Late night tech discussion: Is flash the future of the net? - GoFuckYourself.com

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 12:44 AM

Because of certain limitations, particularly SEO, flash hasn't become the future, imo.

Web visitors just want to access content, and really don't care about design too much. however --- there is still a degree in which the presentation of the content is a factor.

The amount of superiority flash has over html sites to deliver content in such a creative interactive way, in and of itself would mean a web comprised of all flash sites. But since there are other factors (verrrry few designers who can do truely good flash design, SEO, a small margin of those without flash, and other variables) - this has not become the case.

but I believe if those conditions were ruled out over time, which I believe they will, you will begin to see more and more sites structuring layouts in an interactive, more motion styled presentation (as flash allows one to do)

bret · 12-13-2004, 12:49 AM

hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast.

personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bret
hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast.

personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

yes, for now I'd say it's too early if you own a business and your site is entirely flash.

but there are a few flash sites out there that aren't annoying like the 99% of the others out there, and actually increases the experience.

baddog · 12-13-2004, 12:52 AM

until you can figure out a way for a SE spider to read flash, I wouldn't count on it

KRL · 12-13-2004, 12:53 AM

can you hit me up on ICQ

fuzebox · 12-13-2004, 12:56 AM

Good Lord, I hope not.

baddog · 12-13-2004, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRL
can you hit me up on ICQ

who was that addressed to?

boner 2.0 · 12-13-2004, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bret
hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast.

personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

I agree! I'm tired of the all fucking flash site, I hate it

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by baddog
until you can figure out a way for a SE spider to read flash, I wouldn't count on it

I believe this is an issue people are actively trying to solve. haven't done much research though.

BRISK · 12-13-2004, 01:01 AM

I think Flash can be used well for navigation menus and things like that, but not so much for content (definitely not for text).

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
I think Flash can be used well for navigation menus and things like that, but not so much for content (definitely not for text).

exactly, because of SEO. but if SEO weren't a problem (and neither were the other factors), I can see the big sites shifting to an all flash design.

NaughtyRob · 12-13-2004, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by baddog
until you can figure out a way for a SE spider to read flash, I wouldn't count on it

There are ways.

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRL
can you hit me up on ICQ

I'm on if that was addressed to me.

jay23 · 12-13-2004, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galleryseek
Because of certain limitations, particularly SEO, flash hasn't become the future, imo.

Web visitors just want to access content, and really don't care about design too much. however --- there is still a degree in which the presentation of the content is a factor.

The amount of superiority flash has over html sites to deliver content in such a creative interactive way, in and of itself would mean a web comprised of all flash sites. But since there are other factors (verrrry few designers who can do truely good flash design, SEO, a small margin of those without flash, and other variables) - this has not become the case.

but I believe if those conditions were ruled out over time, which I believe they will, you will begin to see more and more sites structuring layouts in an interactive, more motion styled presentation (as flash allows one to do)

Google is going to Index Flash, they presented at the last webmasterworld show. Also Macromedia is doing a lot of work in this area. We are doing a lot of work on Flash Video as thats an area that is going to blow up soon.

Jay
[email protected]

galleryseek · 12-13-2004, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jay23
Google is going to Index Flash, they presented at the last webmasterworld show. Also Macromedia is doing a lot of work in this area. We are doing a lot of work on Flash Video as thats an area that is going to blow up soon.

Jay
[email protected]

knew it

richard · 12-13-2004, 01:58 AM

Q: Is Flash the future of the net?

A: I say, 'no'.

I've recently been doing a lot of work utlising W3C standards, and have been reading extensively on the virtures of why they are a good idea in the first place.

When you're designing websites with usability in mind, it is very difficult to include flash elements without compromising your aims.

The core of the web will remain with the W3C. Flash may even become extinct in the future, and replaced by SVG (W3C standard, Scaleable Vector Graphics).

One theory is that because SVG is such a bad-ass idea (XML based!) Macromedia will be forced into adopting it; they'll then use their authoring tools (ie Freehand, FlashMX etc) to produce SVG files.

sexdwarf · 01-21-2005, 04:00 PM

Actually, SEO is possible in Flash; same for bookmarkable pages etc...

Another thing to note is that full-flash sites are not necessarily as bad as you think.... have you seen the new Road Runner site? (http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm) It was designed by Fantasy Interactive (http://www.fantasy-interactive.com) whom also has a full flash site... it can be accomplished if done right...

anyhow i know i am a week late with this response, just thought i'd share

galleryseek · 01-21-2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexdwarf

Actually, SEO is possible in Flash; same for bookmarkable pages etc...

Another thing to note is that full-flash sites are not necessarily as bad as you think.... have you seen the new Road Runner site? (http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm) It was designed by Fantasy Interactive (http://www.fantasy-interactive.com) whom also has a full flash site... it can be accomplished if done right...

anyhow i know i am a week late with this response, just thought i'd share

cool, but you aren't a week late, more like a month late.. lol.

yeah, the road runner site is really amazing.

Rui · 01-21-2005, 04:34 PM

I think that flash ain't suitable for all sorts of sites, I mean fancy eye-candy is far from beeing a requirement for many markets...

shuki · 01-21-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexdwarf

Actually, SEO is possible in Flash; same for bookmarkable pages etc...

Another thing to note is that full-flash sites are not necessarily as bad as you think.... have you seen the new Road Runner site? (http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm) It was designed by Fantasy Interactive (http://www.fantasy-interactive.com) whom also has a full flash site... it can be accomplished if done right...

anyhow i know i am a week late with this response, just thought i'd share

Very interestin movies on there site....care to take a guess at what roadrunner's site cost to build?

I got a quote from a mainstream design house www.wddg.com around $250k for what I wanted and it was nothing compared to the roadrunner site. I bet it cost over 1 million.

shuki · 01-21-2005, 04:36 PM

double post sorry

jukeboxfrank · 01-21-2005, 04:39 PM

Flash will become the standard as pro companies distance them selfs from the amateurs and hope to capture more of the market

dirtysouth · 01-21-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard

Q: Is Flash the future of the net?

A: I say, 'no'.

I've recently been doing a lot of work utlising W3C standards, and have been reading extensively on the virtures of why they are a good idea in the first place.

When you're designing websites with usability in mind, it is very difficult to include flash elements without compromising your aims.

The core of the web will remain with the W3C. Flash may even become extinct in the future, and replaced by SVG (W3C standard, Scaleable Vector Graphics).

One theory is that because SVG is such a bad-ass idea (XML based!) Macromedia will be forced into adopting it; they'll then use their authoring tools (ie Freehand, FlashMX etc) to produce SVG files.

I've been working 15 hours a day learning and converting all my sites and client's sites to be W3C compliant. Makes me sleep better at night.

sexdwarf · 01-21-2005, 09:38 PM

wddg and fantasy-interactive (among many other mainstream design haus') are out of many people's budgets... but the people that work at those kind of large companies (i am one of those people) often do freelance work at the same quality (obviously if they work for the large interactive agencies) but far more reasonable prices...

it's not like the actual programmers/designers are getting that big of a cut from the 250k

tony286 · 01-21-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bret

hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast.

personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

I agree flash is very annoying

sexdwarf · 01-21-2005, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

I agree flash is very annoying

i disagree... it CAN be quite annoying when used unprofessionally..same goes for animated images and banners in general... flash itself has alot of solid potential behind it if used correctly...

rebel23 · 01-21-2005, 10:02 PM

it is often worth pondering where the web is going or will go in 3-5 years+, I think more interactive will be the norm.. flash video is pretty impressive and as people get faster connections I think we'll see more of this over the coming years.. I dont know whether flash will 'take over' or if something else will.. also, as someone mentioned good flash designs can't be pumped out by just anyone; it's a whole creative field in itself

I wonder what web design professionals here think and if any of them are bothering to learn flash at all ?

d00t · 01-21-2005, 10:10 PM

flash is great for advertising because of the amount you can pack into a small space.. plus it looks nice.

for a website.. fuck no

shuki · 01-21-2005, 10:18 PM

Sexdwarf,

In your opinion what was the cost of the Road Runner site and what would it take to recreate something like that today? How long etc. Are you capable of something of that scale via freelance? Hit me up either way I would love to chat.

L E E · 01-21-2005, 10:25 PM

In the end, everyone wins. You will see the best sites coded in php rendering CSS with jpeg headers, gif macros, and flash menus, which will account for less than 5% of the design.

If everyone (surfers too) had 512k DSL, sure, it would be fine. But flash is in primitive stages. Not only is it very slow, but it's very unresponsive. But you asked about "The Future"- Well no one knows the future. But yes, Flash has potential. It also has potential to be annoying, believe it or not.

Right now, php and CSS is going the distance and I'd put my money on it being the future. Will it surpass Flash technology? Not even the same ballgame.

Ultimately, for graphical applications, what it comes down to is dithering the animated gif. Because you can train the animated gif. But it has a serious issue with quality.

Then there's security.
We're referring to swf as "Flack". A conjunction of the words Flash and Hack, it's that unsecure.

L E E · 01-21-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bret

hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast.

personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

I'll agree with that. But I'll raise you one: Interactive Media

The music biz, the movie biz, digital artists and fans sites (don't forget the majority here) will harness the power of Flash.

LOOK AT THIS SITE: www.bandtime.tv

They could not do what they are doing WITHOUT flash. And I must say, that is one baddass fucking site and it loads FAST. (I keep it open in a seperate tab while I surf)

galleryseek · 01-21-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L E E

In the end, everyone wins. You will see the best sites coded in php rendering CSS with jpeg headers, gif macros, and flash menus, which will account for less than 5% of the design.

If everyone (surfers too) had 512k DSL, sure, it would be fine. But flash is in primitive stages. Not only is it very slow, but it's very unresponsive. But you asked about "The Future"- Well no one knows the future. But yes, Flash has potential. It also has potential to be annoying, believe it or not.

What're you talking about it's very slow??? Yeah, it's very slow if a moron flash designer created it, otherwise the file sizes can be identical with the same design in php/html...If the designer knows what he/she is doing, the rest of the animation (the purpose of putting it in flash) won't even be barely noticable when comparing to a standard html design.

www.roadrunner.com is a prime example of a very effective full scaled flash design. it's very apparent that in this version, they were able to accomplish a lot that wouldn't otherwise be capable in a standard design.

L E E · 01-21-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galleryseek

What're you talking about it's very slow??? Yeah, it's very slow if a moron flash designer created it, otherwise the file sizes can be identical with the same design in php/html...If the designer knows what he/she is doing, the rest of the animation (the purpose of putting it in flash) won't even be barely noticable when comparing to a standard html design.

www.roadrunner.com is a prime example of a very effective full scaled flash design. it's very apparent that in this version, they were able to accomplish a lot that wouldn't otherwise be capable in a standard design.

Ok, you're right. Flash is Fast.

The Apprentice · 01-21-2005, 10:47 PM

Flash sucks.

The End.

toddler · 01-21-2005, 10:53 PM

the future of media is motion. deal with it or become yet another cranky old fucker who says 'in my day...'. Move with the times or the times will leave you behind. Yes, many flash sites today either suck or are annoying. Some however are fucking brilliant. Flash elements, used well, can bring a LOT to a site. But, just like bad html is bad flash. When its really bad, it becomes good(or at the very least mockable).

/just sayin'

Theo · 01-21-2005, 11:36 PM

this galleryseek guy is very aggresive

sexdwarf · 01-22-2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuki

Sexdwarf,

In your opinion what was the cost of the Road Runner site and what would it take to recreate something like that today? How long etc. Are you capable of something of that scale via freelance? Hit me up either way I would love to chat.

my guess (with various other professionals in this field) is that their site came out to 100k to 250k... why wddg would quote you 250k is beyond me; they are an amazing design haus but nothing compared to say 2Advanced and Fantasy-Interactive (No offense to James intended in the odd event he comes accross this message)...

depending on your needs a site like that from a freelance level would run from 25k to 50k, depending on the exact functionality... obviously with a spec it can change drastically; but it's not as far reached as an agencies price... but hey; they have tons of overhead that a freelancer (or freelance group) don't have...

i guess i'll install ICQ and give you a buzz; seems everyone on here uses ICQ

now to see if i remember my ICQ number from 8 years ago

12-13-2004, 12:44 AM	#1
galleryseek Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 8,234	Late night tech discussion: Is flash the future of the net? Because of certain limitations, particularly SEO, flash hasn't become the future, imo. Web visitors just want to access content, and really don't care about design too much. however --- there is still a degree in which the presentation of the content is a factor. The amount of superiority flash has over html sites to deliver content in such a creative interactive way, in and of itself would mean a web comprised of all flash sites. But since there are other factors (verrrry few designers who can do truely good flash design, SEO, a small margin of those without flash, and other variables) - this has not become the case. but I believe if those conditions were ruled out over time, which I believe they will, you will begin to see more and more sites structuring layouts in an interactive, more motion styled presentation (as flash allows one to do)

12-13-2004, 12:53 AM	#5
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	can you hit me up on ICQ __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

12-13-2004, 01:01 AM	#10
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	I think Flash can be used well for navigation menus and things like that, but not so much for content (definitely not for text). __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

12-13-2004, 01:58 AM	#16
richard Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 543	Q: Is Flash the future of the net? A: I say, 'no'. I've recently been doing a lot of work utlising W3C standards, and have been reading extensively on the virtures of why they are a good idea in the first place. When you're designing websites with usability in mind, it is very difficult to include flash elements without compromising your aims. The core of the web will remain with the W3C. Flash may even become extinct in the future, and replaced by SVG (W3C standard, Scaleable Vector Graphics). One theory is that because SVG is such a bad-ass idea (XML based!) Macromedia will be forced into adopting it; they'll then use their authoring tools (ie Freehand, FlashMX etc) to produce SVG files. __________________

01-21-2005, 04:36 PM	#21
shuki Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 3,070	double post sorry __________________ Looking to buy established paysites contact me [email protected] Last edited by shuki; 01-21-2005 at 04:38 PM..

12-13-2004, 12:49 AM	#2
bret Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: detroit Posts: 766	hard to say. in the end people want information and they want it fast. personally i hate flash sites. they are bloated and take forever to find what you want. i find alot of corporate sites start out flash, end up firing their web design team and going back to a more traditional and simple format.

12-13-2004, 12:52 AM	#4
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	until you can figure out a way for a SE spider to read flash, I wouldn't count on it

12-13-2004, 12:56 AM	#6
fuzebox making it rain Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 22,119	Good Lord, I hope not.

01-21-2005, 04:00 PM	#17
sexdwarf Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 196	Actually, SEO is possible in Flash; same for bookmarkable pages etc... Another thing to note is that full-flash sites are not necessarily as bad as you think.... have you seen the new Road Runner site? (http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm) It was designed by Fantasy Interactive (http://www.fantasy-interactive.com) whom also has a full flash site... it can be accomplished if done right... anyhow i know i am a week late with this response, just thought i'd share

01-21-2005, 04:34 PM	#19
Rui web Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: On icq: 85-483-060 Posts: 9,533	I think that flash ain't suitable for all sorts of sites, I mean fancy eye-candy is far from beeing a requirement for many markets...

01-21-2005, 04:39 PM	#22
jukeboxfrank Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: www.jenniferworthington.com Posts: 1,207	Flash will become the standard as pro companies distance them selfs from the amateurs and hope to capture more of the market __________________ ICQ= 231-182-592

01-21-2005, 09:38 PM	#24
sexdwarf Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 196	wddg and fantasy-interactive (among many other mainstream design haus') are out of many people's budgets... but the people that work at those kind of large companies (i am one of those people) often do freelance work at the same quality (obviously if they work for the large interactive agencies) but far more reasonable prices... it's not like the actual programmers/designers are getting that big of a cut from the 250k

01-21-2005, 10:02 PM	#27
rebel23 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 817	it is often worth pondering where the web is going or will go in 3-5 years+, I think more interactive will be the norm.. flash video is pretty impressive and as people get faster connections I think we'll see more of this over the coming years.. I dont know whether flash will 'take over' or if something else will.. also, as someone mentioned good flash designs can't be pumped out by just anyone; it's a whole creative field in itself I wonder what web design professionals here think and if any of them are bothering to learn flash at all ? __________________ ICQ: 37378183

01-21-2005, 10:10 PM	#28
d00t Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In your mind Posts: 3,766	flash is great for advertising because of the amount you can pack into a small space.. plus it looks nice. for a website.. fuck no

01-21-2005, 10:18 PM	#29
shuki Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 3,070	Sexdwarf, In your opinion what was the cost of the Road Runner site and what would it take to recreate something like that today? How long etc. Are you capable of something of that scale via freelance? Hit me up either way I would love to chat. __________________ Looking to buy established paysites contact me [email protected]

01-21-2005, 10:25 PM	#30
L E E Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 127	In the end, everyone wins. You will see the best sites coded in php rendering CSS with jpeg headers, gif macros, and flash menus, which will account for less than 5% of the design. If everyone (surfers too) had 512k DSL, sure, it would be fine. But flash is in primitive stages. Not only is it very slow, but it's very unresponsive. But you asked about "The Future"- Well no one knows the future. But yes, Flash has potential. It also has potential to be annoying, believe it or not. Right now, php and CSS is going the distance and I'd put my money on it being the future. Will it surpass Flash technology? Not even the same ballgame. Ultimately, for graphical applications, what it comes down to is dithering the animated gif. Because you can train the animated gif. But it has a serious issue with quality. Then there's security. We're referring to swf as "Flack". A conjunction of the words Flash and Hack, it's that unsecure.

01-21-2005, 10:47 PM	#34
The Apprentice Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 839	Flash sucks. The End. __________________ SIG 4 SALE! $2 A YEAR!

01-21-2005, 10:53 PM	#35
toddler Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,911	the future of media is motion. deal with it or become yet another cranky old fucker who says 'in my day...'. Move with the times or the times will leave you behind. Yes, many flash sites today either suck or are annoying. Some however are fucking brilliant. Flash elements, used well, can bring a LOT to a site. But, just like bad html is bad flash. When its really bad, it becomes good(or at the very least mockable). /just sayin' __________________ http://www.flickr.com/photos/zoddler/

01-21-2005, 11:36 PM	#36
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	this galleryseek guy is very aggresive