Some thoughts on clicktruth - GoFuckYourself.com

Fuckin Bill · 12-10-2004, 08:20 AM

This isn't meant to bash anyone or anything like that. Just some honest thoughts that came to mind after I looked into the Clicktruth program the other night. I'm wondering if it's just me or if anyone else sees holes in how it works.

First thing is that I don't see how any 3rd party piece of software can reliably track or audit anything. It seems that having their software on a sponsor's server is no different than using a third party biller like CCBill...If the sponsor really wants to shave signups, they can bypass the software just like they can drop the referral code before they pass a transaction on to a billing processor. The only way to prevent something like that is to have the auditing stuff embedded into the affiliate software in compiled code that can't be worked around...Or at least not worked around easily without some good assembler knowledge.

The second thing I thought of seems pretty obvious. They get paid by the sponsors they want to audit. Failing a sponsor is like returning a paycheck. In any industry, loyalties usually lie with the money. I'd actually have more faith in a program like this if I were paying them, not the sponsor. How can a company be called an independent auditor when they derive their income from the very companies they are supposed to be auditing?

Then it also says on their site that they will not publish a list of companies that have failed their audits. If this information is not made public, how is it useful to anyone? Suppose "SuperXPornDollars" fails an audit and is removed from their program, but you were not using this sponsor at the time. Later on, you run across this sponsor and decide their sites look good and you want to use them... You have no way of knowing that they were once in this program and failed, and should be avoided. They look just like any other sponsor who has never used the program before and can continue to go on ripping off the unsuspecting. The only way to know if a sponsor is bad is if you happen to be using them, and continuously check the list of approved sponsors (which they do not publish yet) and notice that their name suddenly vanishes from the list.

In theory it sounds like a good idea...But in reality it seems pretty useless to the webmasters in the end. It doesn't seem like it makes anything any more reliable than 3rd party billing does. There was a time when everyone thought 3rd party billing was the answer and would eliminate any possibility of shaving and then people started to realize there are workarounds for it that still make shaving possible. I don't see how clicktruth is really any different. To me it looks like their income is coming from the wrong end of the industry, and in the end, they can be bypassed by a good programmer.

Am I wrong? Is there something I didn't see?

tranza · 12-10-2004, 08:54 AM

Ok, nobody will read all that. Can you explain what you were trying to say on 10 or less words??

nikad · 12-10-2004, 01:47 PM

I agree 100% with FB
Nik

PornGeneral · 12-10-2004, 01:54 PM

Anyone have the Cliff Notes?

Ice · 12-10-2004, 01:57 PM

From what I understand it's exclusive to MPA......

liquidmoe · 12-10-2004, 02:02 PM

Those are all very good points that you brought up. But I think even small steps made to correct them would go along way, such as a public outing of any company that has failed the audit, and a place where all failed companies can be viewed.

Of course a failed company should be allowed to plead their case and try to resolve the failure grade, since technical issues may be at fault, but thats a side issue on implementation.

Fuckin Bill · 12-10-2004, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by iceicebaby
From what I understand it's exclusive to MPA......

I thought I read that in another post here too. But when I looked at their site the other night they speak as if they're planning to try to get their stuff running with as many sponsors as they can.

Halcyon · 12-10-2004, 03:49 PM

I worked on ClickTruth earlier this year and it was a solid system with several ways to test it yourself. If you want want a demo or need more info, I'd shoot the guys at PornPosse.com an email.

Johnnyv · 12-10-2004, 08:37 PM

Hey Fuckin Bill,

My name is Johnny V. I am the owner of Clicktruth, and you are getting this information from the horses mouth. I don't know you, but I will be speaking on a couple of billing panels at Internext this January, so please feel free to come by and introduce yourself, and maybe we can get to know each other.

Thanks for bringing up some very valid and well thought out points regarding Clicktruth. I want to state for the record that I never reply to posts made on the boards, but yours in particular seemed thoughtful, and worth responding to. You'll see my number of posts seems pretty small for a 7 year run in the space. I won't respond again, but I am happy to have a face to face conversation with you, or anyone that has any questions, or hit me up at [email protected], I'll get your number and we can talk on the phone.

To your points:

By third party we mean that we are a seperate entity. We don't own sites, we don't make money by sign-ups, and we don't compete. The actual term has caused definition questions in the past. We are a third party meaning that we are not the program, and we are not the billing company. We watch both.

It is impossible to by-pass Clicktruth once it is in place, because there are several different ways in which we check to see that a sponsor is honest. We get information from the billing companies, we get information from the programs, and we run our own audits. I am happy to give you more information about that if you'd like; but not here for reasons I have already stated. Lastly, I'd put my programmers up against anyone in a head to head, "whose the best bad-ass programmer, with serious assembly skills" contest. We have thought about all the ways to by-pass our system and worked in safe-guards. Having said that, I don't pretend to have all the answers, and if you have in-put, I'd listen.

Your next point. This is a great point, and one that I understand your reasons for bringing up. Why would you trust someone *anyone* to honestly report indescretions about someone who is paying them. It would seem only to make sense that if I were being paid by ABCSEXCompany.com to audit their sign-ups, and I reported them fraudulent, that they would stop paying me. What possible reason could I have to say anything but "their great"...right?

Two answers to that question: 1) They don't pay me very much, and certainly not enough to warrent my putting my own reputation on the line. (I wouldn't do that for anyone at any price). 2) The moment that that happens Clicktruth is dead. The moment that I "take a bribe", or keep someone's money even if I know that they are dishonest, I'm done. I plan to be in the space a long time, and I just don't care enough about any one program to risk my integrity.

I also hate shaving. It is so unbelievably detrimental to this Industry as a whole, in so many ways, and in ways I'm sure that most sponsor programs do not understand. I plan to assist in the process of ending shaving, and assist in growing the Industry. If you try to explain shaving to anyone outside this Industry, they look at you like a dog hearing a high pitched sound. They turn their head with a "...what..." look on their face, and try to understand how we condone theft. Shaving is theft. Someone paid for that sign up. Hey, if they took it from me, I'd be pissed, and someone would have some explaining to do.

So, if I acted exactly like everyone else, I can kiss that goal good-bye. That may not be enough to answer your question but it is honest and from the heart. I cannot be bought. Come find me at Internext, and 10 minutes talking to me will prove that to you.

We have an exclusive with no one.

Your last point regarding the posting of Sponsor programs that have failed an audit. Here's the deal on that. I am not here to point my fingers in blame and "out" anyone. Imagine if I made a mistake. The potential damage is too great. I am here to allow sponsor programs who are serious about their claim of not shaving to prove it. I am not here to bash people or programs publicly, it is one of the things I like least about this space. I am here to offer an avenue where honest programs can say, and then prove, they are honest. That is the list I will post.

I hope that answered some of your questions. If you have any more, please fire them off to me personally. The long and the short of it is that if we don't regulate ourselves, we will be regulated by an entity that may not have the same sort of interests in seeing the Industry grow.

I'll be at Internext, and I'm just an e-mail away.

Johnny V.

12-10-2004, 08:20 AM	#1
Fuckin Bill Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,020	Some thoughts on clicktruth This isn't meant to bash anyone or anything like that. Just some honest thoughts that came to mind after I looked into the Clicktruth program the other night. I'm wondering if it's just me or if anyone else sees holes in how it works. First thing is that I don't see how any 3rd party piece of software can reliably track or audit anything. It seems that having their software on a sponsor's server is no different than using a third party biller like CCBill...If the sponsor really wants to shave signups, they can bypass the software just like they can drop the referral code before they pass a transaction on to a billing processor. The only way to prevent something like that is to have the auditing stuff embedded into the affiliate software in compiled code that can't be worked around...Or at least not worked around easily without some good assembler knowledge. The second thing I thought of seems pretty obvious. They get paid by the sponsors they want to audit. Failing a sponsor is like returning a paycheck. In any industry, loyalties usually lie with the money. I'd actually have more faith in a program like this if I were paying them, not the sponsor. How can a company be called an independent auditor when they derive their income from the very companies they are supposed to be auditing? Then it also says on their site that they will not publish a list of companies that have failed their audits. If this information is not made public, how is it useful to anyone? Suppose "SuperXPornDollars" fails an audit and is removed from their program, but you were not using this sponsor at the time. Later on, you run across this sponsor and decide their sites look good and you want to use them... You have no way of knowing that they were once in this program and failed, and should be avoided. They look just like any other sponsor who has never used the program before and can continue to go on ripping off the unsuspecting. The only way to know if a sponsor is bad is if you happen to be using them, and continuously check the list of approved sponsors (which they do not publish yet) and notice that their name suddenly vanishes from the list. In theory it sounds like a good idea...But in reality it seems pretty useless to the webmasters in the end. It doesn't seem like it makes anything any more reliable than 3rd party billing does. There was a time when everyone thought 3rd party billing was the answer and would eliminate any possibility of shaving and then people started to realize there are workarounds for it that still make shaving possible. I don't see how clicktruth is really any different. To me it looks like their income is coming from the wrong end of the industry, and in the end, they can be bypassed by a good programmer. Am I wrong? Is there something I didn't see?

12-10-2004, 08:54 AM	#2
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	Ok, nobody will read all that. Can you explain what you were trying to say on 10 or less words?? __________________ I'm just a newbie.

12-10-2004, 01:47 PM	#3
nikad Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: BA Posts: 2,579	I agree 100% with FB Nik __________________ The Filthy Few [email protected]

12-10-2004, 01:54 PM	#4
PornGeneral Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: In front of computer Posts: 564	Anyone have the Cliff Notes? __________________ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -Patton "Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato

12-10-2004, 01:57 PM	#5
Ice Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunny California Posts: 26,053	From what I understand it's exclusive to MPA...... __________________ icq 1904905

12-10-2004, 02:02 PM	#6
liquidmoe Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 4,994	Those are all very good points that you brought up. But I think even small steps made to correct them would go along way, such as a public outing of any company that has failed the audit, and a place where all failed companies can be viewed. Of course a failed company should be allowed to plead their case and try to resolve the failure grade, since technical issues may be at fault, but thats a side issue on implementation. __________________ Take Luck!

12-10-2004, 03:49 PM	#8
Halcyon Spread The Pink! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: TrampStampStudios.com Posts: 8,609	I worked on ClickTruth earlier this year and it was a solid system with several ways to test it yourself. If you want want a demo or need more info, I'd shoot the guys at PornPosse.com an email. __________________ HAL on TEDx:

12-10-2004, 08:37 PM	#9
Johnnyv Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 75	Hey Fuckin Bill, My name is Johnny V. I am the owner of Clicktruth, and you are getting this information from the horses mouth. I don't know you, but I will be speaking on a couple of billing panels at Internext this January, so please feel free to come by and introduce yourself, and maybe we can get to know each other. Thanks for bringing up some very valid and well thought out points regarding Clicktruth. I want to state for the record that I never reply to posts made on the boards, but yours in particular seemed thoughtful, and worth responding to. You'll see my number of posts seems pretty small for a 7 year run in the space. I won't respond again, but I am happy to have a face to face conversation with you, or anyone that has any questions, or hit me up at [email protected], I'll get your number and we can talk on the phone. To your points: By third party we mean that we are a seperate entity. We don't own sites, we don't make money by sign-ups, and we don't compete. The actual term has caused definition questions in the past. We are a third party meaning that we are not the program, and we are not the billing company. We watch both. It is impossible to by-pass Clicktruth once it is in place, because there are several different ways in which we check to see that a sponsor is honest. We get information from the billing companies, we get information from the programs, and we run our own audits. I am happy to give you more information about that if you'd like; but not here for reasons I have already stated. Lastly, I'd put my programmers up against anyone in a head to head, "whose the best bad-ass programmer, with serious assembly skills" contest. We have thought about all the ways to by-pass our system and worked in safe-guards. Having said that, I don't pretend to have all the answers, and if you have in-put, I'd listen. Your next point. This is a great point, and one that I understand your reasons for bringing up. Why would you trust someone anyone to honestly report indescretions about someone who is paying them. It would seem only to make sense that if I were being paid by ABCSEXCompany.com to audit their sign-ups, and I reported them fraudulent, that they would stop paying me. What possible reason could I have to say anything but "their great"...right? Two answers to that question: 1) They don't pay me very much, and certainly not enough to warrent my putting my own reputation on the line. (I wouldn't do that for anyone at any price). 2) The moment that that happens Clicktruth is dead. The moment that I "take a bribe", or keep someone's money even if I know that they are dishonest, I'm done. I plan to be in the space a long time, and I just don't care enough about any one program to risk my integrity. I also hate shaving. It is so unbelievably detrimental to this Industry as a whole, in so many ways, and in ways I'm sure that most sponsor programs do not understand. I plan to assist in the process of ending shaving, and assist in growing the Industry. If you try to explain shaving to anyone outside this Industry, they look at you like a dog hearing a high pitched sound. They turn their head with a "...what..." look on their face, and try to understand how we condone theft. Shaving is theft. Someone paid for that sign up. Hey, if they took it from me, I'd be pissed, and someone would have some explaining to do. So, if I acted exactly like everyone else, I can kiss that goal good-bye. That may not be enough to answer your question but it is honest and from the heart. I cannot be bought. Come find me at Internext, and 10 minutes talking to me will prove that to you. We have an exclusive with no one. Your last point regarding the posting of Sponsor programs that have failed an audit. Here's the deal on that. I am not here to point my fingers in blame and "out" anyone. Imagine if I made a mistake. The potential damage is too great. I am here to allow sponsor programs who are serious about their claim of not shaving to prove it. I am not here to bash people or programs publicly, it is one of the things I like least about this space. I am here to offer an avenue where honest programs can say, and then prove, they are honest. That is the list I will post. I hope that answered some of your questions. If you have any more, please fire them off to me personally. The long and the short of it is that if we don't regulate ourselves, we will be regulated by an entity that may not have the same sort of interests in seeing the Industry grow. I'll be at Internext, and I'm just an e-mail away. Johnny V.