one fiddy. See sig :Graucho :winkwink:

I've never heard or seen you guys attack Mansion. And after reading a few posts in this thread and another one, I see where you are just stating the facts about the features. It's the other webmasters out there who start the attacks.


If someone wants to target an enemy, how about those fucking fake Rolex watch spams I get everyday. Or the generic drug spams. This is a major issue and problem for both webmasters and surfers. I'm losing important emails because I have so fuckin' many bullshit spams in my business email folder.


My only point I was making in my post is I like both companies and wish people would settle down and pick their fights wisely. There are much bigger battles to fight then placing blame on a shaving feature.

Final thought. Isn't a program with a shaving feature like a bong sold in a store? You're allowed to sell it and buy it, everyone knows what it's intended for. But the user is the one who gets in trouble if caught using it. So if there are enemies out there, go after the user of the program that shaved you. If you got busted smoking out of a bong in the middle of a convention floor, they would arrest you, not the bong maker.

Have you ever sued anyone? Even if you have a valid complaint and all the proof in the world suing someone is a very expensive proposition.

D$: I admire your attempts at diplomacy but the simple fact still remains. If an unethical feature was built into the system at the request of unethical webmasters then that does not make the company any less culpable just because only unethical companies used the feature...

I think a more accurate analogy would be if a person asks a CPA to help them cheat on their taxes and the CPA agrees then that CPA is still just as guilty of being a cheat as the guy trying to slide on paying taxes.

Ethics are not transient.

So even if a company is successfully hiding their shaving and webmasters are happy with the payouts regardless that simply does not excuse the fact that those webmasters are still getting burned.

And I know this is starting to sound like a broken record but whatever stats program people use there are still ways to cheat.

Examples that comes vividly to mind are issuing false credits and/or cancels. That is a form of shaving that does not show up in logs of uniques, conversions from trials, etc.

If any webmaster is concerned about shaving then I recommend asking for an audit of the program. Then you will really get a dose of reality of who is running a legit operation vs. those that claim to be but are not.

Looks like no ones winning shit on this one. (Go figure)

I think it is pretty simple, do like we do in the mainstream software business. Have a 3rd party independent tester, test and certify the programs are shave free. Im sure if a independent group finds both to be clean and free of these modules there will be no more questions about these shave modules. Also they should make these reports availible to the webmaster community so everyone can see for themselves. Business is business and both have a great product and deserve kudos for all the hard work put into them, but affliates need to know someone else (besides the owner of the software or webmaster program) is looking out for their best interest. Personally if there was a indepdendent auditor picked by all parties involved that certified both systems are shave free that would be enough for me. just my :2 cents:

Here is a pretty simple way:
1: you add webmasters ref codes to the join page (so they can see them with view source), and give them access to third party billers (ccbill, ibill , epoch etc), very easy to do, add them set payout 0% and the program owner still process payments.
2: You show country stats, first page impressions, second page impressions, join page, approvals and declines. Also very simple and easy to do.
3: Realtime stats, no 1 second delay or anything. Also pretty simple, make a MySQL HEAP table and have a seperate stats table for last 5 minutes or whatever, every 5 minutes process stats like usual and truncate the heap table.
4: Keep the webmaster ID in the URL through the entire "surfing process" through the site. The webmaster will always be able to see their ID and if it change.
5: Keep the third party click through tracker that is included now and make a way so the webmasters can compare stats.
Offcourse shaving would still be possible, it is possible with all programs including NATS.
It would'nt take a good programmer more than a few hours to fiure out how to beat a anti shave alogrithm no matter what program you use.
Most used excuse is perhaps "glitch with server clustering"
5 servers in total, 4 acting normal, 1 is not plugged into the database. Wuups there goes 20% of the signups, and offcourse it is always a hardware error

No updates on the "anti shave prize" ?
Guess it isn't that important to have a "no shave script" then :Graucho