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100.,......

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tedwinters

And I guess to put it more succinctly..
You haven't been able to convince ANY of the readers here...
Skillful posts that Quebec should separate, but he doesn't seem to support your stance... he just disagrees with ours...

Every other poster here disagrees with your position on separatism..... It either means that every person posting in this thread is 'stupid' as you indicate, or that your argument is flawed............................
I'm still summing your argument up as:

Separation is good for you, because you thrive on human misery....
Is that NOT correct????

painintheass

I won't debate that the federal goverment is not directly responsible for it. Save for the fact that they are aware of the situation and choose to not bring attention to it.

I have never made an economic argument. My comments have remained consistent and that is regardless of a seperate quebec or a province that is part of canada. Their situation can not become any worse. My argument has never been concerned with the rest of the country. Mostly because they are not concern with my area.

And long ago when all these sepertist threads began I stated clearly my opinion of politicians is that ALL are just legalized villians. The only people they are concerned about is themselves and their corporate friends.

As someone clearly pointed out. I'm not on anyone's side. I'm playing the same damn game the politicians play. I'm working toward my own best interests. And as I benefit I ensure my family and friends are provided for.

Thus it is a winning scenario from my perspective. Why does everyone keep expecting me to be noble about this and consider the greater picture.

IE: Sacrifice the few for the many.

And to be honest, I'm just don't see the reason why I should feel that way. My family and friends I know, some guy in Montreal or Toronto I don't.

painintheass

Oh and by the way, thank you for acknowleding that I have a point. You are a breath of fresh air in the conversation.

RawAlex

I will admit you have a point, but your point is, well, that you are hoping Quebec goes to shit so you can get girls to do porn cheap. That's a nice reason to want seperations, I guess.

Your whole "jean on the bus to montreal" thing was funny as hell... also insanely wrong on so many levels. I wouldn't suggest anyone get on the bus without money, a job, or a place to stay. You can pretty much start if you have ONE of those things, but with zero, I recommend backup and think.

Regular people without jobs in all these places are getting welfare (or should). If thye are not getting government money, they need to get that sorted out right away. Put some of that money aside each month, and start saving to be able to pay for a place in Montreal if that is the desire.

... I was going to go on and on here, but let me make it short: Jean has to take responsiblity for his own life. Can't read or write? Find someone in your community that can and ask them to help. Take the steps needed to make things better. Don't just circle the bowl waiting for the final flush... do something.

Jean, with the help of family and friends, made his own bed. That isn't a federal bed or a provincial bed, it's his own. Choices were made, efforts were NOT made, nobody took the time or made the effort to improve things, and as a result, things don't improve. "the man" isn't holding them down, they are lying on the ground and enjoying the feeling. Seperations or not seperation won't change a thing for these people, except that all the checks will come from quebec and none from canada. Quebec won't have the time for the next 30 years to deal with any of it, so pretty much seperation fucks these people over even more.

You really care about these people? Get off your ass and help. Go back and teach the languages. Set up a place in Montreal and bring down the "jean"s one at a time, give them a space to live, get them on welfare and get them into their own place... and get them to school to learn to read and write. If they can communicate well, if they want to work hard, there are plenty of places to work in the city.

Many of my friends are from china. they come here not knowing how to speak either language, they have no job and only enough money to survive a while. What do they do? Do they wallow? Do they cry? Do they get drunk every day and sit around doing nothing? Nope. They put their heads down and get to it.

One of my very best friends didn't speak a word of english less than two years ago. Today she is going to school to learn to be a "PAB" which is somewhere between nurse and orderly. It includes difficult medical stuff (understanding of bacteria, body systems, disease, mental health issues, and more). She gets between 85 and 95% on every test.

SHE DIDN'T SPEAK THE FREAKING LANGUAGE LESS THAN 2 YEARS AGO.

She will graduate to a job that pays, hmmm... 30k or so a year.

She did it. Jean can do it. But Jean don't want to, and that is the huge difference. Jean will talk about it, Jean will bitch about it, but Jean won't take the first steps to solve his own problem. He will bitch, he will moan, he will complain about "the man"... and then he will go have another beer and piss away another day.

PITA: You are proof that people can get out. Your as far out as possible. You didn't get out by blaming other people, you got out because you worked at it. Look back at Jean and the rest "back home"... what truly keeps them down? That's right - they keep themselves down.

My sister told me a story about her mother in law. She secretly had gone though her entire life not knowing how to read and write. She had always made excuses (I don't have my glasses, what does that say?) and such. One day she got into some serious trouble, and figured out (at about 60 years old) that this needed to get fixed.

She learned. She does well. She loves to read the newspaper every morning now.

She can do it. Why can't Jean?

Alex

painintheass

Because you fail to comprehend that I have been discussing particular areas of rural quebec allow me to state it much more simple.

I only care about my area and places like my area. The group of people that both the federal and provincal goverment un-officially acknowledges that lives in a 3rd world status.

But is is interesting to note that I recieved 2 emails last night.

1. From a person who now lives in the rankin inlet(nunavut) and
2.another from a man that grew up some distance from nain labrador

Both detail having lived through similar conditions. And as such, they may not be from quebec but they have my support.

Allow me to ask you one question.

Have you ever been in or seen some of the areas I'm discussing? If not, then how can you make any comment or statement claiming it can be worse.

I will say that I believe that:
a. You have never been there.
b. You don't know what the people are like.
c. You do not know what day to day life entails.

Until you do, than your claims about what conditions will be like after seperatism are meaningless.

The only time I have ever made any real comments about my education was in two posts.
a. A person dismissed me saying that he wanted to know what type of education an iliterate speratist would have. And I simply stated my university and majors.

(Of interest is he still found reason to dismiss my arguments based on the fact I did not major in business)

b. A comment to the nude men on the snowmobile and partying. A person said if I was ever out west then I would see they can party too. My comment was I lived in BC for 4 years while I was at simon fraser.

You have not been able to defeat me or my opinion with name calling, claims that my arguments are contradictory or that I do not know what I am talking about. Interesting to note you have also tried to defeat me by stating that i'm a preditor thriving on human suffering.

Since you have been unsuccesful in all of the above, you have now resorted to playing the compare academic credentials game. I'm a 35 year old woman that has two teenage boys and in control of my own situation. And unless I mis-judge my estimation of you, I believe you are an early 20's male that has enjoyed the benefit of a well supported family life.

My offer stands. If you want to meet in person and discuss all of this and other things. Not a probleme and I'll even pick up the bill for dinner. This isn't a probleme for me, I travel alot and will be back in canada. But I am not posting public links or scanning in my documents, degrees, portfolio, etc. to satisfy a discussion on a porn forum

Now you can claim victory on this point if you wish. But I am too old to play this part of the game.

Ok, I'm going to make this very clear and probably make this easier for most people to understand my perspective.

I have no loyalty at all to canada and I do not care what happens to the country as whole.

This is a very cold and ruthless thing to say but I do not care what happens to some guy in vancouver, calgary, toronto, montreal, etc. My loyalty is and always has been to my family and friends. (And yes, I do support my family and help them. But that is a personal matter and I'm not going to discuss the particulars of what I do for them)

For just over 10 years I have spent more time out of my country than in it. There are lots of other countries and I'm portable. I can just go someplace else.

And this is why I said I am not a federalist or seperatist and why skillful does not support my opinons. He understands that if federalism was to my benefit I would switch sides without a second thought.

I'm an opportunist. Nothing more and nothing less.

I pay all my bills early and conduct my affairs just like most other pronographers that visit places like the czech, bucharest, russia, korea, etc. By their standard, I pay these girls very well. But for me, it is a bargain! If montreal becomes similar for me, I'll shoot there.

RawAlex

Well, either you fail to understand the term "cause and effect" or your talking out your hat... one or the other.

What happens in the rest of Canada directly and indirectly affects those people you care so much about. If you think things suck now imagine what it's like when there isn't enough money to pave the road or fix the power lines or just about anything else you might need.

PQ finance critic release a report today that says a seperate quebec would be swimming in money "because they would stop duplications of the federal government". What they failed to mention is that it is the SAME PQ that has wasted billions of taxpayer dollars to build a duplicate system, shadowing almost all federal departments. Talk about setting yourself up well! I know how to fix quebec and make things better - get rid of all those duplicate departments, sign up for every federally paid system, and take the savings and pave the roads with gold. Legault suggested 17 billion over 5 years... can you imagine?

In the end, the PQ and their buddies have spent the last 30 years lying through their teeth, and when they get caught out, they just cry and moan and blame uncle sugar.

It's dull and boring.

Painintheass, I have you figured out... and what I see makes me ill. I am thinking of user... but my real comments are just not postable here.

Alex

tedwinters

yeah, not only does it happen in the rest of canada, it's all over the world...
And, it'll never change, doesn't matter what government is in office...
if you take the world's GDP and divide it by the world's population, it works out to less than $10,000 per person..

your friends and family are there because:
a: they're too scared to try to make it on their own
b: nobody cares enough for them to help move them into a city

Sure have.. I spent most of my summers around the Indian reserves near Pincher Creek, Alberta.. Also worked on the rigs in Northern Alberta.. maybe not quite as 'horrible' as you make your areas out to be, but still part of the '3rd world' status..

and once again, that's another incorrect assumption you've made... Myself and RawAlex have both experienced what you seem to think is 'exclusive' to you.. part of what makes you 'special'..
As for me portraying you as a predator.. well, no.. that's what you said..
You said 'if the economy fails, and people are poor, you benefit off their misfortune...'
Is that incorrect?


more failed assumptions - I'm a 28 year old male who's parents were both teachers...


And what we've been trying to say, is that even a shakeup won't help them.. it'll make them worse off.. even though they have NOTHING as you say, it'll get even worse... For the few who DO decide to leave and go to the big city, they'll have an even harder time getting jobs...
what little employment is to be found in the north will dry up...
life will get even worse if the economy goes down...


so, as I've said.. preying off the misfortune of others...

now, here is where it stands....
nobody has agreed with you.. ever..
we just banter back and forth, unable to make ANY headway in pursuading the other to see our point of view..
soooo
let's let the thread die...
we've both been reiterating our points over and over...

you care only for your family in rural Quebec, and don't care about the rest of Canada.. we understand that...
You make money when people are hurt by the economy, we understand that as well...
Our point is just that things WILL get worse for them...

painintheass

Answers to:
a. Yes fear is part of it. But fear from not knowing how to function otherwise.

b. People like you? For that matter of fact I suppose you are saying that the rest of canada doesn't care about them either. And I guess this is supposed to motivate me to be concern with what will happen to the rest of the country if seperation occurs.

Well to throw your some of your logic back at you.

1. Indian reserves are a federal probleme.
2. What made me special and the others that still live there is at the option of going home at the end of the summer doesn't exist.


So I guess you forgot these statments:
And your latest one in this post:
Or this one from your friend Raw Alex:
Don't place words in my mouth. I have never said I thrive off of human misery. I have said I will be able to get cheap boy-girl sex scenes and as such will benefit in such a situation.

Next time you might want to remember you contribution to the conversation.

Unless you are about to say that your parents were abusive my second part is most likely correct. You have enjoyed the benefit of a well supported family life.

As for the early 20s male assumption. Ok I'm off by a few years. But you clearly stated that you are still single, in school, etc.

Only time and experience can form and shape our opinons and only time and experience can test them. Perhaps after you have achieved some life experience your comments might be different. Then again maybe they won't be.

Once again, not my probleme. I own property in other countries and I can take care of my family if needed.

I'm not trying to persuad anyone. I just don't appreciate the personal assults. They were un-warranted. And if you know how any pornographer functions you wouldn't be so fast to say "I thrive on human misery."

As for the continuance of the debate.....

You see, I'm editing video footage right now and this provides for me a nice break from hours of repeated video orgasm moans and pop shots. Since I'm having a great time and it isn't really costing me anything.

You quit first.

Focus Adult Steve

I think english canada should see that it is them need quebec more than quebec needs english canada.

This is the symbols that make quebec great and english canada jelous.


You are one fucked up French FUCKER and the only thing the Quebec flag is good for is wipping one's ass

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tedwinters

Actually, I was referring to people like you... You live in France, film in Russia, and provide for your town how? Do you even pay Canadian and provincial taxes anymore??
But yeah, also people like me... Personally, I'd rather 100,000 benefit than 100...
I'd rather an entire city experience a 3% quality of life increase, than a tiny town experience a 6% quality of life increase..
But fact of the matter is, separating won't increase the town's quality of life..
you say that you won't argue economics, you just want what is best..

yet.. how can you decide what is best if you won't argue economics??



precisely... you benefit off of others misfortune...

GF/Fiancee of 10 years...
Had a 'real job' for 5 years, now in evening class to complete another degree..

So let me get this straight.. You figure the 7 years of age you have on me, provided a whole wealth of experience that I haven't had???
I guess you've never heard the tales of life around the oil rigs, and how desparate it is up in Northern Alberta, where the majority of girls are prostitutes for the rig workers, and the majority of the men drink listerine/gasoline because they can't afford beer...


Once again, I only state what you've said repeatedly..
You want Canada to separate, because you don't know what it will do to Rural Quebec, and you'll benefit because you'll get cheaper models... remember this quote:

and
or

as for 'name calling', I don't believe I've called anyone a name..
But I've seen you use
"Surely your inferior federalist brainium can process that", plus several others



The only reason I quit, is because it's quite obvious, that despite every other poster on here disagreeing with you, you'll never see logic.. I've tried to dispute you point by point, and if you remember, it was you yourself, who first called yourself a predator.. (or at least, implied that I was calling you one)....
I was just trying to summarize your argument... I won't bother trying again, cause it won't turn out any different than what I've said

1. You want Canada to go down so you get cheaper content
2. You only care about the 100 or so people you know in rural Quebec...

but fine... I've quit first.. and I know you need to say the last word, so... enjoy
Please don't create any new posts on this subject, just ressurect one of the many already existing....

TTiger

criss que je suis ecoeuré d,entendre de la foutu cochonerie de souveraineté
je veut rien savoir de ce niasage la, le PQ c'est un parti fini qui roule sur le scandale des comandite ainsi que la souveraineté..
c'est de la merde

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skillfull

sorry but i have to reply on that one

lets analyse that budget
http://www.pq.org/nv/tmp/finance_quebec.pdf

and after, tell me what is wrong with that
everything is logical and clear and demonstrate that we are better alone

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RawAlex

It's clear, it's logical, but it's full of holes you can drive a truck through.

First off, most important: It assumes no real portion of the federal debt. It assumes little or not real expenses for things like border controls, new agencies, the need for a military force, and many other things they have swept under the rug of "just some other things". You start talking full diplomatic requirements overseas, passport offices, citizenship, customs, taxation, additional police agencies, communications, air travel... the list goes on and on. There is no clear and complete list of all of those programs and all of those agencies and their actual costs to reproduce in full in Quebec.

Basically, the initial premise that Ottawa takes more from Quebec than it gives is somewhere between highly suspect and outrightly dishonest. Quebec profited as other provinces did from the huge run up in deficits over the last 40 - 50 years, and guess what, they have to be paid for. The country doesn't just run itself, the federal level isn't a bunch of fools sitting around drinking beer and burniung money in huge furnaces to keep warm. The services are there, and they cost.

This report was written backwards. The PQ decided the result they wanted, then they wrote the report to support the conclusion. It's misleading, it's dishonest, it's smoke and mirrors at it's finest, and it will certainly play well in Lac St Jean.

Alex

skillfull

its assume the real portion of the federal debt we should pay and explained who it was calculated. He even took the worst way to calculate it. All the federal expenses are calculated with the part Quebec pay/use in that. You didnt even take the times to read it, you just listened to somewhat economist in a media runned by a federalist adn taked it for the absolute truth.
I checked the whole document, looked at a couple source he use, and yeah, this report make sense.

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painintheass

Ok, you want to argue economics. Lets try this.

Yes I go to Russia and Romania and use the girls there. But many if not most of these girls have children, husbands, etc. I'm employing them and helping them fill their refridgerators.

This might be a "bargain' from my perspective but have no doubt that from theirs they are getting a substantial sum of money. And you so have nicely stated how "I thrive on human misery" but failed to acknowledge that by doing what I do I have helped to better the economic situations of many people.

I'm an employer and my business economics are simple.
1. The lower my costs are, the greater my profits.
2. The greater my profits the more I manufacture.
3. The more I manufacture the more I employ and pay others.

As for canada and not conducting my affairs in it.

1. The taxes are high.
2. The labour costs are high.
3. It is a small market.

It isn't as financially viable as what I do now.
You want me to return to canada and conduct my affairs. Then give me a reason to do so.

You can start by doing any of the following:
1. Lower my taxes
2. Eliminate film review boards
3. Lower my production expenses.

Preying on the misery of others. Or giving work to others. It's amazing but I'm certain if you ask any of the people I've employed over the past several years they would say they do the "dance of joy" when they hear I'm in town.

Personally I think before everyone points a finger at me and claims I'm an evil person for monopolizing on the problemes of the impoverished should look around their homes. How many cheap consumer electronics do you have that are manufactured in Tiwan, Niki shoes made with child labour, etc, etc.

It's like a person being against the fur industry because of their slaughter of animals but owning a pair of leather shoes.



Well, your statements certainly say you aren't doing much. And it doesn't look like you have done much either. On the other hand I have lived in several countries, over the past decade employed 100's, raised two sons, paid off my student debts, mortgages, gotten married and divorced and had a "real job" at least once or twice.

And in one of my messages I made it very clear that I support people that come from extreme poverty.

But again let me ask you if you drive a car? You purchase oil and gas and as you have just nicely stated it, there is a fair amount of abuse going on around those rigs. If you heat your home, drive a car, etc. In your example, not only are you helping to fund a factory that appears to give very little back to it's community but you are paying taxes on those oil products to a goverment that isn't rectifying the probleme.

Since you are so aware of this probleme, what are you doing to help? Or would your rather see 100's sufffer so that 1000's can benefit?

For the first part:
Well, I have already demonstrated the economics of my business model. But with that said, please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't say you were an economics major? If so, I would expect that you should be able to understand the economic benefit for others when an employer can be prosperious.

For the second part.
Now in my above statements I have made it clear that how as an employer I directly benefit individuals and their respective economies. But business still must be business and that is always the way it is going to be.

Let me re-state it in a more humanistic way for you. I'm directly responsible for the employment of many others, both casual labourers and permanent. If I do not stay focused on getting the job and fail. They end up suffering too.

Now for the third.
Do you really want to play the quote me out of context game? The above statement I made was in response to a person saying that all improvished people choose to live like that. So with that comment and the constant assult of people saying quebec'rs are drunk welfare bums, it was the "straw that broke a back."

In summation, "if you want to believe my people are garbage and look down on them. Then I get to fight back."

Well I have been called stupid many, many times and you are not guilt free.

But that said we again have the quote me out of context game and at best it is a weak attack.

Ok if we must play it.....
It was a response to this:

He signed off with an slam and I responded with very very similar words.

There have been many people that agree or disagree to varying extents on this forum. But for the most part I count apx. 3 of you that have been militant. You, CDSmith and RawAlex. Yes I have been militant but I give as good as I get and like every aspect of my life, I play to win.

And for some reason it appears to be an important issue for you that I have an large number of people patting me on the back. On most internet forums that never really occurs on any issue and it certainly won't happen on issues of quebec seperatism.

In my origional argument I didn't give enough points to dispute. (I'll avoid reiteration of my ONLY 2 statements)

As for calling me a predator... I'm sorry honey but unless you can tell me that saying "I thrive on human misery" is your way of saying, "I love you and think your beautiful." It is calling me a predator.

Yes, you got that right. I'm going to say the last word and you should be thankful because in another week I would be pms'n.

It has been a pleasure to have this dance with you.

2HousePlague

Fuck, this thread is HYSTERICAL!!

So much passion --



j-

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RawAlex

Skillfull, actually, I read it completely. Sorry, but there is not real assumption of the facts of running a country, and the assumption of debt is between glossed over and ignored.

Quite simply, Canada broken into parts isn't going to be cheaper to run that Canada as a whole. There is no logic to that. That Quebec takes more than it puts in, so at the end of the day, splitting up makes things WORSE not better.

Want to improve Quebec? Get rid of all the duplication that successive PQ governments have put in place to usurp the federal goverment at every turn. There are endless duplications that exist BECAUSE THE QUEBEC GOVERNMENT CREATED THEM!

It's insane... like hitting your head against the wall because it feels so great when you stop.

Basically, Mr Legault's assumptions start from a screwed up premise, and the report is written to meet a desired result. Major expenses are glossed over or ignored, federal debt (and the effects on the cost of borrowing that a seperate quebec would face) is ignored... and let's not even start on the costs to create a Quebec Peso... and yes I say peso because it will be an undesirable currency like many of the monies of central american banana republics. Sorry, but the assumptions, the start points, and the premise are all bogus - so the result is the result they wanted - but not valid.

Enjoy.

Alex

TTiger

NON CENSURÉ (french sorry)

MAINTENANT laissé moi vous dire pourquoi les gens comme moi en ont plein le cul de la criss de souveraineté et pète les plombs.

Ici le taux d'aide social varie entre 450 000 et 700 000 individu et le taux de chômage entre 500 000 et 700 000 ON EST ENVIRON 7 MILLION VOUS TROUVEZ CA NORMAL ? Ont la l'un des pire taux du Canada excepte terre-neuve. c'est à cause des anglais ca aussi calvaire ?


Parce que je suis parti de 0 , niet , nothing et je me suis botter le cul et j'ai fait des sacrifice et à la fin de l'année quand je fais mon caliss de rapport d'impôt je paie dans les 5 chiffres d'impôt et se malgrès que je me défonce 55 heures par semaine pour avoir un niveau de vie qui me plaît , J'en vois tous les jours qui descende dans les rue avec leur pancarte de grevé et qui chiale contre des gens comme moi et qui veulent avoir autant en travaillant 30 heures par semaine. Ces calvaire de greveur professionnel la ont souvent plus de vacance par année et une sécurité que j'aurais jamais , mais moi je m'en criss c'est mon choix sauf que eux il chiale et il chiale, chaque semaine j'en vois grêver qui veulent en avoir plus et travailler moins. Pendant ce temps je ferme ma gueule et je me fais siphonner par l'impôt. J'ai pris des risque dans la vie et j'en prend tous les semaines pour parvenir à mes fins et j'en est plein le cul de voir les gens chialer pour toute avoir sans rien faire.

Ensuite , Ca fais 2 semaine que je tousse et que je suis malade comme un cochon et pas moyen d'avoir un osti de rendez vous avec le médecin , pourtant me semble que je le pais le criss de docteur au nombre d'impôt que je me fais arraché. J'ai besoin du médecin 2 fois par année mais je suis pas foutu d'avoir un maudit rendez vous.

Ca continue , je me suis acheter un Grand Cherooke parce que l'hiver ici c'est gratter à moitiez et on reste pris partout et que y à tellement de nid de poule que j'ai péter la suspension de l'auto que j'avais avant et ben vous savez pas quoi je viens de recevoir mes immatriculation je dois payé une calvaire de pénalité parce que j'ai un 4x4 , Brise ton auto , reste pris ou paye caliss.

Ont à de la misère à garder nos professionnel parce qu'il s'en vont tous aux Canada anglais et au USa , c'est parce qu'il fais bon vivre au Quebec ca ??????

Ont à le taux de suicide le plus haut en Amérique du nord , un des plus haut taux de décrochage scolaire.

c'est à cause des ANGLAIS TOUS CA ??????????


PENDANT CE TEMPS LE PQ PARLE DE RÉFÉRENDUM A TEMPS PLEIN ET SE FOU ÉPERDUMENT DU RESTE. CRISS QUAND TA LE CANCER T'ARRÊTE DE FUMER.

ont était fort avant au Québec , ont à commencé à décliner quand tous le monde c'est mis à parler de souveraineté.

Me semblent qu'ont à des chose en criss à régler avant l'ostie de souveraineté.

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skillfull

je suis d'accord avec tout tes points
sauf un
tout ces problemes la sont a travailler apres de faire un Québec souverain, pas avant calisse. Comment tu veux qu'on règle de quoi quand on est obliger d'aller queter a Ottawa chaque tite cenne de NOTRE argent
il est la le probleme, un coup qu'on aura regagner le controle de nos finances bin on décideras ce quon en fait

et pour ton information c'est pas parce que c'est un 4x4 que tu as payer une surtaxe mais bien parce ton véhicule a un moteur de plus de 4.1litres pis que ca pollue notre air ;)

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TTiger

donc pourquoi on ne retrouve pas ces problemes dans les autres province canadiennes? maerde que l'on nous debarasse du double impot et de la TVQ

moi je crois que l'arriver des conservateur au pouvoir federal sera interessante
car il sont pour couper dans fonctionnaria et decentraliser le pouvoir de plus ci l'adq sort plus fort au prochaine provincial je crois que c'est le temps de leur donner leur chance les liberaux sont entrein de creuser leur propre tombe et les PQ c'est de la corruption all the way aussi pire que les liberaux regarde la gaspesia et le metro...

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nofx

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skillfull

on retrouve la plupart de ces problemes dans les autres provinces canadiennes
les conservateurs sont pour investir dans le militaire, on a besoin de d'autre sous-marins qui coulent tout seul et contrat d'helicopteres boiteux ?
le gouvernement ca va tjrs rester de la corruption, je vote pas PQ pcq j'aime comment y gouverne la province, je vote PQ parce que je souhaites avoir mon pays
point

autrement je voterais ADQ et dans un Québec libre je voterais ADQ

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TTiger

apres ce qui est arriver a jeff fillion et Benoît Dutrizac je ne crois qu'un quebec libre soit possible...
anyway ca me fait toujours dresser le poil sur les bras entendre QUEBEC LIBRE : libre de quoi?
moi je serais plutot pour une union economique americaine un peut come UE

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canplayer

Hey skillful read this and then argue

RICHARD LE HIR
Freelance


May 7, 2005
The Parti Quebecois has just released its financial projections for an independent Quebec.

As the former minister responsible for the referendum studies of 1995 and author of an essay published in 1997 on the legitimacy issues surrounding the question of Quebec's future in Confederation, I believe I am fully qualified to offer the following contribution to the debate.

In 1995, the Quebec government chose not to venture down this path, for two reasons. First and foremost was that the PQ was still smarting from the outcome of a 1974 televised debate during which Jacques Parizeau, PQ finance critic, was trounced by Quebec Finance Minister Raymond Garneau of the Liberals, when the subject of the just-released "Budget of Year 1" was debated.

Second, we in the PQ had to deal with the issue of how to present realistic data without providing ammunition to the other side. We chose to limit our exposure by presenting only the position Quebec would find itself in on its assumption of its share of the federal debt.

To eliminate the risk of long and protracted debates over the figures, we asked actuaries to do the report, thus avoiding the three scenarios that economists always prepare. Insofar as we were dealing with the management of public debt, which is a long-term process, our chosen course of action was perfectly justifiable. When the report was released, it received hardly any criticism.

But this time, we are dealing with an entirely different situation. No budgetary outline can be credible without sufficient provision for contingencies. PQ finance critic Francois Legault's position is that this is not needed, and that those who pretend otherwise are fear-mongering.

Sadly, matters are not that simple. You don't have to go back very far in our history to find indications of what would happen if Quebec became independent.

Over a period of more than 30 years, ranging from the late 1960s to the year 2003, Quebec had an outflow of people to other provinces. This did not occur only for political reasons, but the fact remains that politics were a factor, especially whenever the likelihood of independence appeared closer. All of us who were of voting age in 1976 will recall the anglo exodus and the impact it had on the real-estate market and the economy in general.

Consequently, it is neither ludicrous nor fear-mongering to suggest that a certain number of Quebec's English-speaking population would want to leave the province in the event of separation.

Let's suggest very conservatively that one-fifth of them would move. That means 300,000 people would leave Quebec, many of them from the most economically active segments of the economy. Those are always the first ones to leave.

When the last one had gone, after six months, a year, or three, their absence would translate into a loss of approximately $10 billion in Quebec's GDP. You obtain that figure by multiplying the number of people having left by Quebec's per capita GDP ($32,000). Again, this is a very conservative figure because it rests on the assumption that the GDP contribution of the people leaving would be average, when we actually know it is higher. Ten billion dollars is roughly four per cent of Quebec's GDP. This is just an abstraction until you translate it into everyday terms. A huge drop in residential, commercial, and industrial real-estate values (just as in 1976), companies moving out of the province (Air Canada would be among the first to go), individual and commercial bankruptcies galore, a sharp rise in unemployment in the Montreal area, a sharp drop in property-tax revenues for all municipalities in the Greater Montreal area, a drop in public service levels, and on and on.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the document just released by the PQ is a hoax.

It is deceitful, unrealistic and irresponsible and shows a total lack of respect for the intelligence of all Quebecers.

Even worse, it shows that the Parti Quebecois no longer has the legitimacy required to represent its own option.

One would have thought the experience of the federal Liberals would have served as a lesson.

Richard Le Hir is the former Parti Quebecois cabinet minister in charge of sovereignty studies.

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skillfull

je m'associerais pas avec un pays qui as bush comme président..

pour Jeff Fillion, j'écoutais souvent CHOI, mais y c'est carrément tirer dans le pied avec Sophie Chiasson...Ment calisse qui dise ski veux, mais quand le juge de dit dla fermer ecoute donc ;)

pour dutrizac, dit a tes boss que c des éapais pis attends toi pas a rester la

ca reste 2 excellent personne et jespere les revoir dans les médias bientot


libre de décider de son avenir

c'est ca un québec libre

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skillfull

yeah ive just read this letter in my newsletter

he have the only solid point against this budget
lets call it the x factor ;)
yeah this is impossible to predict
it is also impossible to know how much investment France would put in a indepandant Quebec, as it impossible to know if the USA would end up bombing themselves in 2 years... there is always place for chaos and thing impossible to predict

it dont change the fact that it worth the risk

by the way, look at who is writing this letter, this guy is now a federalism puppet and a complete joke to anyone half-serious about this question...

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canplayer

The 17 Billion dollars is a complete joke. AS IF all the rich people would continue to live in this province if seperation were to occur. The article mentions Air Canada, but there are at least 100 other multi national companies on record saying they were concerned over Quebec seperation. In other words, they are gone, and shifting their operations to another province. Of course, that can't be factored into the report since it didn't happen. Also, I'll tell you this, the majority of those living in Westmount who decide to leave run large businesses as well, I know this because I know several of them. If even a couple decided to leave, these are private individuals running offices of 100 or more employees, that would contribute to a bigger GDP loss for the province. Just the exodus of english speaking people, in the montreal region, who CONSERVATIVELY contribute 32,000 to the GDP. I say that because even the article mentions that the number is quite unrealstic if you account that most in the montreal region probably represent 1.5 times that on average. Now 1/5 of us english, tax paying citizens sounds like a lot of people leaving the province, but I assume that French business owners would decide that business would be more profitable if they also switched locations. So the number of people leaving is actually low in the article and thus GDP would really be much lower, probably in the -20 to -30 billion dollar range.

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TTiger

Landry proposes a nightmare

The Gazette

Saturday, May 07, 2005

The iron fist, and the destruction it would cause, peeked out from Bernard Landry's velvet glove on Thursday. The ultimate end game for Quebec separation, Landry confirmed, could be a unilateral declaration of independence, complete with orders from the new state to everyone in it: Don't send tax money to Ottawa any longer; send it to us.

Consider it: One way or another, separatists win a referendum. Talks on sovereignty-association break down. Landry or a successor will wait no longer. So the edict goes out: The glorious day has arrived! Quebec is free! Sales tax, income tax, all of it, must flow to Quebec City, not Ottawa!

Is your employer based outside Quebec? What would head office tell your Quebec branch's payroll people to do? Perhaps the payroll is handled outside Quebec, and head office would keep remitting to Ottawa. What would the Parti Quebecois government do then? What mechanism would be in place to integrate, and pay, federal public servants such as letter carriers or customs staff at Trudeau Airport? (That name wouldn't last long.) Would Ottawa respond by stopping federal cheques? Cancelling contracts with Quebec firms? Firing Quebecers from the federal civil service? Don't laugh; some people in rest-of-Canada would urgently demand that and more. Ugliness begets ugliness.

What a nightmare! At the end of this UDI road, lies - say it softly - civil war. Well short of that we would have business investment drying up, many anglophones and allophones leaving Quebec, the Canadian dollar collapsing, real-estate values imploding - can this really be Landry's idea of a platform to win votes?

Don't worry about it, some people tell us. Landry is just posturing, pandering to the PQ hard-liners in advance of a June vote on his leadership. Maybe so. But why would any voter want to entrust Quebec's future to a party dominated by a hard core of fanatics willing to consider almost any level of disorder to attain their utopia?

A unilateral declaration of independence, in denial of Canadian and international law and of common sense, has always been the final card in the separatists' hand. Jacques Parizeau was secretly prepared to play it within days, we are told, if he had won the 1995 referendum.

To forestall that happening next time, Ottawa passed the Clarity Act of 2000, which notes bluntly that there is no right to a UDI. Meanwhile the Supreme Court has indicated that if ever there were a clear Yes vote to a clear question about the separation of a province, Ottawa would be bound to negotiate separation in good faith.

But the ultimate split could come only by amendment to the constitution of Canada, which would first require long negotiations. If such talks broke down, the remedy would be in the Supreme Court, not in Landry's appearing on some floodlit balcony to make a declaration.

Perhaps federalists should thank Landry for invoking the UDI nightmare; the possibilities evoke serious alarm in almost everyone who considers them. Since another referendum could lead us in these directions, why in the world would anyone want to hold one?

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RawAlex

TTiger, exactly what I mean - these "happy" reports rarely if ever consider the implications OUTSIDE purely "where the money goes". You can't drop a stone that size into an economy without some truly major ripples.

Put it another way: I can easily say tens to hundreds of thousands of people will leave quebec before the deed is completely done. Many people won't want to give up their canadian citizenship, their rights, or their passports. They won't want to be the ones stuck holding property, buildings, housing, or other fixed assets in Quebec.

There are not enough people wanting to come into Quebec to make up for that outflow.

Start with real estate. Prime office space vacancy rates will shoot up as companies minimize staff and exposure in this province, relocating to "rest of canada" except for jobs completely attached to the quebec market. Having even 10 or 20% of the office space in Montreal come on the market in a short period of time would depress commercial real estate values for years to come.

Now picture those same people moving with the companies all sell their houses on the market at the same time. Plenty of sellers, few buyers except at MUCH lower prices. Picture the value of ALL private real estate holdings dropping 10-25% in a very short period of time.

Now, go one step further. Obviously the Canadian currency would be destablized by any seperation vote. I would not be surprised to see a run to sell of the $CAD which would push the value of that money down 25% or more in a very short period of time (I already have full intention to move ALL of my cash and bond holding to US dollars before the next provincial election). So now not only has real estate gone down 25% in the market, but the value of the currency it was valued in has also dropped 25%.

Now, top it off, Quebec releases it's own peso. Watch that sucker drop like a stone.

25% more?

In real world terms, the value of assets in Quebec could drop 50-70% under this scenerio. Which means everything exported from outside would immediately almost DOUBLE in price. Hyper inflation within the quebec economy would pretty much kill the place dead, dropping it down to something closer to mexico or costa rica in a hurry, except with crappy weather 8 months a year.

Extreme? Trust me, that is way less extreme than the bullshit the PQ just dumped on you.

Alex

painintheass