of our business... |
I have been using globill for over a year ! They are the most professional business that I have run into in this business. I wish more people in all aspects of this biz would follow suit !
:) ============================================ http://www.adult-web-business.com |
Never had a charge back with Globill ! :)
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Since there are some CC Processing Comanies reading this thread, I have a question for ya'll. How hard do you try to rebill a customer? If the initial rebill is declined for insuffient funds, do you just cancel the membership, try once, twice, depending on the account. I am very curious. I know Ibill tries to rebill after 3 days if it is declined. What about CCbill, Epoch, etc. Just curious,
ZoiNk |
i just reccomend Globil because all i have had is positive experience with them and there support staff
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Excellent thread...Why no comments on Jettis????
JETTIS JETTIS??? common we tapped everything else it seems.. |
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