RedShoe

A guy at work has convinced my boss to convert our company site to a flash site.

I've asked before about flash, but always get the "Death By Flash" response from everyone.

Why?

What is so wrong with flash?
I hate it to, but that's because y'all told me to. Lately I've visitng flash sites for their tutorials, and I've seen some pretty cool shit. I'm sure Flash could easily enhance the "quality look" of a site which may help it convert better. No?


I work exclusively in PhotoShop6, PaintShopPro7, and in Dreamweaver. (I used to hand code, and it took me a while before I could get the hang of WYSIWYG).

I think I would do more flash, but vector based graphics kick my ass. I've tried to design in flash, and I was barely able to get an animated nav bar to work properly.

Am I wrong in thinking that you can only do Vector in Flash?


People straighten me out before I slip to the dark side of the industry. Please set me staright.


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titmowse

it's very simple in this impatient world of cyberspace: flash sites are cool, once they load...once they load...once they load.



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Kat - Fast

We don't use flash because it takes too long to load and uses our precious bandwidth.
Bad flash. Naughty flash.

RedShoe

There has to be something better than just animated gifs when it comes to attention getting.

If I went to a tit site, and saw these words, "10,000 tit images" and it were blinking, I would think, "ok, this site looks like every other tit site I've seen, I'll think twice before joining"

If I were to go to that same site in flash, and saw the same text, "10,000 tit images" and it were flying in, and building it self, and it had neat-o rollovers, and tour pages that would load with loading a new page, as if I were watching an actual "virtual tour", just certain parts of the page would sweep aside to reveal then next tour page... I would think, "Well this page has a better look to it, I bet I'll get my money's worth... I think I'll join"

Is my logic completely off? Are more and more people getting higher speed connections?
Should I learn flash now, so when the surfers catch up with technology, I'll be ready? Or is still a waste of time?

A year or so ago, it seemed like flash was everywhere.


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The Truth

Here's my 2 cents....

Flash is cool for mainstream sites and I'm sure it is great for a business (whatever your boss does).

There are also more and more pay sites using flash (ARS's Extreme Sexxx had flash for a while) BUT, for your basic free porn site it just isn't a smart move. You are trying to get the max amount of people to visit your site and click your links and if they have to wait they're gone.....

About 2 months ago I heard a figure on Tech TV .... approx. 3% of people on the internet have a high speed connection. The other 97% is rolling along at 56k or worse

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tenletters

And... if you're like me, your security settings prompt before allowing that kind of thing to load. I try never to allow it as alot of fuckers like to change shit on my pc.

theWatsonian

Message loading. Please wait...

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Pornshare TGP - Webmasters submit here.

-=HUNGRYMAN=-

A GOOD flash designer can keep the filesize low, and have the site start to play less intensive flash stuff as soon as the surfer hits your site, while the really intense shit is still loading, meaning your surfer is entertained right away without having to sit and watch a preloader bar !!!

I have 2 excellent flash designers on staff (and no I'm not talking about that Tennis guy either ...LOL), so if anybody wants to see samples, hit me up on ICQ ... (/end of shameless plug)

Flash used to suck donkey dicks ... but now a few kids have taken the time to get REALLY good at it !!

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The Black Sheep of the Boneprone Family
I like to rub HERTURN on my nipples

theWatsonian

Fucking around aside, Hungryman is right. You really need to get something small playing while you load the interesting stuff.
I think flash will finally come around when people start using it better. Remember, not too long ago it wasn't uncommon to see somebody surf the net with images turned off in their browser. Things change.

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Pornshare TGP - Webmasters submit here.

TheFLY

This may be my next field of exploration -- dynamic Flash content...

Sadly Flash froze up my entire fucking computer last night -- while I was playing with some really nifty Flash buttons... I can't afford for even 5% of my surfers to crash.

I still avoid Javascript for its potential to crash the browser. My guess is that most free-sites in 2005 will still be straight HTML

Unless Gates comes out with an OS that doesn't crash... Maybe a crashproof Amiga will come back from the grave by then -- who knows haha...

[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 12-08-2001).]

magnatique

javascript only crashes computer when it's wrongly coded..

I mean..

if you do loops, and you get an infinite loop in there by mistake, for sure it'll crash..

it's like any programming... off course javascript is lesser programming than C, but wrong coding will cause crashes..

ElvisManson

Annoying...Most flash that I have seen is really overdone....that is if you have the patience to for it to load.

I have a frind that works for Macromedia in Frisco that would argue the hell out of this point ( for obvious reasons) but most of the stuff he and his friends make bores the crap out of me.

Used in a very minimal or limited way it can be an effective marketing tool. Most designers go overboard and ruin the effectiveness.

just my $0.02

yys

In about 2 months I will show you a site thats under development that is just that and will blow away all other flash sites that have ever been made. Even http://www.2advanced.com . These guys actually know its coming and offered this person a large chunk of change to pack up his ideas and designs and work for them.

TheApostate

that 3% are webmasters

pornsuite

If you guys knew how to use flash you wouldn't have such loading problems. sometimes I feel flash pages load much faster than conventional HTML pages, it all depends on your action script and design capabilities.

pornsuite

2advanced is a rip-off of gmunk.com and vir2l.com version after version after version! still looks cool though.

FATPad

Holy crap...I knew it was low but didn't think it was that low.

TheFLY

Yes, but what is "wrongly" coded is determined by what browser you are surfing with :p

Hehe...



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TheFLY

damn flood control hehe...

[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 12-08-2001).]

corvette

There is no way that it is 3%, look at all the people being affected by the cable modem crisis last week. 3% of people that have EVER been on the internet might have used cable modems, a higher % of people that regularly surf the net(and want good fast porn) pay the extra $10-15 per month for broadband...i have heard and believe estimates of 15-20%...

Freeway

I'm not sure about the Flash question either but, Take ck out this porn flash tour htt://www.sex.tv it really is great. BTW does anyone promote these guys yet?

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Freeway

I guess that would be a good way to find out if flash sells try and sell sex.tv. That would tell you

yys

Well I have no doubt that large companies borrow from other peoples ideas I'm sure Eric Jordan would disagree with you on whether he ripped of his designs from those two sites

pornsuite

Umm Ok, lets not say ripoff. overly inspired? yes.

kittykat69

I am just lookkign at that site agan and i think a flash site would be great for that compnay - it just sort of fits well with the whole 'SPFX ' theme..
anyway wouldn't most ppl who visit the site be potential clients - I mean it woudldn't really be joe average surfer - so I think they would be willing to wait the extra time - and like Hungryman said - if you do it properly , you should be able to keep it tight@

Wilber

my biggest concern has always been that GoogleBOT and such spiders don't speak Flash.

Yea, you can build html around the *.swf but all the wasted text that the bots could have picked up....it's a shame.

pornsuite

*sigh* thats old news man, welcome to flash 5 were you can include all the text used in your movies in tags automatically.

RedShoe

I agree that it can be used as a good marketing tool. In fact isn't the adult.com banner a flash?

But then I've heard it argued that surfers don't click banners anymore. (or at least not as much as they used to)

I think Kitty is right, for my boss' site it should be fine. But for fast loading porn, plain 'ol text, and thumbs works best. Server it fast, and highly compressed. (after they sign up of course)

Hey...
(for you dialer junkies) why not build your sites in flash. Since it takes so long to load, you could be making money. Oh wait, is that unethical? But then do you care?



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kittykat69

I don't think you can use the words "Dialers" and "care" in the same sentance - it's an oxymoron :P

bhutocracy

For paysites - which is where you'd bother using it i don't know how much HTML text you see anyway... it's all integrated into bitmaps - ie what the swf would be replacing - i for one at least, don't see shite on front or tour pages that wouldn't be just as easy to add around a swf. Macromedia is working with the search engines at the moment to get *all* flash content indexed.. F6 will hold a few surprises too.. (thank christ they're finally integrating video properly)
If you see sites that aren't loading quickly then they're poorly designed.. OR the bloody client has asked for too much and theres not a lot you can do about that when they want their whole frikkin summer product line in the first 5 seconds.. you just shut up and take the money... you can give them good counsel and try to steer them away from things like flash intros, but when they're obstinate i have no problems taking the lucre to produce a slower than wanted site. For all your stewardship you have to accept sometimes that the customer is right - even though they wouldn't know a good webpage if it had nasal sex with them.


[This message has been edited by bhutocracy (edited 12-08-2001).]

bhutocracy

I have to state flash would be a silly thing to construct a member page from - im kinda assuming we're talking fronts and tours here.. and they'd be intelligent sites - where you wouldn't have to choose to enter a flash or html one - it would be tightly integrated, with flash areas showing as bitmaps for those without the plugin.

Amputate Your Head

Not to mention the time involved in creating decent Flash intros and such.

My take is basically, why bring a wrecking ball when a hammer will do the job.

Flash is nice for big fancy mainstream sites, corporate bigshots who wanna impress their competitors, and esoteric artsy fartsy weirdness design-site "Look what I can fucking do" type shit....

porn surfers do not give a rat fuck about all that bullshit. The want the porn. And there's no reason a good ol' fashioned well designed paysite tour can't accomplish that rather effectively. I honestly think that 99.9% of the surfers could care less about the fancy Flash intros and shit. If it looks good, new, & fresh and is eye-catching... they'll buy. But no one want to wait for an entire site interface made from Flash to download.

Maybe this will change over the coming years... but right now... I don't see any reason to spend a week designing some state-of-the-art Flash porn site, when I can make a standard site in half the time.

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Nedder

Flash is all about balance. I think there is a place for flash in any site, but its when the designers are in it to please only themselves and their artistic integrity, that it gets overdone.

There are flash banners on GFY that grab my attention (you've seen the guy getting bent over and F'd by the sponsor? I laugh at that one every time) but when you have to wait for a large animation to load, one that someone will say "WOW NEAT" the first time, and click "Skip Intro" on all subsequent visits, it becomes a liability rather than an asset.

Want to print out a FLASH site page? That can be a bitch unless they code it right. Flash sites don't have alot to spider either.

Anyway, I think Flash is great for SMALL bells and whistles, attention getting SMALL graphics, etc. Throwing 10 of the best Flashkit demos on your site, including a Flash interface (UGH!) would be a definite ball and chain, IMO.

Ned

Amputate Your Head

Hint: Flash is perfect for menu systems.

(that's about all I would use it for at this point.)

bhutocracy

full flash sites and porn just won't mix until every last fucker has a broadband connection... oh yeah.. and the plugin.

i absolutely loathe flash intros, but as a sales pitch to join, when done properly they can really only enhance whats going on. - it definately can't hurt (and im not talking fullscreen flash tours - or 'Swish' wavy text either.)

bhutocracy

as long as they aren't overdone, and provide a visual reaction for the user in 1/10th of a second - the time it takes for a user to feel that something is responding naturally to their interaction.

Amputate Your Head

menus can be made so that the user never even knows it's a piece of Flash... and they can load extremely fast because of the compression that Flash has... and can hold many more behind the scenes features that html can't.... I'm not talkin' about flashy menus designed to draw attention... I'm talking about raw functionality. Flash menus can be very powerful. If it is visible to the user that it is an obvious piece of Flash geared toward *impressing* them... then it has defeated it's own purpose by shooting itself in the foot.

pornsuite

Come on now...

If you want to learn flash in a day to start building your sites then good luck. but if you already know what you are doing you can create a full flash paysite quite fast plus make it load fast and better looking than a static html page.




[This message has been edited by pornsuite (edited 12-08-2001).]

Wilber

Tags...you'll spam the spider on tags. The spider knows the difference between a tag and an alt. 3-5(depends on the crawler) same keys per tag allowed b4 you spam the bot and become black listed.
Spiders are way more intelligent than Flash or some freehosts.

pornsuite

If you are still using flashkit.com demos and can't come up with your own scripts do not attempt to do a full paysite in flash.

Amputate Your Head

I'm not questioning the power of Flash to make some killer stuff.... I know it can. But what I was getting at is that I don't believe that a typical porn surfer is all too interested in watching some intro fly around for 5 minutes so he can go... "Oh cool...."

They wanna see what you got... reasonably quick... click their way through the tour, and either pull out the cc or not... and move on.

I know personally, every time I see a Flash intro loading... the first thing I do is look for the Skip Intro link. Cuz I just don't have the time. Regardless of how nice it may or may not be.

Now apply that to a guy with a hard on in his hand.... no way he's gonna sit down and take the time to watch the fruits of your Flash prowess. Unless maybe you got someone getting fucked in the pooper, right there on the front page for him to watch.

bhutocracy

RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!! lol 'bout time i met more flashers with this attitude

pornsuite

oh, I understand, I personally don't dig flash intros no matter how cool they are. IM talking about a full paysite in flash.
I,ll probably work on that one of these days and let you be the judge

Amputate Your Head

I think Flash kicks ass. Macromedia really outdid themselves when they created it. It's got some serious power. But it seems to me that Flash guys get lost somewhere in the learning process, because it does take a long time to learn to do it well, and it seems that alot of guys come out the other side trying to make the biggest impact with a "Look how fucking awesome this Flash it!"

And it is awesome. But it shouldn't be the main focus of it. Unless you're doing a Flash tutorial or something.

Flash should integrate seamlessly with the site. It should be a tool. Much like Javascript, or other coding languages are used. You don't make a site for selling porn that has it's primary focus on how cool the javascript is that you used.... why would you do it with Flash? It's not about the Flash... it's about the porn. Or whatever you happen to be selling.

I think this is where alot of guys go wrong. It took a long time to learn to use the tool.... and they want everyone to know how good they are.... which is fine.... if you're selling your Flash skills and not something else with it.

This is why, when I was talking about the menus up there.... for most applications, the end user should never even realize he's looking at a piece of Flash. It should be seamless to the site.

But..... what the fuck do I know anyway...

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bhutocracy

i do have to say though... ONE positive thing about doing a full paysite in flash would be the easy on the fly user-tracking.. making it easier to give somone more of what they want, or at the very least subtley gearing it towards their unconscious tastes in colours and content, like if they have a tendency to click on blue coloured links about lesbians then hey presto.. your site takes on more shades of blue and throws up more lesbian pics in the periphery/structure design.. nothing you can't do with anything else.. it's just easier to tone links/text and whatnot on the fly in flash.. and have a simple selection of loadmovies that are triggered by preferences.. hell you could even track the movements of their mouses to see what they might have been interested in but didn't click on.....

bhutocracy

amp i 100% agree with you.. my personal push with flash at the moment is smart use and seamless integration..... heheh hell i've even read that fuckwit jacob's stuff about human interaction and response times to try and get away from heavy flash garbage (well, when it's not warranted)

Amputate Your Head

Well, I don't know if any of that helped you Redshoe... we kinda got to rambling a little bit down here... but I think a company site would work very well in Flash. Just don't go overboard with it.

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RedShoe

Thanks AMP and all, y'all.

Like I said I did some navbar stuff on the site already but I suck at flash, and I've never really been happy with the site to begin with. Maybe it's because I really wanted to much more colorful with it.

Kevin, (my boss) wanted it simple. The site gets a fair share of compliments so I can't complain.
http://KevinYagher.com
Our company site. KittyKat69 really seemed to dig it.

His book, just came out and he wants a single page ad. Which I told him I could do, but now I think he wants that ad page to be all flash, which doesn't make sense. We're not even selling the book. He wants me to link the ad to amazon.com (I think I'll use my own ref code, not his. LOL )

Now that he's seen more flash, I think he's going to want his whole site flash.

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bhutocracy

hey it's not too bad , one thing i might suggest though is increasing the hit area on the nav items - there are large horizontal areas between items that aren't hotspots.. what this means is that on say, 'filmography', when you try to go diagonally to 'FX Resume' you hit one of these areas and flash considers it a roll-off telling your subnav to go to it's finishing sequence.. increase the hit areas to fill these areas more - the user should be able to go from selected element to desired element in the shortest possible distance (ie diagonally on the larger subnavs).. a good example of bad implementation of this is the avnonline left hand navs.. even though it's not in flash you can see what i mean..

also i'd take a look at the dimensions of your layout.. unless specifically targetted, most designs should be for a 800x600 res.. which of course translates into a design of 770 x 430-470 depending on browser - AOL needs 430 but i tend to go alittle higher into the 470 end.. the width of you site is 783 and even though nothing important is being obscured at 770 - 50% or so of the users will be getting horizontal scrollbars at 782 pixels wide which can probably be fixed with your table settings.. also the initial text in the main area won't be easily read for that same 50% of people as the bottom line will most likely be cut off.. these are small things but when you think about the fact that the average user is going to have to scroll down to see the images and then scroll back up again to the nav to get more you can see there is a little issue with user satisfaction.. but then again.. if they're too stupid to put their res at 1024x768 as most monitors are capable of they kinda get what they deserve.... you'll notice all paysite front and tours fit the above specifications because every single user is important..



[This message has been edited by bhutocracy (edited 12-08-2001).]

RedShoe

bhutocracy, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you know why I don't like the site.

My boss is reeeeeeeealy weird when it comes to computers. He knows fuck all about his piece of shit crapintosh, and even less about the internet.

He made me build the site based on how it looked on his computer! And that opening text? WTF is up with that? It's just big bold ugly red text! I wanted a really cool logo or collage there. He didn't want that.

I explained to him all about settings, and all that. But he didn't seem to give 2 shits about what I had to say about it.

So now that he wants flash he's listening to my good friend that also doesn't know how to design sites. And I'll be the one learning flash.

I think for what he wants it would be better in regular html.

Oh well, I get paid by the hour. LOL





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