U.S. GIs Hit Rumsfeld With Hard Questions

[CET]

They throw some hardcore shit at him, it's great. It's amazing how he tries to BS his way out of them too.

U.S. GIs Hit Rumsfeld With Hard Questions

1 hour, 27 minutes ago Middle East - AP


By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait - In a rare public airing of grievances, disgruntled soldiers complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Wednesday about long deployments and a lack of armored vehicles and other equipment.


"You go to war with the Army you have," Rumsfeld replied, "not the Army you might want or wish to have."


Spc. Thomas Wilson had asked the defense secretary, "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles?" Shouts of approval and applause arose from the estimated 2,300 soldiers who had assembled to see Rumsfeld.


Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.


"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson, 31, of Nashville, Tenn., concluded after asking again.


Wilson, an airplane mechanic whose unit, the 278th Regimental Combat Team of the Tennessee Army National Guard, is about to drive north into Iraq (news - web sites) for a one-year tour of duty, put his finger on a problem that has bedeviled the Pentagon (news - web sites) for more than a year. Rarely, though, is it put so bluntly in a public forum.


Rumsfeld said the Army was sparing no expense or effort to acquire as many Humvees and other vehicles with extra armor as it can. What is more, he said, armor is not the savior some think it is.


"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can (still) be blown up," he said. The same applies to the much smaller Humvee utility vehicles that, without extra armor, are highly vulnerable to the insurgents' weapon of choice in Iraq, the improvised explosive device that is a roadside threat to Army convoys and patrols.


U.S. soldiers and Marines in Iraq are killed or maimed by roadside bombs almost daily. Adding armor protection to Humvees and other vehicles that normally are not used in direct combat has been a priority for the Army, but manufacturers have not been able to keep up with the demand.


Wilson's ex-wife, Regina, said she was not surprised he challenged Rumsfeld.


"It wouldn't matter if it was Bush himself standing there," she said. "He would have dissed him the same."


Wilson joined the National Guard in June 2003; previously, he had served about four years in the Air Force, beginning in 1994.


Rumsfeld dropped in to Camp Buehring ? named for Lt. Col. Charles Buehring, who was killed in a rocket attack on a downtown Baghdad hotel in November 2003 ? to thank the troops for their service and to give them a pep talk. Later he flew to New Delhi for meetings Thursday with Indian government officials.


In his prepared remarks in Kuwait, Rumsfeld urged the troops ? mostly National Guard and Reserve soldiers ? to discount critics of the war and to help "win the test of wills" with the insurgents.


Wilson and others, however, had criticisms of their own ? not of the war but of how it was being fought.


During the question-and-answer session, another soldier complained that active-duty Army units seem to get priority over National Guard and Reserve units for the best equipment used in Iraq.


"There's no way I can prove it, but I am told the Army is breaking its neck to see that there is not" discrimination of that kind, Rumsfeld said.


Yet another soldier asked how much longer the Army would continue using its "stop loss" power to prevent soldiers from leaving the service who are otherwise eligible to retire or return to civilian life at the end of their enlistment.

Rumsfeld said this condition was simply a fact of life for soldiers in times of war. Critics, including some in Congress, say it's proof the Army has been stretched too thin by war.

"It's basically a sound principle, it's nothing new, it's been well understood" by soldiers, he said. "My guess is it will continue to be used as little as possible, but that it will continue to be used."

Sen. Christopher Dodd (news, bio, voting record), D-Conn., told Rumsfeld in a letter Wednesday that his response to the question about armored vehicles was "utterly unacceptable" and that it was the duty of the government to provide safety equipment.

"Mr. Secretary, our troops go to war with the Army that our nation's leaders provide," he wrote.

The deputy commanding general of U.S. forces in Kuwait, Maj. Gen. Gary Speer, said in an interview at Camp Buehring that as far as he knew, every vehicle deploying to Iraq from Kuwait had at least "Level 3" armor protection. That means it had locally fabricated armor for its side panels, but not bulletproof windows or reinforced floorboards.

Speer said he was unaware that soldiers were searching landfills for scrap metal and discarded glass.

However, Maj. Gen. Gus L. Hargett, the adjutant general of the Tennessee National Guard, disputed Speer's remarks. "I know that members of his staff were aware and assisted the 278th in obtaining these materials," he said.

At the Pentagon, spokesman Larry Di Rita said production of armored Humvees had increased from 15 to 450 a month since fall 2003, when commanders in Iraq started asking for them because of insurgents' heavy use of roadside explosives.

Overall, there are 19,000 armored Humvees in the Iraqi theater. Some were built with additional armor, others had it added on later. That's, 2,000 short of what commanders are asking for, Di Rita acknowledged.

Military policy is that troops driving into Iraq in Humvees drive only in armored ones, Di Rita said. Some $1.2 billion has been included in the defense budget to pay for armored vehicles, he said.

U.S. GIs Hit Rumsfeld With Hard Questions

This matter about insufficient armor isn't new. I don't blame those soldiers who are now in trouble for not following orders. Technically, they shouldn't be in trouble if their story is true, because that would make the orders illegal and criminal to carry out.

It also blows me away how Rumsfled actually has the balls to say something like "You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can (still) be blown up,"! Then armor isn't necessary? Then why give some units any armor at all? What a crock of shit!

[Phoenix]

http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2004...firepaste3.asx

solution

[CET]

Originally posted by Phoenix
http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2004...firepaste3.asx

solution

Do you have a link that doesn't involve streaming, maybe something to download. Streaming technology fuckin blows, I can almost never get a good connection and actually watch or listen to something without random long breaks for "buffering".

[Doctor Dre]

he got told

[VeriSexy]

Where the hell does all the money go? They spend 400 Billion a year and still need to look for scrap?

[nmcog]

Originally posted by Phoenix
http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2004...firepaste3.asx

Is it supposed to be installed on Humvees in Iraq on the windows and doors?

The insurgents are using such powerful military-grade explosives that they looted from the Iraqi weapons dumps as their roadside bombs, that nothing will keep the humvee intact, let alone save the lives of the 4+ soldiers in it.

Watch the videos for yourself:
http://www.terroristmedia.com/

[Project-Shadow]

Originally posted by Phoenix
http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2004...firepaste3.asx

solution

I've seen that before, it's a very good starting point, but to be beneficial you'll have to make it much smaller. For personal use anyway, for vehicles its almost perfect.

"It wouldn't matter if it was Bush himself standing there," she said. "He would have dissed him the same."

Her intellegence astounds me...

[CET]

Originally posted by nmcog
Is it supposed to be installed on Humvees in Iraq on the windows and doors?

The insurgents are using such powerful military-grade explosives that they looted from the Iraqi weapons dumps as their roadside bombs, that nothing will keep the humvee intact, let alone save the lives of the 4+ soldiers in it.

Watch the videos for yourself:
http://www.terroristmedia.com/

Can you be a little more specific? There's lots of videos there and I really don't want to see any beheadings or anything like that. I've seen enough of those and I don't need to see any more death porn.

[kmanrox]

welcome to yesterday

[CET]

Originally posted by kmanrox
welcome to yesterday

Dude, Associated Press just put this out 2 HOURS ago. Get off the high horse.

[nmcog]

Originally posted by CET
Can you be a little more specific? There's lots of videos there and I really don't want to see any beheadings or anything like that. I've seen enough of those and I don't need to see any more death porn.

All the old videos seem to be disabled after a server move. But most of the vids showed such big road side bombs, that i don't believe anything will survive it. You can clearly see that even the tanks were destroyed with all their armour and protection. They must be using 1,000lb+ bombs.

[kmanrox]

Originally posted by CET
Dude, Associated Press just put this out 2 HOURS ago. Get off the high horse.

you are incorrect sir... Do you not watch CNN? Over 16 hours ago I was watching this on CNN Asia... and CNN Asia gets info LONG AFTER CNN USA...

pull yourself away from dialup porn BBS and welcome to the new millenium where we have this TeleVision thing.

[nmcog]

Originally posted by CET
There's lots of videos there and I really don't want to see any beheadings or anything like that.

I've started to avoid them too. But I do Strategic Studies at college and really find it necessary to watch the propoganda from the other side. You can clearly see in earlier videos how they store/build/modify the bombs and the attacks.

[CET]

Originally posted by kmanrox
you are incorrect sir... Do you not watch CNN? Over 16 hours ago I was watching this on CNN Asia... and CNN Asia gets info LONG AFTER CNN USA...

pull yourself away from dialup porn BBS and welcome to the new millenium where we have this TeleVision thing.

No, I donh't watch CNN or ANY television. Why in the fuck would I pay some company $50 a month to pipe in 70 channels of shit into my home? Just in case someone on GFY might have seen a story on CNN before it comes out on wire serviece?

Further, read the story, there's a time stamp on it. The time stamp says that it was put out around 2 hours ago.

[nmcog]

Originally posted by CET
No, I donh't watch CNN or ANY television. Why in the fuck would I pay some company $50 a month to pipe in 70 channels of shit into my home?

Guess I'm not the only one who feels that way!

[theking]

Originally posted by nmcog
Is it supposed to be installed on Humvees in Iraq on the windows and doors?

The insurgents are using such powerful military-grade explosives that they looted from the Iraqi weapons dumps as their roadside bombs, that nothing will keep the humvee intact, let alone save the lives of the 4+ soldiers in it.

Watch the videos for yourself:
http://www.terroristmedia.com/

The armor that is being used on Humvees will only protect the occupants from some small arms fire...not all small arms fire. It will not protect them from RPG's or most IED's. Even heavily armored tanks are vunerable to large IED's. Does the armor being used on Humvees save some lives...yes...but will not save the majority of lives when they are hit by RPG's or most IED's. The concussion from a large IED alone will probably kill everyone in an armored Humvee. Humvees were not designed to be APC's and can never become APC's for a multitude of reasons. The armor is really more for morale then being "real" protection...although as I stated it will protect one against some small arms fire.

[MBS Auto]

I hate Politicians...........

[titmowse]

bombastic, fustian balderdash...

[SuckOnThis]

'Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.'


What a fuckin moron.

[kane]

while the armor on the cars may not protect them from RPG and large caliber guns and bombs and such, it will protect againt many small arms. I think if we are sending our military into battle they should have the best stuff we can give them and they should have equiptment that gives them every chance of survival.

Right now in Iraq there are around 40,000 troops that do not have a bullet proof jacket. Most of the national guard troops that are called up are sent there with vietnam era M-16's. This is unacceptable. They say they can't afford it yet bush just signed a bill that will give 10billion in aid to tobacco farmers because they aren't making as much profit as they used to because less people are smoking these days. I'm not an economist nor am I a military leader but I know 10 billion could buy a lot of AR-15's and Flak Jackets.

[nmcog]

Originally posted by theking
The armor that is being used on Humvees will only protect the occupants from some small arms fire

I completely agree, but what I meant is if they used the protection from the video link posted above (which protects against RPGs, snipers, grenades, etc.) on all the doors and windows (which would cover 90% of the windows and be practically unusuable. It's just a lab toy IMHO).

[nmcog]

Originally posted by SuckOnThis
'Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.'
What a fuckin moron.

Yeah I saw that... He probably did it to get more time to think of an answer (which was a shit one anyway).

[nmcog]

After the attack that killed 4 British soldiers in a roadblock (which was a HUGE fucking van-bomb according to the vid the insurgents released), they started to use helicopters instead of armoured vehicles to move around and set up instant random roadblocks.

The insurgents then didn't have enough time to plan an attack on it, as the soldiers didn't stay for long.

[BuggyG]

Originally posted by Phoenix
http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2004...firepaste3.asx

solution

saw that report on tv when it came out
looks very good and seems to me like a nice idea to add to your equipment

[xclusive]

It's about time the fact that we are still there is bullshit...

[EviLSuperstaR]

Originally posted by VeriSexy
Where the hell does all the money go? They spend 400 Billion a year and still need to look for scrap?

Bush's beloved tax cuts for the wealthy