I was answering your question with a question. You wanted to know how Vivid, Suze Randall, Hustler, Score-Cash, etc. etc. have given in to the demand on the internet for their content -- affiliate programs are not just a way to make money -- it's a concession that they are making to the public demand. Do you really think these big companies want to condescend -- to cower to our level? Do you think they want to throw parties for us? They know they have to. They need us -- because the internet is the future. Business practices have changed. Look at how many business books were published about Amazon, CDNOW, and Hotmail -- how they made every customer a reseller. The internet is driven by individuals -- the webmasters -- the fans... Ask most webmasters -- they were fans of online porn before this was a business. I remember people downloading Sports Illustrated swimsuit pics off my BBS in the 80's! Did I make any money doing that? No. It was fun. The internet is not just about dollars. It is driven by people.


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[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 11-18-2001).]

Fly,

first off, if you are not making a profit, or selling pics there is no copyright infringement, so for fans to trade pics among each other is not a problem

I know someone will bring up Napster, so, Napster made money with the advertising done on their site which provided a vehicle for trading music.

As far as whether or not Hustler has a problem dealing with webmasters, I think for the millions we bring, they will sink to our level without too much problem


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see me for free hosting of movie galleries, your domain, no banners, full FTP

how do you all know it's APIC?

Jesus told me.

http://www.dinf.ne.jp/doc/othr/dwe00...we00123g13.jpg

A cautionary note: APIC can shut a site down the way anyone else can - by complaining to the upstream provider. You just do a traceroute on the offending site and you can find out right away who the providers are. For example, my sites are hosted by Strictly Hosting, which has been in the adult biz for many years. But upstream a bit from them is ATT Canada. Those guys aren't in the porn biz, they're in the Internet biz. They don't care about any of their clients as much as they care about keeping their connection to the Internet. If APIC complained to strictlyhosting about something I had on one of my sites, and strictlyhosting wasn't responsive, they could keep complaining upstream until they found someone who responded. And then it would roll downhill until it got to me.

This is an interesting change for the porn biz. I've been in porn one way or the other since the late '70's, and back then it was quite common for video companies to steal competitors' loops and put them together to make their own videos. Courts wouldn't enforce the copyright because they didn't (and still don't) have any interest in protecting porn producers. Even today, if I found some footage from a video I made on somebody else's tape I probably wouldn't have any recourse. But if I found my pix on somebody else's site I actually have a way to do something about it now.

From a medium sized tgp's last month;

"your pics are fine... but all that jibberish at the bottom, clutters up the gallery... try removing it and resubmitting"

The jibberish was the 'pics are licensed and conform to usc 2257... copyright etc etc' notice

I wonder if the reviewer might rethink that particular rejection... in light of... http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif

Pretty fascinating stuff... I was told that these unlicensed pic hunters even have the power to shut off DNS service -- so that sites w/ unlicensed pics hosted in foreign countries aren't even safe... Is this true?

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Yeah, the good old days LOL Half the pornstar sites on the web at that time were just saving my pics, and they usually didn't bother to change the file names! And some of those high priced CDs were as legal as scanned magazine pages. It is a lot easier these days. Plenty of places to buy pics.

That Raquel Darrian program - those guys would surf our link sites and then either shut down the fan sites, or make them run her banners. They did a good job of killing her heat. She used to be the hottest woman on the Web, now she's nothing compared to Jenna Jameson, or Sylvia Saint. Lots of images of those two out there, and it fuels the demand.

By the way, I found out about Suze Randal's pics4clicks program from Steve Easton of APIC. And he also told me about Ounique. I always thought he was cool to deal with, as long as you didn't freak out over his first e-mail.

None of that is true - in fact - if someone attempts to remove your site - without following the law - THEY ARE LIABLE FOR DAMAGES:
http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/dmca.pdf

That is a summary of the law - read around 12 - 14.

Basically, to shut down your site - they must certify in WRITING under the penalties of perjury - that your site is infringing to your upstream provider. If they lie - or make a mistake - they are liable for your lost income.

You must be notified - and then you have certain rights - if you own a TGP - you are supposed to do the same thing - the copyright owner certifies in writing that one of your links leads to a copywrited site. You take it down and tell the person that submitted it so they have a chance to respond and defend themselves. The TGP is protected - as long as it receives the required notification. You are 100% protected if you do business this way. You DO NOT NEED ANY PROOF UP FRONT to protect yourself.

I would be happy to write up a summary of the law and exactly what must be done by link owners and the like, but nobody seems to read my posts anyway http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif If people want it - I will do it.

The laws on this are 100% clear.

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David Lace Content - Highest Quality Teen Content
ConversionCash.com - Make Money off your WebTV Traffic

This is crazy!!
Whats next?
No porn on tv?

Yeah, they fucked it up for Racquel... They shut down most of her fan sites... Racquel was avoided like Alyssa Milano. After everyone switched over to the few lame and very small pics that they released to us -- they decided to cheat the webmasters out of affiliate money -- then the site totally died.

there is porn on tv? ah shit! no wonder sales are down . . . fucking Fox Network strikes again, first they take football away from NBC, and now this http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/frown.gif



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see me for free hosting of movie galleries, your domain, no banners, full FTP

Chris, put yourself in the shoes of a smaller host, which would become liable by keeping you open, to up to 100 000$ per violation/infringment, the money he could lose is alot more then the site will probably ever use in bandwith. They will not take such a chance.

It's all nice on paper, but in _real_life_ it's alot different.

It is a little stupid....

when I was first starting out... I surfed the bikini sites, and noticed all of these pics with copyright ****** on them and thought that it was a little funny seeing them posted on all of these free sites

so I emailed the company and asked them if they were licensed, to be used by these webmasters or were they being used illegally?

Then I asked if he would allow me to use some pics in exchange for a link back?

They said that 99.9% of all the pics I saw of theirs on the web were stolen.

Thay also said yes they would allow me to have some pics in exchange for a link back.

I never took them up on the offer, but it goes to show you that they were pretty cool about it http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/wink.gif

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$$ DIRTY GOLD $$ Revenue Program
JackThumbsTGP - - - VideoKAT-ViDeOpOsT
- Post Gallieries - - - - - - - Trade Traffic -

my nuts itch.

Wizdom,

I am not sure I get what you are saying. Small hosts are supposed to follow the law just as much as big hosts. I was refering more to TGPs/Links lists - as that seems to be what most in here are more involved with.

There is a clear cut, easy to follow, plan to take when something like this happens. The law basically gives you immunity if you follow this plan. Why would even small hosts/TGPs/Link Lists not want to follow it? It is fair to everyone the way it works. All you have to do is follow a couple of steps and put a link on your site. It makes your site look professional - and the fact that you are willing to follow the law, in and of itself says something.

The law says to take it down IF THEY SEND YOU THE CORRECT NOTICE. If they don't YOU HAVE NO LIABILITY.

The DMCA is not only there to protect copyright owners, but to give a roadmap on how things should be handled. It is also there to protect hosts and sites that innocently link to infringing material.

All I was trying to point out - is there already is a precise step by step method to take when handling these types of situations.

This seems to be an issue that has raised everyones dander, but despite the fact that there is already a settled way to handle it - no one seems to care. I don't know why I bother looking these things up...

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David Lace Content - Highest Quality Teen Content
ConversionCash.com - Make Money off your WebTV Traffic

Slutmaster,
You haven't got a clue. The reason there is so much bogus info out there is these boards.
Courts aren't allowed to base the law on the subject matter. Hundreds of porn copyright cases have already been tried in courts everywhere, and the copyright owners win.
Compilation videos were made from aquired rights, which is what all video companies did and still do. It's called selling ansillary rights. The deals are done before the videos are even made.

SLUTMASTER???

You are full of ??
Porn cases are making case law in every federal and state court in the country. Copyright is copyright.
AND the video producers sell ancillary rights to the companies who make those compilation tapes.

BONEPRONE,
according to APIC, you were busted several times?

It's always the thieving little parasites that wheenie whine on the boards.

If it wasn't for APIC, there would be no new content being produced. There would be no trade shows, which are 75% content producers.

All you TGP sites would be dead because they would all have the exact same crap. Not that they don't now.

AND there wouldn't be any rev sharing programs to pay your sorry asses.

lol.
I wish I had saved the letter.

I was in trouble I believe twice with APIC or some group similar to them.

One was a letter from them or some group like them telling me a gallery I had used several images that were property of someone. The someone was a someone other than the someone who gave me the images to promote their pay site. (yes not only tgps have stolen content, many pay sites do also and give it away as free content)

The other time was a sloopy mistake in their part. They wrote me the typical "you have unlicneced pics" letter and which images they had in mind. They said the images belonged to Suze Randall. However the images were not suze randall, and were "fresh photos" images I had a licence for. They had made a mistake and fucked up in sending me, and my webhost this letter since it was not a suze randall pic. I told them they were in fact fresh photos images I had bought for a large chunk of change and had a letter from greg at fresh photos telling em to contact Brad Shaw if there were any problems.

Apic realized the mistake and thanked me for correction. I was however shocked over the trigger happy which hunt tactic they pulled, but luckly it was only a few phone calls and emails out of my way to get it squared up.

All in all, if you work with APIC and explin the situation, or remove the images at hand everything will be fine. Its the people who ignore their shit, or tell them to fuck off that fall into the trouble of getting a site shut down.

Apic doesnt shut sites down over night.
It takes almost a dozen warnings, and non compliances until it resorts to such measures..

So for those of you worried that you will be shut down over night with no warnings you can rest assure. But if you do have illegal pics, its really just a matter of time until you find yourself in the APIC mess so take care of it before it even leads to this shit to avoid the hastle.

And thats the Bottom line cause boneprone said so.

This is an interesting thread. On the other threads you see people complaining that there's too much free porn and it's hurting business. In this case, some people are arguing piracy is necessary to generate business.

With all the talk about conversion rates ... I wonder if anyone has stats on pirates ... LOL. There's probably some money there but, on the other hand, these people ARE freeloaders ... LOL

As someone who produces her own content, I believe some piracy is good for business, but it has to be controlled. If the piracy is out of control, you WILL lose money. I know of one amateur who's losing at least $50,000 a month because of it.

But APIC and after the fact legal threats are not the solution. You gotta keep people from copying it in the first place --- or at least make it a tremendous hassle for them.

That's why I focus on video --- since you can still protect that if you know what you are doing. I lift all my pics from video since the piracy potential doesn't make the film, developing and extra costs worthwhile.

And I use programs which now split the pics into several pieces so that if they're pirated --- it's a real pain in the ass to try to put the pics together and steal them.

I often wonder about people who say piracy is so great. I wonder if they've spent a lot of time producing something just to see it get ripped off in droves.

Chances are they haven't experienced it because when you do, it completely changes your perspective and how you do business.

[This message has been edited by erotictrance (edited 11-19-2001).]

And yet they still whine -- and yet these boards still exist. Sorry to tell you but BBS has been around since before the first IBM PC rolled off the assembly line in Boca Raton -- and they very likely be around until armaggedon. Suprise -- people like to communicate -- they like to *share* -- it's a necessary function of humanity. Are you human?

False. Content was being produced before APIC. There were pics of naked chicks on the walls of caves (that's as far back as I need go). Why do you think most people in the content biz shoot on slides? These images go into print also. If APIC and copyright vanished entirely there would still be hundreds of thousands of gorgeous women in the world and I can guarantee you that their pics would be on the internet (I would put them there). People would still be building picture sites -- there would be just as much traffic -- if not even more -- and the revenue would still come in through other sources even without your precious affiliate programs. Eyeballs are eyeballs. Eyeballs = $$$

Before there were affiliate programs -- there were other ways to make money. A friend of mine in '95 was getting paid $1 per referral from porn traffic to a software company.

Don't misinterpret me -- I'm all in favor of protecting copyrights -- I'm just as greedy as the next guy -- BUT -- the REALITY is that copyrights will never be totally protected. There are many idealists here that whine and complain about free content -- they don't seem to get it into their brains that the universe is not made up of binary yes's, no's, good's, and bad's -- forget about either/or -- try either/both. Look at all the hypothetical considerations that are in this thread? This is good stuff! ;)

Comdex? Hello? Anyone home? Ever been to one of the old ham radio festivals? Hahaha...

Oh, so I suppose if APIC wasn't here -- all the cameras in the world would magically disappear. AHahaha!

False. I can sell anything on my website. Sorry to inform you -- but the entire world economy does not revolve around APIC and porn affiliate programs.


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Quote - TheFly

People would still be building picture sites -- there would be just as much traffic -- if not even more -- and the revenue would still come in through other sources even without your precious affiliate programs. Eyeballs are eyeballs. Eyeballs = $$$

False. I can sell anything on my website.

Unquote


A lot of what just might happen in the future hinted here. Porn Traffic has many uses.

I think you are indirectly putting words into my mouth -- but as long as you are going to take the piracy angle -- what is the end result of online piracy?

A proliferation of sharing of something over the internet... Why does piracy exist at all?

When Bill Gates was in college, he was the first person to code a basic interpreter for the Altair... He was charging $70. He hardly made any money -- the tapes of his code were stolen at a convention by some angry hackers. Bill Gates was pissed off -- he whined and moaned in the trade magazines -- everyone laughed at him. Another programmer came out with a BASIC and charged only $2 -- it was easier for someone to pay the $2 than it was to steal the code. The programmer that charged the $2 made a hell of a lot more money than Bill Gates -- several people even sent more than $2 with thank you notes! Do you think Bill Gates learned a valuable lesson there? Hell yes.

Who said this? Did anyone say piracy was great? My main point is that the internet = sharing... That is why it has become so popular. Everyone is bitching and moaning about copyrights -- don't they realize that nobody would pay for internet access if there wasn't a lot of free stuff?! Hell no.

Wouuld anyone use ICQ if it wasn't free? Hell no. Would anyone use email if it wasn't free? Hell no. Would anyone be on GFY if it wasn't free? Hell no.

Give me a fucking break -- you all pretend like you've inherited the Earth -- like it's your God given right to deserve $32,768.00 for your licensed porno pics... and if anyone copies your pics -- then you are losing $12,345.00. Get real.

Go Fuck Yourselves.

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Fly ... I think you're overreacting to my statements a bit ... which, by the way, were not specifically addressed to you ... just piracy advocates in general ...

I agree that quote "piracy" in the context you mentioned (the Bill Gates example) can be very good ...

And that some piracy in general can be very good for business ... particularly as a promotional tool ...

BUT ... if it gets to the point that the piracy is out of control ... and everything on a site is available for free elsewhere ... then it's obviously bad for business ...

This is quite common with small amateur sites that don't protect their stuff ... and all of their content is easily available for free elsewhere ...

Even if only one percent of the pirates were paying customers instead ... those sites would be making tens of thousands more than what they are making now ... the flip side being that's how much they're losing ...

But people obviously are not going to pay if all of the content is free ...

That is my only point ...

[This message has been edited by erotictrance (edited 11-19-2001).]

Interesting concept here. Pay for your content up front or PAY for it on the back side.

Once again I don't get why Chris R isn't tending to his thriving legal practice instead of hanging out on adult webmaster chat boards tho...

I hope they close down all tgp's - killing the whole fucking industry.
Ratios are way down for everybody because there is so much free porn on the net.
Fuck tgp's
Go Apic

Hell yes. And why do you think Lensman bought Adult.com??? !!!

Hahahaa!!!



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Funny it only takes 4 lines to make a hella lotta sense.

Good to see APIC shutting down these thieves. We are a major $ supporter of APIC, and based on what I have seen over the last week, going to send them some more funds today!


I could spend all day every day going through TGP's finding people illegally using our Fresh Photos content. Would love to see teh TGP's exit stage left, although I know that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Brad, I am glad to hear that you are finally cracking down on fresh photos stolen content on the web.

I was telling Greg about it a few weeks back.
Noting pissed me off more than buying a CD set and then having see it all over on these free hosts and tgps where people have ripped it off.

Thumbs up.

How about people that bounce checks to you for content Brad? What would you like to do to them? http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/wink.gif

test

He was being sarcastic.

How will shutting down TGP's "kill the whole fucking industry" ???

Yeah that makes a hella lotta sense.

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Hey I only bounced one check to Brad.
It cleared the second time around!



[This message has been edited by boneprone (edited 11-19-2001).]

I bet 99% of people here have full mp3 albums on their HD that they didn't buy. They burn it on cd and listen for free. This is PIRACY... but everyone is doing it, so who cares? I have 1000 mp3 albums on my HD. Do you fucking believe I bought them all, or that I would if the mp3 format didn't exist? Hell no. 1000 X $15.95 = $15,950. I pirated for 16k, artist lost 16k in revenues... yeah sure, in your dreams.

Shutting down TGP's kill the industry... yeah, kind of.

TGP's = LL = AVS = SE

Okay, now tell me how you'll get your traffic without TGPs, LLs, AVS and SE. It's all the same fucking concept. Don't worry, TGPs, LLs, AVS, SE and the internet will never die.

If your not doing illegal business...
Then you have nothing to worry about..
If you own images...you have the right to have them protected...this is what APIC does.

You only need to fear them if your stealing pics...what else needs to be said?

Humbolt
Library of Thumbs

Chris, yes, that what I'm saying, once they get a letter of complaint from apic.

you get this (quote)

[url of alledge infringment removed by me]

THIS NOTICE IS PER THE ?DIGITAL MILLENIUM COPYRIGHT ACT? of 1998
http://arl.cni.org/info/frn/copy/band.html

Steve Easton is the director of APIC-Worldwide, NOT an attorney. On behalf of the owner of the exclusive right to the material at issue in this notice, I hereby state that I have a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the owner, its agent, or the law. I hereby state, under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States, that the information in this notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is being infringed as set out in this notification.
(end quote)

If the webmasters say that what he does it legal that he is just linking to copyrighted materials from other people then you have some very interesting choices to make, because you become liable just as him if you still keep him up.

Go take a class in reading comprehension and maybe you'll get it.

He didn't say getting rid of tgps would kill the industry, he said tgps are killing the industry.

Indigo ...

I'm not saying that the total amount of pirated material is the total amount of lost sales ...

But even if you figure only one percent of those pirates would have purchased material but didn't because they got it for free ... you're still talking serious amounts of lost sales ...

I estimate one amateur --- who's particularly popular with pirates --- is losing anywhere between $4,000 and $40,000 a month ...

I base that upon the fact that 20,000 people viewed pirate posts for downloads of her movies just in the past month ....

Views that were listed on just two pirate boards, and that's a small conservative sample --- I'm not counting other boards where she's pirated a ALOT MORE than that ...

Since she charges $20 a month membership ... a one percent conversion would bring in another $4,000 a month ... although the pirates are so fanatical about her, I wouldn't be surprized if the conversion rate could be as high as 10 percent or $40,000 ...

Maybe some joined her site anyway ... but the pirates were literally getting all of her movies for free ...

Hence the basis for my estimate...

[This message has been edited by erotictrance (edited 11-19-2001).]