Who Here Has Their OWN MERCHANT Account...How Difficult Is IT??? - GoFuckYourself.com

ProjectNaked · 06-24-2005, 12:16 PM

I've noticed a few of the bigger players mention they have their own merchant account - so how difficult is it to maintain for a large paysite?

14% is really nipping at my ass -

SinSational · 06-24-2005, 12:17 PM

it's not. might be tough to get one for adult unless you are doing big numbers. contact mitch at netbilling

seven · 06-24-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProjectNaked

I've noticed a few of the bigger players mention they have their own merchant account - so how difficult is it to maintain for a large paysite?

difficulty will depend on who you ask

JakeR · 06-24-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinSational

it's not. might be tough to get one for adult unless you are doing big numbers. contact mitch at netbilling

getting harder to get a domestic merch. acct if you are doing low numbers, but offshore isn't bad at all.

ProjectNaked · 06-24-2005, 12:42 PM

Thanks for the responses so far

- any more suggestions on who to use?

tigerallenyim · 06-24-2005, 12:48 PM

Yeah, High risk adult merchant accounts are very difficult to acquire:
Money for one thing.
Strict compliances
and keeping them clean is another factor.

Netbilling maybe a gateway thing, but i think they do offer that as well.

AmateurFlix · 06-24-2005, 12:56 PM

I have one from netbilling for tangible items, not a membership site. It's fairly easy as long as there's nothing wrong with your own background/credit, at least for tangibles.

However, for the extra service that a 3rd party like ccbill provides in dealing with customers 24/7, setting up the site interface, etc., I think it would be foolish to try your own merchant account unless it's going to be saving you $20k+ per year, IMO. A secondary c.c. processor would probably be a much better source of additional funds.

tigerallenyim · 06-24-2005, 12:56 PM

Bump for ProjectNaked

baycouples · 06-24-2005, 01:01 PM

It's not about the % that you pay ( you'll probably end up paying at least 10% with your own merchant account as well ) - it's about owning your own rebills. WHen you're using a 3rd party processor - they own the rebills.

Owning your own client base ( rebill customers ) increases the value of your company by A LOT.

ProjectNaked · 06-24-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baycouples

It's not about the % that you pay ( you'll probably end up paying at least 10% with your own merchant account as well ) - it's about owning your own rebills. WHen you're using a 3rd party processor - they own the rebills.

Owning your own client base ( rebill customers ) increases the value of your company by A LOT.

very good point -

as for the savings, I have a good understanding of how the processing system works and how much it would save me, I am just concerned about how many people I will need to hire to manage the paper work, transactions, customers, etc... The 14 percent is reasonable for someone who has absolutly no clue about business operations and needs a hands-free solution but I am looking to the future and I will need total control.

Thanks for the good responses :food-smil

SMachiz · 06-24-2005, 01:21 PM

Check out http://www.merchantplus.com. They have one of the best payment gateway/merchant account setups around and are much lower in price than most others.

I would think that your fees would be considerably less than 10%.

Regards,

Adam-EB · 06-24-2005, 01:31 PM

It's actually quite easy to get a merchant account. We didn't use Netbilling to get our account, but we do use them to process with. My understanding is that they can help get you one, though.

Danny939 · 06-24-2005, 01:40 PM

I, too, agree with baycouples. I'm an Ibill survivor, and by far the worst damage was done by not owning the rebills. I've been with Paycom since Ibill's implosion, and my Paycom rep recommended me to someone, whom I'm in the process of getting hooked up with. I'll only save $1 a transaction, but owning the rebills is priceless, because I don't ever want to have "an Ibill" again.

I was glad Paycom referred me, because I was getting no response to my merchant account inquiries. They probably, correctly, look upon adult as difficult, and also my dollar volume ($7.5 mo) as too low to bother with. And this coming from a site that's been in business for 8 years and a chargeback ratio of literally 1 in 1,000. On a 1 to 10 scale, I rate the difficulty, so far, as a 7.

The only part of this I still don't get, but will figure out, is that Paycom will be my "gateway" and what happens if your gateway goes south? Can I replace a gateway quickly. Don't know. Like everything in this business, a lot of details. If anyone knows this detail, please enlighten me.

Janet Reno · 06-24-2005, 01:41 PM

it's not hard at all... if your books are clean you have nothing to worry about

Theo · 06-24-2005, 01:45 PM

Danny,if you got your merchant account seperately and not through a deal coming with the specific gateway you can replace with no problems. Usually merc.account providers force you to use their own gateway solution, in that case things are more complicated.

Thee Johnclave · 06-24-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

However, for the extra service that a 3rd party like ccbill provides in dealing with customers 24/7, setting up the site interface, etc., I think it would be foolish to try your own merchant account unless it's going to be saving you $20k+ per year, IMO. A secondary c.c. processor would probably be a much better source of additional funds.

Many gateway processors, ourselves and Netbilling included, offer these services. The only real difference in service is the merchant account belongs to you and the bank pays you not the processor.

ProjectNaked...hit me up at [email protected] I may have a solution for you.

John

Hinc · 06-24-2005, 02:34 PM

hmm been looking for one too.
Im just almost more scared of these "merchantXXX.com" sites, than i am of the third party processors....No doubt merchantsolutions, merchantboss, merchantplus or whatever theyre called may be fully legitimate. I just dont have the tools to separate good from bad - and judging from numerous threads inhere ongoingly, at least some significant number are indeed bad.

E-Randy · 06-24-2005, 02:35 PM

Running with your own merchant account is NOT an easy process. Going with an IPSP screws you in the ass if they go under. DMR anyone? I don't see Paycom or CCBill going anywhere anytime soon, but you never know. If you can handle the additional workload of managing your own account (24/7 customer service, chargebacks, rebills, inquiries, etc.) without it impacting your marketing/sales efforts, then by all means, do it. Mitch at Netbilling has always been a stand up guy and I think he's your best bet.

E-Randy · 06-24-2005, 02:40 PM

Another thing to look at bro. See what type of impact switching from a 3rd party processor to your own account has on sales. You may be saving yourself from paying 14%, but you may lose sales from customers that are only comfortable buying using a company like CCBill or something. Also, I don't know about your affiliate program, but some affiliates will only work with a system that is cheat proof.

pstation · 06-24-2005, 02:46 PM

why are processing fees for adult so fucking astronomical for adult compared to mainstream?

vicki · 06-24-2005, 03:16 PM

Merchant accounts are NOT as hard to get as they used to be, trust me thats the one thing I specialize in lol

Whether domestic or offshore the rules have changed significantly in the past year. USbased banks are drying up quickly but is still one that isn't being fined left and right by Visa and they even take startup or low-volume clients. Larger US clients simply show good past transaction history and get higher volume allowances. The US application process is very simple and US discount rates run approx 4 - 5%.
Approval time is usually about 2 days from the bank then Visa takes another 2 weeks or so (I usually call them for registration info rather than waiting on all their paperwork)

Offshore, EU and Asian options are readily available and the options are quite numerous. You no longer have to give every single bit of details including your underwear color to these guys as we have streamlined the application process and I guide you through all the questions and answers you might have. I tell you what documentation you will need (again, much less than in the past), you give it to me and I do the rest. Approval can usually be done from 2-3 weeks if the bank isn't backlogged, (although I have one that usually does it in 1 week).
With these options, discount rates will usually range between 6.5-9% dependant on specifics of the company submitting.

If any of you have questions you'd like answered please don't hesitate to call/email/icq me .. thats what I'm here for ;)

vicki · 06-24-2005, 03:33 PM

Hinc, then don't use them! Use me, I've been in the adult industry since 97 and moved into the merchant account business because I saw so many of my fellow webmasters go down due to 3rd party processors. I know the industry and I know merchant accounts ;)

E-Randy, times and solutions have changed over the past year. Its very easy to use a plug-in solution for 24/7 support and inquiries. The chargebacks are no more an issue with merchant accounts as they are with 3rd party billers, the difference is the fraud control. Most of the gateways that are associated with high-risk merchant accounts have all the same (if not more) fraud control options at your fingertips.

As for surfers, I don't think they really 'prefer' the 3rd party, I think they just feel better seeing secured servers and the V/MC logos. As for the affiliates, I think most understand there is no such thing as 'cheat proof' lol

vicki · 06-24-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstation

why are processing fees for adult so fucking astronomical for adult compared to mainstream?

pstation, the difference is two-fold imho.
First you have the underwriters taking on the full volume of high-risk sites. They are called high-risk for a reason .. cb's and fraud. When someone purchases clothing over the internet there is a delivered product to back up deliveries etc. Product vendors must also post their refund policies for each buyer to see, thus it brings the risk down.

The second reason are the middlemen like the 3rd party processors. When you use an IPSP they take on part of that risk and charge you much more because of it. Having your own merchant account is much cheaper on the wallet but you will still pay more than a clothing store website

Shoehorn! · 06-24-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProjectNaked

I've noticed a few of the bigger players mention they have their own merchant account - so how difficult is it to maintain for a large paysite?

14% is really nipping at my ass -

I have one for mainstream, getting one for adult won't be easy.

E-Randy · 06-24-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicki

As for surfers, I don't think they really 'prefer' the 3rd party, I think they just feel better seeing secured servers and the V/MC logos. As for the affiliates, I think most understand there is no such thing as 'cheat proof' lol

If you're talking about a well seasoned surfer that is a repeat buyer, they may feel more comfortable knowing they are purchasing through the same company - eg. CCBill or Paycom. By 'cheat proof' I am referring to sponsors not being able to manipulate click or sales data since it is controlled by CCBill or Paycom. Take a poll of affiliates that feel more comfortable working with an affiliate program through CCBill or one created by the company itself. I bet more will lean towards CCBill.

Chio The Pirate · 06-24-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProjectNaked

I've noticed a few of the bigger players mention they have their own merchant account - so how difficult is it to maintain for a large paysite?

14% is really nipping at my ass -

YARGH! I've got me a bunch. Not too hard to get 'em, or maintain them. Just make sure everything is clearly spelled out to the end user. If someone be requestin' a refund... give it. Adult accounts are a bit of a pain to get but not impossoble.

E-Randy · 06-24-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chio The Pirate

YARGH! I've got me a bunch. Not too hard to get 'em, or maintain them. Just make sure everything is clearly spelled out to the end user. If someone be requestin' a refund... give it. Adult accounts are a bit of a pain to get but not impossoble.

LOL... All kinds of characters on this board!

ProjectNaked · 06-24-2005, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chio The Pirate

YARGH! I've got me a bunch. Not too hard to get 'em, or maintain them. Just make sure everything is clearly spelled out to the end user. If someone be requestin' a refund... give it. Adult accounts are a bit of a pain to get but not impossoble.

Thanks Mate!

pstation · 06-24-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicki

pstation, the difference is two-fold imho.
First you have the underwriters taking on the full volume of high-risk sites. They are called high-risk for a reason .. cb's and fraud. When someone purchases clothing over the internet there is a delivered product to back up deliveries etc. Product vendors must also post their refund policies for each buyer to see, thus it brings the risk down.

The second reason are the middlemen like the 3rd party processors. When you use an IPSP they take on part of that risk and charge you much more because of it. Having your own merchant account is much cheaper on the wallet but you will still pay more than a clothing store website

I understand how the risk is much higher when you are selling virtual goods, but wouldn't you have the pay the exact same fees should someone file a chargeback against you regardless of whether you are selling porn memberships or t-shirts? Since afaik the fees and etc of chargesbacks always get passed down to the merchants I don't understand where this extra money you pay is going towards.

vicki · 06-24-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstation

I understand how the risk is much higher when you are selling virtual goods, but wouldn't you have the pay the exact same fees should someone file a chargeback against you regardless of whether you are selling porn memberships or t-shirts? Since afaik the fees and etc of chargesbacks always get passed down to the merchants I don't understand where this extra money you pay is going towards.

You are correct however its a fact that fraud numbers are much higher in the high-risk genre, hence the word 'high-risk'. For example, many underwriters have had to bite the bullet when an unscrupulous vendor gets past them, generates a ton of sales, gets paid, disappears and THEN the cb's roll in from the fraudulent purchases.

When these types of things are more common in one type of sites/processing than others, of course their rates will be higher. The riskier the business, the higher the rates... I guess its the price of doing business *sigh*. The good news is that you don't have to pay a HUGE amount of difference if you use a merchant account instead of 3rd party lol (sorry .. had to plug it ;)

NETbilling · 06-27-2005, 11:26 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the mentions everyone. We can help in most cases and can handle all of your customer service and call center needs as well.

Thank you, Mitch Farber

YankBro · 06-27-2005, 12:31 PM

I've known people making big bucks with their own merchant account then had it spin out of control for various reasons. If it were so easy to do you wouldn't see just a handful of big merchant companies like ccbill and paycom that can maintain their accounts over the long run. Not to say that you're dumber or smarter but a lot of people with deep pockets and resources have watched their own merchant account turn into financial nightmares. My advice would be similar to other's here in that staying with with a 3rd party makes sense unless you're doing major numbers worth risking the personal exposure.

NETbilling · 06-27-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YankBro

I've known people making big bucks with their own merchant account then had it spin out of control for various reasons. If it were so easy to do you wouldn't see just a handful of big merchant companies like ccbill and paycom that can maintain their accounts over the long run. Not to say that you're dumber or smarter but a lot of people with deep pockets and resources have watched their own merchant account turn into financial nightmares. My advice would be similar to other's here in that staying with with a 3rd party makes sense unless you're doing major numbers worth risking the personal exposure.

We process for thousands of sites both adult and mainstream and every one of them has their own merchant account.

Mitch

06-24-2005, 12:16 PM	#1
ProjectNaked Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Detroit Areola Posts: 4,309	Who Here Has Their OWN MERCHANT Account...How Difficult Is IT??? I've noticed a few of the bigger players mention they have their own merchant account - so how difficult is it to maintain for a large paysite? 14% is really nipping at my ass -

06-24-2005, 12:17 PM	#2
SinSational Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,723	it's not. might be tough to get one for adult unless you are doing big numbers. contact mitch at netbilling __________________ ICQ# 273099174 - monthly specials - 2 Month Free Credit on All Plans - 100% Referrals - chris@ for details Virtual from $14.95/month, Dedicated from $149.95/month Dual-Core Xeon > 1000GB @ $149.95 \| 1500GB @ $169.95 \| 10Mbps @ $269.95

06-24-2005, 12:56 PM	#7
AmateurFlix Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 7,762	I have one from netbilling for tangible items, not a membership site. It's fairly easy as long as there's nothing wrong with your own background/credit, at least for tangibles. However, for the extra service that a 3rd party like ccbill provides in dealing with customers 24/7, setting up the site interface, etc., I think it would be foolish to try your own merchant account unless it's going to be saving you $20k+ per year, IMO. A secondary c.c. processor would probably be a much better source of additional funds. __________________

06-24-2005, 01:21 PM	#11
SMachiz Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 105	Check out http://www.merchantplus.com. They have one of the best payment gateway/merchant account setups around and are much lower in price than most others. I would think that your fees would be considerably less than 10%. Regards, __________________ Sam Machiz - V.P. Sales and Marketing - smachiz[at]voxel.net - Phone: 212-812-4194 Voxel dot Net http://www.voxel.net Offering High Bandwidth Managed Solutions and a Content Delivery Network

06-24-2005, 01:31 PM	#12
Adam-EB Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Tampa Bay, FL Posts: 393	It's actually quite easy to get a merchant account. We didn't use Netbilling to get our account, but we do use them to process with. My understanding is that they can help get you one, though. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

06-24-2005, 12:42 PM	#5
ProjectNaked Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Detroit Areola Posts: 4,309	Thanks for the responses so far - any more suggestions on who to use?

06-24-2005, 12:48 PM	#6
tigerallenyim Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fort Lauderdale Posts: 142	Yeah, High risk adult merchant accounts are very difficult to acquire: Money for one thing. Strict compliances and keeping them clean is another factor. Netbilling maybe a gateway thing, but i think they do offer that as well.

06-24-2005, 01:01 PM	#9
baycouples Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,341	It's not about the % that you pay ( you'll probably end up paying at least 10% with your own merchant account as well ) - it's about owning your own rebills. WHen you're using a 3rd party processor - they own the rebills. Owning your own client base ( rebill customers ) increases the value of your company by A LOT.

06-24-2005, 01:40 PM	#13
Danny939 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 2	I, too, agree with baycouples. I'm an Ibill survivor, and by far the worst damage was done by not owning the rebills. I've been with Paycom since Ibill's implosion, and my Paycom rep recommended me to someone, whom I'm in the process of getting hooked up with. I'll only save $1 a transaction, but owning the rebills is priceless, because I don't ever want to have "an Ibill" again. I was glad Paycom referred me, because I was getting no response to my merchant account inquiries. They probably, correctly, look upon adult as difficult, and also my dollar volume ($7.5 mo) as too low to bother with. And this coming from a site that's been in business for 8 years and a chargeback ratio of literally 1 in 1,000. On a 1 to 10 scale, I rate the difficulty, so far, as a 7. The only part of this I still don't get, but will figure out, is that Paycom will be my "gateway" and what happens if your gateway goes south? Can I replace a gateway quickly. Don't know. Like everything in this business, a lot of details. If anyone knows this detail, please enlighten me.

06-24-2005, 01:41 PM	#14
Janet Reno Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 167	it's not hard at all... if your books are clean you have nothing to worry about

06-24-2005, 01:45 PM	#15
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	Danny,if you got your merchant account seperately and not through a deal coming with the specific gateway you can replace with no problems. Usually merc.account providers force you to use their own gateway solution, in that case things are more complicated.

06-24-2005, 02:34 PM	#17
Hinc Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,577	hmm been looking for one too. Im just almost more scared of these "merchantXXX.com" sites, than i am of the third party processors....No doubt merchantsolutions, merchantboss, merchantplus or whatever theyre called may be fully legitimate. I just dont have the tools to separate good from bad - and judging from numerous threads inhere ongoingly, at least some significant number are indeed bad. __________________ webmaster @ adultlist. com AdultList.com - Directory Listings, Advertisements, Hardlinks Loasex.com - Directory and old school TGP - taking submits A few sales/opportunities: High Quality Guest Posts For Sale Network of Aged sites for sales. Get in touch on the email above for info.

06-24-2005, 02:35 PM	#18
E-Randy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 176	Running with your own merchant account is NOT an easy process. Going with an IPSP screws you in the ass if they go under. DMR anyone? I don't see Paycom or CCBill going anywhere anytime soon, but you never know. If you can handle the additional workload of managing your own account (24/7 customer service, chargebacks, rebills, inquiries, etc.) without it impacting your marketing/sales efforts, then by all means, do it. Mitch at Netbilling has always been a stand up guy and I think he's your best bet. __________________ ElectraContent.com 31 KICK ASS plugin products for $399! Massive Rods, College Girls, Panties, Lesbians, Toys and dildos, Dirty Blondes, Petite, Interracial, Sexy Housewives........

06-24-2005, 02:40 PM	#19
E-Randy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 176	Another thing to look at bro. See what type of impact switching from a 3rd party processor to your own account has on sales. You may be saving yourself from paying 14%, but you may lose sales from customers that are only comfortable buying using a company like CCBill or something. Also, I don't know about your affiliate program, but some affiliates will only work with a system that is cheat proof. __________________ ElectraContent.com 31 KICK ASS plugin products for $399! Massive Rods, College Girls, Panties, Lesbians, Toys and dildos, Dirty Blondes, Petite, Interracial, Sexy Housewives........

06-24-2005, 02:46 PM	#20
pstation Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: chicago Posts: 1,135	why are processing fees for adult so fucking astronomical for adult compared to mainstream?

06-24-2005, 03:16 PM	#21
vicki Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Deep in the heart o' Texas Posts: 1,478	Merchant accounts are NOT as hard to get as they used to be, trust me thats the one thing I specialize in lol Whether domestic or offshore the rules have changed significantly in the past year. USbased banks are drying up quickly but is still one that isn't being fined left and right by Visa and they even take startup or low-volume clients. Larger US clients simply show good past transaction history and get higher volume allowances. The US application process is very simple and US discount rates run approx 4 - 5%. Approval time is usually about 2 days from the bank then Visa takes another 2 weeks or so (I usually call them for registration info rather than waiting on all their paperwork) Offshore, EU and Asian options are readily available and the options are quite numerous. You no longer have to give every single bit of details including your underwear color to these guys as we have streamlined the application process and I guide you through all the questions and answers you might have. I tell you what documentation you will need (again, much less than in the past), you give it to me and I do the rest. Approval can usually be done from 2-3 weeks if the bank isn't backlogged, (although I have one that usually does it in 1 week). With these options, discount rates will usually range between 6.5-9% dependant on specifics of the company submitting. If any of you have questions you'd like answered please don't hesitate to call/email/icq me .. thats what I'm here for ;) __________________ If at first you do succeed - try to hide your astonishment. HR merchant accounts from 3.45% solid biz since 98 victoriakozub AT gmail.com skype: victoria.kozub \| ICQ: 74296746

06-24-2005, 03:33 PM	#22
vicki Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Deep in the heart o' Texas Posts: 1,478	Hinc, then don't use them! Use me, I've been in the adult industry since 97 and moved into the merchant account business because I saw so many of my fellow webmasters go down due to 3rd party processors. I know the industry and I know merchant accounts ;) E-Randy, times and solutions have changed over the past year. Its very easy to use a plug-in solution for 24/7 support and inquiries. The chargebacks are no more an issue with merchant accounts as they are with 3rd party billers, the difference is the fraud control. Most of the gateways that are associated with high-risk merchant accounts have all the same (if not more) fraud control options at your fingertips. As for surfers, I don't think they really 'prefer' the 3rd party, I think they just feel better seeing secured servers and the V/MC logos. As for the affiliates, I think most understand there is no such thing as 'cheat proof' lol __________________ If at first you do succeed - try to hide your astonishment. HR merchant accounts from 3.45% solid biz since 98 victoriakozub AT gmail.com skype: victoria.kozub \| ICQ: 74296746

06-27-2005, 11:26 AM	#31
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Hi, Thanks for the mentions everyone. We can help in most cases and can handle all of your customer service and call center needs as well. Thank you, Mitch Farber __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

06-27-2005, 12:31 PM	#32
YankBro Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 81	I've known people making big bucks with their own merchant account then had it spin out of control for various reasons. If it were so easy to do you wouldn't see just a handful of big merchant companies like ccbill and paycom that can maintain their accounts over the long run. Not to say that you're dumber or smarter but a lot of people with deep pockets and resources have watched their own merchant account turn into financial nightmares. My advice would be similar to other's here in that staying with with a 3rd party makes sense unless you're doing major numbers worth risking the personal exposure. Last edited by YankBro; 06-27-2005 at 12:32 PM..