Whats the average retention for paysites now? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

SomeCreep · 01-01-2005, 03:03 AM

50 months

jayeff · 01-01-2005, 03:59 AM

Okay, this is only a poll with no guarantee of accuracy. But it's interesting that it suggests the exact same (very short) retention that most were citing back on the YNot board during a long thread on a similar topic back in '97 (if memory serves).

Interesting too that most people suggest "keeping the surfers happy" as the solution, yet there is only a very small number more "quality" sites among the well-known sponsors than there were 7 years ago. In the meantime there have been some sponsors who have proved that you can retain members, grow big doing so, and keep your affiliates happy. So why do most sponsors still insist on churning through members as if there is an infinite supply?

Part of the reason is probably habit: for many it is the only model of which they have any experience. But it is also still the route of choice for most start-up programs which aspire to any kind of large-scale exposure. And this is despite the extra risk, the extra start-up capital that is needed, etc., etc.

In some cases it may be attitude. I remember the glee with which some webmasters would greet the latest popup or warp code that Andy Dunn published in his Trix. I guess that for many, running a totally straight program just isn't very appealing.

Unless most are blindly following the herd, most apparently believe that the PPS model (with all that implies) is potentially the most profitable. Perhaps so, although I have always felt there is something bizarre about the notion that there is more money to be made from running surfers through the hoops than from simply delivering what they want.

Whatever the truth of that, a well-run PPS program can certainly deliver cash faster to both sponsors and their affiliates. But in the end does this model really generate more money than a solid recurring program such as Karups or Scoreland? And even if yes, for how long is this model sustainable? Some sponsors have enjoyed close to a decade already, but with all the changes in the market - including the tightening of card processors' scrubbing procedures and the slowing of Internet take-up from countries acceptable to the processors - can this model survive another 10 years?

Or is PPS the model of choice just because it is easier to mislead affiliates? I'm damn sure the cost per member is climbing steadily, despite reductions in content and hosting expenses, and I suspect prices are about as high as they can be without further increases becoming counter productive. Which makes the affiliates' piece of the pie about the only way sponsors can make up any shortfalls. Since we aren't generally being squeezed openly, one wonders - for example - whether the lower conversion rates many are complaining of, are simply a result of increased competition and cynical surfers, etc., or whether - at least in part - they reflect manipulation going on behind the scenes.

Hot Visions · 01-01-2005, 04:01 AM

i just started a Smoking fetish paysite.... i hope it goes good for me

check it out in my sig

bigdog · 01-01-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot Visions

i just started a Smoking fetish paysite.... i hope it goes good for me

check it out in my sig

before you stared it I hope you have lots of smoking traffic

Donnie Gangsta · 01-01-2005, 06:24 AM

don't know if it really matters.. it's pretty late so this thread is probably going to die.. 2-3 mo's is where it's at for me as well.. i've talked to a lot of people and they are the same.. this poll says it all...

my take is that the exclusive content with HOT girls only matters on the front end.. hot girls definitely convert better than ugly girls.. I know some people get so used to looking at porn that they don't realize that from the surfer's perspective, hot girls matter a lot.. when I look at girls, unless I'm 'trying' to think like a surfer, I just see some naked chick like tens of thousands of others i've seen..

no avg joe porn surfer is going to pay $40/mo for something... they only do it because they forget.... sure you could charge less and retain maybe a bit longer.. say charge $20 and retain 5 months.. what the fuck is the point? it works out to the same $.. only real benefit to lowering the membership price is lowering CB rate..

for really good quality sites, there is the fact that the surfers will remember the sites and join at a later date (after they're horny again).. only if the sites are very memorable.

but basically, I think no matter what you do it's 2.5 mo's.. you make the profit off mailing them over and over getting them to join again after they cancel, off up sales (especially from email) and off exits.. although once you get a shitload of members regardless of if 2.5 months is the average you WILL have people sign up that NEVER cancel. If you're getting 500 joins/day and 1% stays forever, that is still acquiring 150 members/mo that will never go away until their card expires.. (and after a yr that is $75k/mo, which isn't bad). I think this is where programs make their money im my experience and opinion..

bigdog · 01-01-2005, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnie Gangsta

don't know if it really matters.. it's pretty late so this thread is probably going to die.. 2-3 mo's is where it's at for me as well.. i've talked to a lot of people and they are the same.. this poll says it all...

my take is that the exclusive content with HOT girls only matters on the front end.. hot girls definitely convert better than ugly girls.. I know some people get so used to looking at porn that they don't realize that from the surfer's perspective, hot girls matter a lot.. when I look at girls, unless I'm 'trying' to think like a surfer, I just see some naked chick like tens of thousands of others i've seen..

no avg joe porn surfer is going to pay $40/mo for something... they only do it because they forget.... sure you could charge less and retain maybe a bit longer.. say charge $20 and retain 5 months.. what the fuck is the point? it works out to the same $.. only real benefit to lowering the membership price is lowering CB rate..

for really good quality sites, there is the fact that the surfers will remember the sites and join at a later date (after they're horny again).. only if the sites are very memorable.

but basically, I think no matter what you do it's 2.5 mo's.. you make the profit off mailing them over and over getting them to join again after they cancel, off up sales (especially from email) and off exits.. although once you get a shitload of members regardless of if 2.5 months is the average you WILL have people sign up that NEVER cancel. If you're getting 500 joins/day and 1% stays forever, that is still acquiring 150 members/mo that will never go away until their card expires.. (and after a yr that is $75k/mo, which isn't bad). I think this is where programs make their money im my experience and opinion..

good post, In the past i have come across a couple of sites that had exclusive looking content on the frontend, but none of that content in the members area

hydro · 01-01-2005, 06:55 AM

You really can't pin down retention on 1 thing and just fix it over night, the best thing to do is just ask your surfers what improvements you should make to the site/members area. Of course some will say "oh charge $1 for 30 days" or "more free porn" but some will actually give you some pretty good advice. The same way you would if a webmaster requested galleries or fpa's etc.

RRACY · 01-01-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregtx

ok simple math.. so not to bore the rest.. say you have 10 joins..
you pay $40 on a $39.95 join... and just 20% or two of those go through another month.. you just made $80.. (now this is a very very very simple answer) but just so you understand...

and if you want to add trials to that.. then it gets more complicated.. its a numbers game...

what up Rog... hope to see ya next week

Most affilliates would go either full revshare or low trial/PPS. It's alot easier to sell a 4.95 trial and get paid 35 bucks. It wouldn't be surprising to see current buisness models modified such as Nastydollars paying a flat $40 and requiring a new member to pay 24.95.

Kevsh · 01-01-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregtx

lmao.. you are kidding right??? sites used to retain in the 70% plus range back in the days.... NO site is even close to that these days... especially revshares.. if a revshare retained that well... they would be even more of an idiot for not doing PPS... as for the CD's... exactly.. why buy the cd when you can get it for free.. or for pennies on the song... same with porn.. why pay for it.. when you can get it all for free... or for a $1 or free trial...

Agreed 100% but this is why I choose to promo webcam/live cam dating sites - you can't download or save a live, 2-way communication.

RRACY · 01-01-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff

Okay, this is only a poll with no guarantee of accuracy. But it's interesting that it suggests the exact same (very short) retention that most were citing back on the YNot board during a long thread on a similar topic back in '97 (if memory serves).

Interesting too that most people suggest "keeping the surfers happy" as the solution, yet there is only a very small number more "quality" sites among the well-known sponsors than there were 7 years ago. In the meantime there have been some sponsors who have proved that you can retain members, grow big doing so, and keep your affiliates happy. So why do most sponsors still insist on churning through members as if there is an infinite supply?

Part of the reason is probably habit: for many it is the only model of which they have any experience. But it is also still the route of choice for most start-up programs which aspire to any kind of large-scale exposure. And this is despite the extra risk, the extra start-up capital that is needed, etc., etc.

In some cases it may be attitude. I remember the glee with which some webmasters would greet the latest popup or warp code that Andy Dunn published in his Trix. I guess that for many, running a totally straight program just isn't very appealing.

Unless most are blindly following the herd, most apparently believe that the PPS model (with all that implies) is potentially the most profitable. Perhaps so, although I have always felt there is something bizarre about the notion that there is more money to be made from running surfers through the hoops than from simply delivering what they want.

Whatever the truth of that, a well-run PPS program can certainly deliver cash faster to both sponsors and their affiliates. But in the end does this model really generate more money than a solid recurring program such as Karups or Scoreland? And even if yes, for how long is this model sustainable? Some sponsors have enjoyed close to a decade already, but with all the changes in the market - including the tightening of card processors' scrubbing procedures and the slowing of Internet take-up from countries acceptable to the processors - can this model survive another 10 years?

Or is PPS the model of choice just because it is easier to mislead affiliates? I'm damn sure the cost per member is climbing steadily, despite reductions in content and hosting expenses, and I suspect prices are about as high as they can be without further increases becoming counter productive. Which makes the affiliates' piece of the pie about the only way sponsors can make up any shortfalls. Since we aren't generally being squeezed openly, one wonders - for example - whether the lower conversion rates many are complaining of, are simply a result of increased competition and cynical surfers, etc., or whether - at least in part - they reflect manipulation going on behind the scenes.

Good post.

RogerV · 01-01-2005, 11:01 AM

I guess Now I know what to do for 2005.

now we need to focus on censoring the free sites LOL

C_U_Next_Tuesday · 01-01-2005, 11:07 AM

2-3 months... but depends on the type of site as mentioned above..

amateur sites retain very well where the girl/guy has customer interaction.

cayne · 01-01-2005, 12:03 PM

looks like I should start a paysite to make the big money...2 months that's not bad at all.

DutchTeenCash · 01-01-2005, 12:40 PM

its easy to post a 2 yrs rebill, weve got them too.. but average 2,5-3 months is for real

bigdog · 01-01-2005, 01:20 PM

Good point donnie makes about pricing. Some sites charge a low price and might keep a member for 4-5 months but you could have gotten the same money out of the person in two months charging a higher monthly price

Pornkings · 01-01-2005, 03:03 PM

this is why as a webmaster you need to look at how the sponsor does there trials and what they pay out to determine what converts or can make you the most.

higher payout might not matter if the trial is to high and doesn't convert your traffic etc.

we have many PPS models in Pornkings look at what makes you more at the end of the day and not the payout. we have payouts from 3 cents to $35

PPS is the way to go. just look at the poll

jayeff · 01-01-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pornkings

PPS is the way to go. just look at the poll

What the poll shows, if it is an accurate reflection of reality, is how dismally we satisfy the needs of our customers. The only reason to prolong the equivalent of pressure-selling aluminium sidings is because there aren't enough sponsors offering an alternative, to accomodate us all.

People made money selling sidings and people make money from the crap marketed via PPS. I suppose there is a theoretical chance we could be the first industry to make serious, long-term money, depending entirely on smoke and mirrors. But it is much more likely that PPS operators are wide open to competition from programs that offer something more solid.

Such programs may be slow coming because they require comittment and creativity. Were it as simple as high-quality content and regular updates, there would already be thousands. But some exist now and more will follow.

We may not make more money when PPS is finally in the past. But we won't need to question any longer when the bubble is going to burst and it will be very refreshing not to be always wondering what we should have earned. Considering how many people have got rich with PPS, I think there will be surprisingly few mourners at its funeral.

Pornkings · 01-03-2005, 09:27 AM

bump for PPS

RRACY · 01-03-2005, 09:34 AM

Some of the oldest and most successful sites are revshare. I bet the profit margins for these guys compared to some of the PPS aren't much different.

FTVGirls · 01-03-2005, 09:46 AM

Man... I wish we had started FTV not two years ago, but in the good old days of 6 years ago. I'd have enough $$ then to produce a movie based on the books of Robert Jordan hahaaaaa

Drake · 01-03-2005, 10:02 AM

The poll can be read to indicate that revshare is more profitable than PPS and vice versa.

For instance, I suppose it depends on how much the revshare program pays and charges.

If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 50%, according to this poll, on average the revshare affiliate would earn (2-3 months), between $30 and $45 for each member.

If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 60% or if it pays $20 revshare, on average the affiliate would earn between $40 and $60 for each member.

If the subscription is $39.99 and pays 50% or 60%, the revshare affiliate would earn on average between $40 and $72 for each member.

This doesn't include those members that stay forever.

On the flip side PPS takes care of all those that drop off after one month. The difference would be on average $10 loss for a revshare affiliate. So it seems to equal out or at this point or revshare appears to still have a slight edge depending on the program being promoted.

I promote each type of program for different reasons. I promote PPS for fast money and lots of it. I promote revshare for stability, continuous flow of funds, and overall growth over time.

View Poll Results: Choose one
1 month	14	16.28%
2 months	39	45.35%
3 months	22	25.58%
4 months	5	5.81%
5 months	0	0%
6 months	6	6.98%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

01-01-2005, 03:03 AM	#51
SomeCreep :glugglug Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Wild Things Are Posts: 26,118	50 months __________________ Webair Hosting I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

01-01-2005, 04:01 AM	#53
Hot Visions Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: North Miami Beach Posts: 469	i just started a Smoking fetish paysite.... i hope it goes good for me check it out in my sig __________________ 50% ON ALL SIGN UPS AND RECURRING!! Sites converting FAST!! We Produce High Quality Custom And Exclusive Content!! View Our New Trailer Hit me up on ICQ: 325-177-731

01-01-2005, 12:03 PM	#63
cayne My time is coming... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe --- eMail: service(at)badasscompany.com --- ICQ: 60288510 Posts: 7,476	looks like I should start a paysite to make the big money...2 months that's not bad at all. __________________ If lesbian anal is wrong, I don't want to be right.

01-01-2005, 12:40 PM	#64
DutchTeenCash I like Dutch Girls Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: dutchteencash.com Posts: 21,684	its easy to post a 2 yrs rebill, weve got them too.. but average 2,5-3 months is for real __________________ ICQ 16 91 547 - SKYPE dutchteencash bob AT dutchteencash DOT com ... did you see our newest Sweet Natural Girl Priscilla (18)?

01-01-2005, 03:59 AM	#52
jayeff Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 2,944	Okay, this is only a poll with no guarantee of accuracy. But it's interesting that it suggests the exact same (very short) retention that most were citing back on the YNot board during a long thread on a similar topic back in '97 (if memory serves). Interesting too that most people suggest "keeping the surfers happy" as the solution, yet there is only a very small number more "quality" sites among the well-known sponsors than there were 7 years ago. In the meantime there have been some sponsors who have proved that you can retain members, grow big doing so, and keep your affiliates happy. So why do most sponsors still insist on churning through members as if there is an infinite supply? Part of the reason is probably habit: for many it is the only model of which they have any experience. But it is also still the route of choice for most start-up programs which aspire to any kind of large-scale exposure. And this is despite the extra risk, the extra start-up capital that is needed, etc., etc. In some cases it may be attitude. I remember the glee with which some webmasters would greet the latest popup or warp code that Andy Dunn published in his Trix. I guess that for many, running a totally straight program just isn't very appealing. Unless most are blindly following the herd, most apparently believe that the PPS model (with all that implies) is potentially the most profitable. Perhaps so, although I have always felt there is something bizarre about the notion that there is more money to be made from running surfers through the hoops than from simply delivering what they want. Whatever the truth of that, a well-run PPS program can certainly deliver cash faster to both sponsors and their affiliates. But in the end does this model really generate more money than a solid recurring program such as Karups or Scoreland? And even if yes, for how long is this model sustainable? Some sponsors have enjoyed close to a decade already, but with all the changes in the market - including the tightening of card processors' scrubbing procedures and the slowing of Internet take-up from countries acceptable to the processors - can this model survive another 10 years? Or is PPS the model of choice just because it is easier to mislead affiliates? I'm damn sure the cost per member is climbing steadily, despite reductions in content and hosting expenses, and I suspect prices are about as high as they can be without further increases becoming counter productive. Which makes the affiliates' piece of the pie about the only way sponsors can make up any shortfalls. Since we aren't generally being squeezed openly, one wonders - for example - whether the lower conversion rates many are complaining of, are simply a result of increased competition and cynical surfers, etc., or whether - at least in part - they reflect manipulation going on behind the scenes.

01-01-2005, 06:24 AM	#55
Donnie Gangsta Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,104	don't know if it really matters.. it's pretty late so this thread is probably going to die.. 2-3 mo's is where it's at for me as well.. i've talked to a lot of people and they are the same.. this poll says it all... my take is that the exclusive content with HOT girls only matters on the front end.. hot girls definitely convert better than ugly girls.. I know some people get so used to looking at porn that they don't realize that from the surfer's perspective, hot girls matter a lot.. when I look at girls, unless I'm 'trying' to think like a surfer, I just see some naked chick like tens of thousands of others i've seen.. no avg joe porn surfer is going to pay $40/mo for something... they only do it because they forget.... sure you could charge less and retain maybe a bit longer.. say charge $20 and retain 5 months.. what the fuck is the point? it works out to the same $.. only real benefit to lowering the membership price is lowering CB rate.. for really good quality sites, there is the fact that the surfers will remember the sites and join at a later date (after they're horny again).. only if the sites are very memorable. but basically, I think no matter what you do it's 2.5 mo's.. you make the profit off mailing them over and over getting them to join again after they cancel, off up sales (especially from email) and off exits.. although once you get a shitload of members regardless of if 2.5 months is the average you WILL have people sign up that NEVER cancel. If you're getting 500 joins/day and 1% stays forever, that is still acquiring 150 members/mo that will never go away until their card expires.. (and after a yr that is $75k/mo, which isn't bad). I think this is where programs make their money im my experience and opinion..

01-01-2005, 06:55 AM	#57
hydro Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dirty 3rd Posts: 4,216	You really can't pin down retention on 1 thing and just fix it over night, the best thing to do is just ask your surfers what improvements you should make to the site/members area. Of course some will say "oh charge $1 for 30 days" or "more free porn" but some will actually give you some pretty good advice. The same way you would if a webmaster requested galleries or fpa's etc.

01-01-2005, 11:01 AM	#61
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	I guess Now I know what to do for 2005. now we need to focus on censoring the free sites LOL

01-01-2005, 11:07 AM	#62
C_U_Next_Tuesday WW4L Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: over the river and through the woods Posts: 10,581	2-3 months... but depends on the type of site as mentioned above.. amateur sites retain very well where the girl/guy has customer interaction.

01-01-2005, 01:20 PM	#65
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	Good point donnie makes about pricing. Some sites charge a low price and might keep a member for 4-5 months but you could have gotten the same money out of the person in two months charging a higher monthly price

01-01-2005, 03:03 PM	#66
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	this is why as a webmaster you need to look at how the sponsor does there trials and what they pay out to determine what converts or can make you the most. higher payout might not matter if the trial is to high and doesn't convert your traffic etc. we have many PPS models in Pornkings look at what makes you more at the end of the day and not the payout. we have payouts from 3 cents to $35 PPS is the way to go. just look at the poll __________________ Pornkings.com

01-03-2005, 09:27 AM	#68
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	bump for PPS __________________ Pornkings.com

01-03-2005, 09:34 AM	#69
RRACY Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,393	Some of the oldest and most successful sites are revshare. I bet the profit margins for these guys compared to some of the PPS aren't much different.

01-03-2005, 09:46 AM	#70
FTVGirls So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 1,052	Man... I wish we had started FTV not two years ago, but in the good old days of 6 years ago. I'd have enough $$ then to produce a movie based on the books of Robert Jordan hahaaaaa

01-03-2005, 10:02 AM	#71
Drake Hello world! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12,508	The poll can be read to indicate that revshare is more profitable than PPS and vice versa. For instance, I suppose it depends on how much the revshare program pays and charges. If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 50%, according to this poll, on average the revshare affiliate would earn (2-3 months), between $30 and $45 for each member. If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 60% or if it pays $20 revshare, on average the affiliate would earn between $40 and $60 for each member. If the subscription is $39.99 and pays 50% or 60%, the revshare affiliate would earn on average between $40 and $72 for each member. This doesn't include those members that stay forever. On the flip side PPS takes care of all those that drop off after one month. The difference would be on average $10 loss for a revshare affiliate. So it seems to equal out or at this point or revshare appears to still have a slight edge depending on the program being promoted. I promote each type of program for different reasons. I promote PPS for fast money and lots of it. I promote revshare for stability, continuous flow of funds, and overall growth over time. Last edited by Drake; 01-03-2005 at 10:04 AM..