rhizome

Who the fuck said anything about psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis suffered its last death when the students took over the Sorbonne in '68

rhizome

And your post proves your ignorance. For some absurd reason Americans equate motivation with that which is justified. That's why you don't hear any talk about what possibly could have led these terrorists to commic such an atrocious act. Instead you get shit like, "Mr. bin laden is a man who is an evil man" or "This was a senseless act of cowardice by an evildoer". What bullshit!

One can eaily have a motivation without a justification. In Camus' L'etranger, the outsider kills an arab because the sun made him do it. That's a motivation but in no way does it justify what he did (unless he is tried by Judge Gary). You will never have any success stopping terrorism unless you get in the terrorists' heads and try to comprehend what led them to commit such acts. And contrary to popular ignorance, you can do this without justifying the acts themselves.

Jack Dare

Ok, maybe I chose the wrong term, I'm not a psychiatrist nor a psychologist. But you said we don't try to "understand the psyche of the terrorist". They use terror to archive their goals, and terror includes slaughtering women and children. What more do you need to know about them at this point?

They need to resort to a different means of protest before we can all sit down and chat about our differences.

[Labret]

Oh My Fucking God. Take your Philo 101 bullshit and ram it up your ass.

Everyone knows why they did it fuckwad. Creation of Israel, Palenstinian Independence, stopping US funding in Israel, American troops in Somalia, Saudi Arabia, the embargo against Iraq... the camel fuckers have come up with a myriad of reasons why.

So let me get this straight, if I can come up with enough reasons to come up to Toronto and blow your fucking house up, that makes it ok?




[This message has been edited by [Labret] (edited 10-15-2001).]

Amputate Your Head

I live by simple rules... among them is this one:

Attack my country...? Slaughter innocent civilians...? Hurt my family or friends... or otherwise impose your fanitical cult-mentality bullshit on my life or way of life to the point that it costs lives...? There will not simply be retaliation... there will be Hell on mutha fuckin' Earth. There will be some serious fuckin' death knockin' down the front door. There will be no rest until the streets run red with blood and every last fucking scream is silenced into oblivion. And in its wake, all will know the price of crossing that line is very very expensive.

Go hug your fuckin' trees and cry and wave your goddamned signs and pray for mercy. Personally, I don't hold my breath for someone elses interpretation of "mercy". And thankfully, the US Machine doesn't either.

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[Labret]

And Camu was a very poor poor example to use.

rhizome

Holy fucking shit. You must be kidding. What the fuck did I just say in my post? "For some absurd reason Americans equate motivation with that which is justified." Of course Camus wasn't the best example but it does at least give credence to the idea that motivations do not have to be rational to be motivations. So let's take your example. Of course you can come to Toronto and blow my house up and you may want to blow some more houses up too. And that has NOTHING to do with justification. But if I wanted to stop you from blowing up houses, then my first step would be to find out your motivations.

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the camel fuckers have come up with a myriad of reasons why
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Of course we know what reasons they give and they change all the day depending on the situation. But who gives a shit what they say? There's a lot of stuff at work beneath the surface. If you're going to stop them, then that's the stuff you got to get at.



[This message has been edited by rhizome (edited 10-15-2001).]

playa

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Jack Dare

Wrong, your first step would be to restrain them with any force necessary, THEN get into their heads.

Ludedude

Quote:

But if I wanted to stop you from blowing up houses, then my first step would be to find out your motivations.

See, that IS typical tree-hugging liberal bullshit. If you want to stop him, you shoot him in the head. You want to talk motivations, sure...after you neutralize his ass you can philosphize about his motivations. I'm betting if you stand around discussing motivations too long, you'll be wondering what the fuck happened to your house.

We know what happened to our house. We tried to analyze this shit instead of taking action. Lesson learned. I don't think there will be a lot of discussions of Camu in the war room. The motivation, as Labret has said, has been thrown in our face. The great white satan, the creator of Israel (historically accurate or not), the defense of Kuwait etc. etc. It's all old news. The motivations are clear...world domination by a bunch of fanatics in the name of religion. It's an old fucking story, told time and again in history books.

Time to pay the piper.

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Jack Dare

Look more closely at real life. How often do you see a cop chasing a guy on a killing spree trying to understand him before taking a shot? How many times will you be punched in the face before defending yourself?

rhizome

As if they don't know that now. Wake up, the whole world knows about the U.S.'s penchant for excessive military action. I don't give a shit if you nuke the entire Middle East but that won't solve shit. So when the terrorists come back in 6 months, you send some more nukes and the ccle continues ad nauseum. What a fucking life! Today my mother dies and I kill 1000. Tomorrow my father dies and I kill 10000. Next week my baby dies and I kill a million. It's fucking nihilism, that's what it is. I'd be shitting my pants right now if I was close to you knowing that you were more interested waging an endless mass war than in trying to protect future war acts from ever occurring.

Jack Dare

Who said anything about nuking anyone? The terrorists are a small minority and are as much feared by civilians in that region as they are here. Tactical attacks seem very appropriate.

Again, what do you propose we do? Try to understand them as they continue killing women and children?

rhizome

Screw treehuggers and liberals - they're about as useless as libertarians. On to the point. Who is "him"? We know those directly involved are dead - that's a no-brainer for most. But who else is responsible and where are they and how do you stop them? What if bin Laden's motivations all along were to instigate an air assault on Afghanistan to drum up support. Al-Qaeda afterall did grow exponentially following the Gulf War. We see it in America, Canada and the U.K. - there's nothing like an attack to get people enlisted. Is this what you want? For Al-Qaeda to grow tenfold? If it is, then again, remind me never to rely on you for protection.

Ludedude

Those are good points. The terror organizations and those governments that shelter them do so by browbeating their own populations. Saddam with his Kurdish rebellion, the Taliban with their middle-aged views on women, etc. All of those regimes have come to power by force, and they rule by force. It's what they understand...it's the only way they can keep control, as the general population in those countries is certainly not better off under their rule. They just don't have the ability to overthrow them...but they will. If nothing else, the ruling clan in Afghanistan will collapse and that's a good start towards taking out the fucking garbage.

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Amputate Your Head

Several years ago... while I was still in the military... I was staying at a hotel in Buttfuck, Kansas for a weekend. Stayed at the hotel bar till about midnight... and while walkin' back to my room, was jumped by three assholes in the hallway. I can honestly tell you that they did not wanna listen to a fuckin' cry for peace or stories about how more violence is wrong. And I can also tell ya that they were not met by me singin' a fuckin' song about holding hands and spreading love. They were met with teeth and knuckles. The only thing they understand.

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Just another monkey with a computer.

Ludedude

Quote:

If it is, then again, remind me never to rely on you for protection.

Ha...but you do rely on us for protection. And your country as a whole appears to support our efforts. Of course you know that we dont want to create support for Al-Qaeda. And as long as they keep committing atrocities against civilians they won't have that support. They don't have it at home except for the lunatic fringe that enjoys the odd flag burning. The populace is cowed by fear. Take away what they're afraid of and watch the whole house of cards come tumbling down.

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[Labret]

Yes. I say we open up a warm and honest dialog with the Taliban, Al Queda, Hizbollah (sic), Islamic Jihad etc...

Lets invite them over, drink some tea, have a drum circle, listen to Phish and engage in some very constructive discussions as to why they feel it necessary to spend several years and millions of dollars plotting to blow up western interests around the world.

We can hug and embrace them as brothers. There is only one race, and thats the human race. We all worship the same God... Allah, Jesus, Yahwey. And if we can all just set aside our petty differences for just one moment and let bygones be bygones I think we can overcome our issues and celebrate the diversity that makes this world such a wonderful place in peace and harmony.

Pass me the hummis and the bong.

Ludedude

Quote:

Pass me the hummis and the bong.

I love that shit

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