We know that everything that happens in a movie is fake/fantasy. When I see a thumbnail gallery, how do I know if it's fake or not. Why take it any further, I think lolita word is already questionable
lolita=A seductive adolescent girl
and adolescent is minor

My 2 cents:

I've heard that both guys and girls fantasize about rape. Girls actually fantasize about being raped. I would think obviously by someone that they would want to have sex with and not some freak. I assume guys vice versa. But anyway... that's something to think about...

CD, I was writing about 2 groups of ppl: "normal" and "sick".
1. Even we normals can be manipulated. That's the reason why every dictator tries to controll all medias and all schools. If you tell the people often enough that humans with another skin color or another nose form are worthless shit and should be killed as soon as possible, than finaly you will have people who believe this shit.
And most of us are doing the same the whole day: we try to manipulate people to click on a link or to buy a product. That's the real thing in advertising: not information about a new product, but manipulation. An example for a successful manipulation are Pepsi and Coke. We all have seen the vids with people in a blind test: these people claimed that they can recognize Pepsi and Coke by the taste, they were 100% sure. But they could not in a blind test, because there are no differences in the taste.
2. And that is about "normal people". The discussions how free a human is in his decisions is one of the oldest of the world. But all parties in this discussion agree in one point: there are ppl who are not free.
One group are childrens, the others are addicts and psychos.
I was talking about psychos, they are abolutly not free. You can manipulate them intentinaly, but you can manipulate them by accidental too. And showing rape fantasies to a psycho is a manipulation, you create or you strenghten the wish for a real rape.
3. Something completly different are pornography and violence presented to normal ppl. In most cases, they create a kind of relieve. I remember some years ago, when I had a shit day and played two hours doom or quake: after 2000 killed monsters I was feeling better.
And I'm sure (I don't have seen a statistic about the following): a country where normal pornography is not allowed has more real rapes and attacks on women or childs or gays as a liberal country where pornography is allowed. And you know the countries where sex or nudity are a crime: these countries are the most violent countries at all (this has nothing to do with the islam, living under Savanorola or under the most catholic majestics in Spain was not funny at all).
4. And something completly different are these strange stories when conservatives politicans and mass medias and lawyers of murders are starting their campaigns against directors or producers because they dislike the politic ideas of these ppl. There are some more cases, but I can remember "natural born killers" and "friday the 13th". And here you are absolutly right, CD: it's nothing else but censorship and repressions.
5. And brainless, don't bother to reply if you didn't read the post you want to reply too.

There is a difference, and I can taste it. Pepsi makes me hurl. Coke is alot different and easily recognized over that other crap.

Also... have you noticed that in the Pepsi commercials, they are always comparing themselves to Coke. The REAL Thing baby. But in Coke's commercials... never is Pepsi so much as even mentioned. They don't need to compare themselves, because they know they got the real deal. Pepsi is nothin' more than an inferior Coke wannabe ripoff.

I have one fetish bit of content, which could be considered 'marginal'

so inside the pay member area, there is a few sentences describing the pics in no uncertain terms as a fantasy scenario

in any kind of bondage, sado, s & m scenes... there is a kind of consent and willing participation... this could definitely be depicted and described the 'wrong' way with a webmaster's text



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of course there's a difference, consuming both in large quantities will result in diabetic. I prefer coke.

All the good drinks are made with Coke. Rum 'n Coke, not Rum 'n Pepsi... Jack 'n Coke, not Jack 'n Pepsi... plus, ya just gotta love a product that started out with Cocaine as an ingredient. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif

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Sorry... just ignore that... I was hammered & incoherent.

I don't post any Fake or real rape pics, It is disgusting. It exploits the people who have been raped. Why would anyone want to do that. It is FUCKING sick.
Now what would really be cool is too show a woman using her 3rd degree black belt on a attacker http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif Now that is exhilerating.


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I agree with you totally...

This must be your own opinion, because I've found nothing in the way of government or university studies to support this statement. It is unfounded.

You then go on to say exactly what I said earlier, you say that "normal" porn is an outlet, and you also say that violent video games are an outlet for your own aggressions. Tell me Hienz, who decides who is sick and who is normal? Do you really believe that allowing the "psychos" to look at your "normal" porn is going to be any better? Why do you think that fantasy sites would be any less of a harmless outlet for those that have such fantasies?

You still seem to be missing my point here. I agree that real rape is awful, and if I ever see it occuring, some dumb fuck is gonna get hurt on a grand scale. I agree that we all have the right to not post submitted galleries containing anything we don't like personally. But I disagree with descriminating against people's rights to have fantasies and indulge those fantasies through fantasy movies or websites. The fact is, there are literally thousands of these "dark fetish" and dark fantasy sites out there on the net flourishing right now, and they are getting traffic to them to the tune of 100's of thousands of hits per day. These extreme niche sites are getting members by the score (many of whom are women), and all of those people would say they have as much right to their space on the internet as you and your porn site. And I fully agree with it. The line is drawn where there is content involved that will hurt someone (hate crimes/inciting violence) or if the making of the content has hurt someone (CP, real rape etc).

Trying to rationalize a crackdown on fantasy is a waste of time. I can assure you Hienz, my government could tell me I should hate anyone non-Canadian, or I could watch thousands more violent movies (I've seen them all) and I still wouldn't be driven to commit any violent acts myself and I wouldn't hate anyone (except for maybe the punkass terrorists). How easily manipulated are you? I could visit and look at a million rape sites, but I'd be no more inclined to commit a real rape than I am now, which is not at all. I think that if I did have such fantasies, that I would be happy that I have a place to go where I can indulge my fantasy without hurting anyone though. I can dig up a link or two for papers and articles that suport this.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 09-28-2001).]

My finger smells funny.

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First a short resume what the post was about: it was about the effect of rape fantasies to a certain group of people, not about the effect to me or to you. I call these ppl psychos, other people give them other names. These ppl have all prerequisites to become a sadistic murder. Often it is the simple case of good luck or bad luck what they will do: do they go home as usualy or do they start their first attack. There are at least 2 cases recorded with bad luck: the german serial murder and rapist Heinrich Pommerenke and the english vampire John George Haigh. Pommerenke saw a movie, and suddenly he knew that the women are the source of evil and that he had to punish and kill them (it was not a rape movie but the Ten Commandments http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif ). Haigh has his first vision of slaughtering and blood drinking - in a church. It happend in one moment to the next that they crossed the border. There are enough sickos around, and there is no need to give them the chance to cross the border.

Really ridicilous are the opinions about manipulations. That is exactly what most of us are doing. It never happend that a surfer entered your site with the clear idea: I need more informations about the best teen site for 29,95 with 70,000 pics and 100,000 vids. You or We are telling him that he needs this.
We manipulate and we get manipulated. But you can't manipulate a normal person as far as a child or a mental sick person. You can manipulate a child in every direction you want (it's called education), and if you find the button by a schizophrene you need only to click to manipulate in one direction (not in every). But you can't manipulate a normal adult in a completly different direction. You can not sell a teen site to a gay, you can not manipulate a police officer with a strong opposition to certain movies that the officer will try to realise these movies.

That is the point: normal vs sick. That's the point why the canadian study doesn't show negative effects - there are no effects for normal ppl. And that's the point why your outlet modell doesn't work. Normal porn has this effect for normal ppl: they calming down. Psychos don't calm down, they get no satisfaction, the pressure doesn't drop down but increases. And that's the point concerning violence in the news or in a movie: I don't masturbate when I see pics of the victims and I don't masturbate when I see Bruce Willis killing some criminals. And you don't do this too.

And there is another big misunderstanding: there are pornography and sex. And there is rape. And rape has nothing to do with sex. It's not a kind of sexuality with some aggressions, it's pure aggression without sexual lust.

And the bottom line is: if rape fantasy is ok, is kiddyporn fantasy ok too?

And the rest is bullshit. Plain and simple. Every dictatur trys to get all mass media and all education institutions, so they have the medium for hate speaches.It started with Goebbels and it didn't stop with Saddam or Khomeni.

And Mika and CoreDump: let me know when you will be 18, if I have time I will show you than what adult entertainment means.

And the truth about the great imperalistic Pepsi/Coca conspiration: tomorrow.

And before I write more sentences starting with "And": good night.

No, I covered this in my earlier posts, you must have missed it. Look for the section that talks about real harm vs. fantasy. But there again, I'd much rather have a few people fantasizing about CP, murder or rape than ACTUALLY DOING IT.

Don't bring up serial killers, it's a stupid nowhere aspect to the argument. And, if that one psycho says he took his cue to commit crimes against women from the movie "The Ten Commandments" should we then outlaw all biblical movies in case there are more such psychos lurking about?

How far should we "Clean up the net" in the name of preventing your "psychos" from seeing anything that might set them off? What about all the responsible people who just surf to enjoy and indulge their own private fantasies that are none of our fucking business? Should they all be denied because you are afraid of what MIGHT happen?

As Juge said, there are also many many women who have fantasies of rape under certain circumstances. I was very surprised to learn this from a group of women a few years back. They showed me magazine articles that had interviews with several dozen women from a cross-section of women from NY and Chicago, from store clerks to office managers, and the % was quite shocking actually.

Hienz, no one is or should be advocating rape or anything illegal. But the right to have fantasies is not for you or I to dictate. I don't see how anyone would want to argue this point, it only shoots yourself in the foot, but not everyone sees clearly enough to realize this.

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I don't know about that ... maybe you did some research on the serial killers and it gave you some ideas ...
Or worse ... you want me to be your girfriend http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif

CD,
you miss completly what my posts are about. I never talked about censorship or punishment for thoughts. You mixed up the "fantasy" part. I didn't wrote anything about a rape fantasy in your brain. Rape fantasy in this thread means: pics or movies with simulated rape. And the theme is still. what effects have rape pix or movies. I used the case of the TenCommandments as an example for that these people are like Nitroclycerine. A light vibration and the escalation of violence goes a step furher. And I still believe: if even such a movie can be the trigger, what will happen if one of them sees pix or movies?
This doesn't mean that everything that could work as a trigger for the psychos should
be prohibited. But rape pix or videos have only on function: they give the potential killer the feeling that rape, violence or lowering is ok. They don't work as an outleg but as an amplifyer for a small group. And that's the reason why I think that these files should be prohibited.

I disagree and it's that simple. And no, although it's hard to decipher some of your phrases and fragmented sentences, I see exactly what you are trying to say Heinz. I simply don't agree with you, and I have done extensive research on this subject over the past year, and so has my producer. If you take the time to read up on our own court case to do with the internet you'll see why I've taken the time to research this subject so thoroughly.

None of us including the prosecution side has any conclusive evidence to support what you are saying as true. It is your opinion only, it's that simple. And you have a right to that opinion, but you do not have a right to dictate to others what they can or can't fantasize about. Do you not understand this?

If a "psycho" as you call them are prone to violence or rape etc, no amount of websites or movies are going to make a bit of difference, they will do what they will do regardless, except in some cases where having their fantasies indulged innocuously will be enough to keep them happy and prevent them from doing harm.

There's no point in arguing further on this. The current laws here state that it is illegal to promote to incite real hate, real violence, or CP, and in some countries bestiality is illegal as well. I've found no law or internet law governing fantasy content. As it was said earlier, extreme bondage-with-sex galleries look an aweful lot like rape galleries too, it's in the way they are promoted, no more no less.

If we start stomping on every webmaster that has fantasy-only sites just because Heinz thinks it is bad, the what does that say about Heinz? What does that say about the rest of us holier-than-thou porn peddlers? Can we get over this and move on, and agree to disagree?

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Well....

Porn is porn.

No real people hurt? Then leave it. Everyone has a right for his fantasies. Or her. You'd be FUCKING amazed if You knew exactly how many women fantasise about rape and pay for it.

If You start prohibiting fantasies You'd only find someone will make money from it. Cause it has been always so. And I always thought noone likes places by the way where some thoughts are allowed and some not.

P.S.You doubt that there were no real people hurt?
Well doubt it better when You see a legal teen blowjob video from and unknown studio.

You're getting low, CD. It seems to hang around with Gary and AMP has rub off on you.

You can see this very often on boards and newsgroups: as soon as one part has no arguments, they are talking about spelling and grammar. It's really low. But if I find the time on monday, I will buy a new dictionary and I will forward your complains to altavista.

The next little trick: if you have no argument to a specific topic, talk about a completly different topic where you have some arguments.
I didn't post anything about the effects of rape files to normal ppl, but you ,CD, came with a study of the Canadian Government on Customs that has absolut nothing to do with the topic

Another favorite methode of people without arguments: what we write are the facts and we have done extensive research on this subject over the past year , but what you write is only your opinion. You started it with: "If someone's prone to committing real rape or any real crime, other studies have shown .....". And now I want to see these studies about your outlet theory. And remember the last paragraph: don't bother to come with studys about the reliefing effects for normal ppl or Bonobos. Name the studys about ppl with schizophrenia or another psychosis with a ruling aggresive component. And because you have done extensive research on this subject over the past year and you are now hanging around this board, I think 30 minutes are enough for some copy and paste. And don't forget the studies about the non-effects of TV: the last I heard was that there are some big companies spending millions of $$ to reach these effects. And I believe to remember that Bush and Gore spend most of their money for TV spots.

Because I didn't find your statement about kiddyporn fantasy files: Hot is it, CD? Photos of vids are bad, but drawings of kiddyporn are ok for you? Oops, what a silly question. I forgot that you are an expert in international laws. I'm sure you can post some criminal codes from different countries where I can read that drawings of kiddyporn are allowed.

Heinz, stop whining. You can't deny that it's difficult to understand some of your writings. "bonobos"??? What the hell is that?

I'd be more interested to see any official studies or proof to back up what you said in a few of your posts here. You are like the people that blame TV violence for the Columbine massacre. They had no solid evidence either, and neither do you. Why do you continue beating your point to death?

And my comments about the Canada customs study was not only relevant to this topic but extremely relevant, it addressed some comments made about the long-term effects of violent entertainment on normal people, but again I guess I'm being low if I say it seems you don't get it. I don't know about YOUR point, but MY point is that dark fetish fantasy content for the purposes of entertainment has no effect long-term on average people, and does in some cases provide an outlet for some people that are less than average in some ways. The other part of my point was that we can't and shouldn't be promoting more censorship, and that people's own fantasies should be their own, period. Again, I don't see what is so hard to figure out about this or why these valid points must be argued to death.

And incognita (bullfinch?), your first points are very good, but that last "PS" left me wondering something....
the problem with your thinking in that last point is that, in order to actually MAKE a real teen blowjob video, real teens had to be used, no? This is again confusing reality with fantasy. Same with CP, real kids had to be used at some point, or underage people had to be depicted. In adult fantasy, only adults are participating and it's about fantasy play-acting, nothing is real and no-one get's hurt by it. Anything less is likely illegal, as it should be.

Heinz -- you've now made 2 or 3 bold statements about what harm fantasy content does (not "might do", you said it does) to the extremely sick-minded population of the world. How about you show me the proof. Also, if we were to ban everything that might be bad for the sickos like it seems you're suggesting, we'd have to remove all chat rooms and message boards, all horror movie content, some people are set off by watching disney shit so out goes their site too. Where does it end?

what is it you want Heinz? What? I'm here speaking up for freedom of expression, but what is it exactly that YOU are promoting?

[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 09-29-2001).]

We should start burning books too. Oh wait... that's already been done.

Sometimes my calendar throws me into a fit of rage and makes me want to kill golfers. I hope they ban golf calendars soon so I can stop my uncontrollable urges.

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[This message has been edited by Amputate Your Head (edited 09-29-2001).]

Hey Heinz, WTF do you mean? I was talking about fantasies, not adult entertainment. Don't you see a difference between psychology and adult porn business? Guess not, it's all about stats for you, right?

It's not even about legal or illegal..... it is a MORAL issue in my opinion. How can ANYONE make a call when looking at still pics whether it is real or not real unless as Rip says, there is a disclaimer on it that says exactly that it is fantasy?

I am sooo NOT a believer that watching violent movies makes one prone to violence either. I am raising 4 kids and they watch violence on TV, I don't censor alot of what they watch unless it is just downright filth. But be real folks, even the damn cartoons on Nick and Cartoon Network have violent scenes in them........ good grief!! If a person is prone to violence they are going to do it no matter what they see or hear anywhere. That's a well known fact as well. You CAN teach your kids that this is fake and they are just acting, but if you want to cut violence out of their lives then you must turn off the NEWS and the CARTOONS...... be real people. Rationalize it in YOUR heads so you may then rationalize it in theirs.

And I also believe that we do not get to choose what we fantasize about in all cases....... our thoughts are not always controllable, but how we REACT to those thoughts damn well are!!

I know I sound like I am contradicting myself on these points, but I am really not. It's all about how it is interpreted here...... if as Rip says, it is extreme fetish but he has a disclaimer that no one was hurt during the making of these pics...... then fine, knock yourself out. But let me hand you a bunch of poloroids of what APPEARS to you as rape or murder ........ are you going to ASSUME they are real or take for granted they are, or are you going to assume they are fakes? It's all in interpretation and how they are presented to you.

I won't post rape pics at ALL on my sites for the simple fact, I can't be the one to decide whether the pics YOU have sent me are real or not real........... see what I am saying? As a VICTIM of rape, had there been pics taken and they circulated, I would be horrified if I went to a site and seen someone was making money off my horror. Rape does alot of damage, as someone else said in another post here, and it is a horror that does NOT go away...... so I will not be promoting these types of pics in any way. Seeing what APPEARS to be rape pics to me brings back more than I even care to think about, much less bring into words, so it is a personal, a VERY personal issue on my part.

I hope I have cleared myself up on some level....... fantasies are fine......... but when you want me to decide whether ths is your fantasy or whether someone actually got hurt, well I just can't do that and sleep at night.

Tam

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Exactly what Tam said!

I must admit I find it interesting that all of the women that have posted at any length in this post have come out strongly against posting such galleries.

From some of the men we get responses like 'well women have rape fantasies'.

oh..and before anyone jumps of me. I am not a feminist..I am a sociologist.

There are so many conflicting studies (I have had to read many of them because of my degree) about wether rapists (or pedos for that matter) are encouraged by the images they see or what they read. So, for anyone to make a definative statement about such a subject is foolish and unstudied.

I will stay on the side of caution.

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Felt that I should explain my previous "P.S."
http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif

Most here I think assume that if the pic is a fantasy and not real and was performed by actors than fine - no problem...But some do also ask how can You be sure that there was no rape there even if it is said so.

What I meant is that You probably cant. But You cant be sure in regular porn that noone was hurt either. Anyone can be raped, drugged and it's pics sold as regular teen fuck for example. In the end unless You were there when the content was filmed You can never be sure in anything.

Also bear in mind that it is extremely difficult to protect ON PUBLIC something like Rape Fantasy and though I guess most of people who ever thought about the subject will agree that there's no harm in such a fantasy performed by actors, just as I said - porn is porn, still it takes a greater man to say it out loud.

Just my point of view. Sorry for english.




[This message has been edited by Incognito (edited 09-29-2001).]

And again I remind you that my point was not about the choice of posting or not posting galleries, that's everyone's own judgement call. I only took issue with the fact that some people are too quick to advocate censorship when all we are really dealing with are someone's own fantasies. That's all.

It's not something I think anyone should be arguing about either, because any right-thinking person knows that real rape/violence and the promotion of it is wrong period. That includes posting content on your tgp's that you don't like. Don't do it, it's as simple as that, and I agree fully. It's about the right for others to share their fantasies online, and there are many sites that say right on their warning pages that what the surfer is about to see is fantasy and NOT real, and involves consenting adults and NOT children. Those sites should be allowed to exist, and I take strong issue with anyone yelling for the censorshit police to come down on them. Freedom of expression online must be for everyone, not just what you or I think is right.

You ladies make some very excellent points. I can definitely see where being a victim of rape would make one tense up even if the movie scene or website is fantasy-only. But I too wince and tense up when I see certain scenes or images that trigger memories from my own past troubles. The similarity is that we don't try to eradicate all sites or movies that make us uncomfortable, we simply exercise our right to not view them, whereas others seem to want to enforce their opinions on the entire human race.

There will always be material in movies and on the net that we don't like or have no interest in. But if it's presented properly and responsibly then it is legal, and I'll defend it's right to exist even though I may not like it myself. It's called freedom, and it must apply to all or none.

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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 09-29-2001).]

Ugh! Pornographers with MORALs.....

Rape FANTASY is just that....fantasy...
the crime of rape is about power, not sex...

women's rape fantasies aren't so much about being raped rather than being overpowered...a good friend of mine (female) once said she preferred to call them "ravishment fantasies"

A lot of what is being talked about here is personal taste. I saw a post sauying "if there's blood, it's out" well, I guess there goes my vampire galleries and bloodletting galleries... ;) Bloodletting is a consensual form of sex play...does that mean it shouldn't be allowed on a website? It's just as consensual as tying some chick up and smacking her with a bit of leather....I have friends who are into bloodplay, should they not be allowed to participate in their LEGAL fantasy because some self righteous webmaster/webmistress says is shouldn't be allowed...well, you know what...I find pissing sites putrid, maybe we should ban them? I get sickened by ugly chicks..maybe we should ban all sites who feature anything but the loveliest of porn supermodels?

Stop confusing your personal morality with legality...kp? it's illegal...bestiality? technically not illegal (depends upon your jurisdiction)....rape fantasy? perfectly legal...my PERSONAL morals reside within what's legal...I'm not in this business to look at porn or jerk off...I'm here to make money...if it's legal, I'm going to attempt to make money off it...if it's a niche that truly sickens me like pissing sites..I simply don't promote them, but I'm sure as hell not going to get on a high horse and start preacing to others what to do...remember, we're in the PORN business...what we do is casue for death in some countries...so, why don't some of you "holy porners" go over to Saudi Arabia and tell them what you do? Especially the women...

the reason I don't have any rape fantasy sites/galleries? those TOS of some programs...TOS I pay attention to....

As for the webmistress who lets her children just sit and watch violent programming...are you aware of a study that showed that young children who are exposed to violent images tend to be more aggressive with playmates?

Oh well, have fun kids and be nice before someone loses an eye....

Well, you know those there "pissing" galleries and "poopsex" galleries could incite some sickos to go out to public parks and picnic areas and piss/defecate in front of innocent people so....

Nope, we better ban them http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif


Jeez, good points Sykk. I would add that if we're always afraid of what "might" happen then there would BE no entertainment industry, except for a big purple dino named Barney. But then the suicide rate would skyrocket, so Barney's out too.

SykkBoy2..... this would be ME you are referring to and yes I am well aware that people have said this, yes...... and this is not ALL my kids watch, I just don't censor them as much as some people do. And as far as them being agressive with their playmates? Yeah ok, that's why my kids have all won congeniality awards and such. Have one on Home school and works full time, was even offered a management position becaus of her people skills........ she is 17, have another who is on the academic team and has wond many awards for his kindness to his classmates, he has also been nominated for the Gifted and Talented list...... he is 12......... and my youngest son? Well I just got a letter from his teacher telling me how well rounded and intelligent he is and how helpful he is with his classmates, and what a joy he is to have in her class. How many teachers you know call their students parents to tell them how WELL their kids are doing in school? This one is 7........ and my youngest, well she is not in school yet and she is a bit more abrasive, but she is the baby and only 3...... and watches ONLY Nickalodean........ I htink I spelled that wrong. LOL

Yeah I suppose you are right........ damn these violent movies are just absolutely RUINING my kids......... what was I thinking? Should I cut them off the news too? That's about the most violent thing on TV........ nahh....... I have nothing to worry about as far as the effect violent TV is having on my kids....... what I WOULD be concerned about is if they were experiencing this in my home, which they are not taught this, and it is not tolerated. As long as they are not hurting or disrespecting anyone, they are doing ok. If one of these things come up then we deal with it ASAP........ so no I am so NOT a believer in simply WATCHING violence also TEACHES violence, it is MY job to teach them right from wrong and I am doing this. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/wink.gif

Being a porn webmaster does not give us an open end ticket to be immoral and disrespectful of others and I think SOME people could benefit from this lesson. And you are right, this is a matter of opinions and I am strong about my opinions, always have been. BUT if it is MY site, I have the right to make such opinions.

As for Vampire galleries......... shit I have no problem with this, providing BOTH or all parties are consenting, to each his own. LOL

Tam

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[This message has been edited by Battuss (edited 09-29-2001).]

I'll have to agree with Tam on this one. I am 100% positive that kids develop aggressive tendancies from the example set by their parents. There are a few exceptions to everything in this world, but USUALLY kids tend to emulate and develop hangups directly from the behavior of their idiot parents.

I watched tons of violent shit on TV when I was a kid, even the most violent Bugs Bunny cartoons (all of which were censored back in the late 80,s right?), but my parents set a good example for me, and they helped me develop the presence of mind to THINK before I act, not just react and take out my aggressions on others. (Like some kids do/did).

I percieve Tam as a person who cares a great deal about her kids, one that sets a good example around them (and misbehaves like sin when she's NOT around them http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif ) I think a caring parent will have some good communication channels open to his or her kids at all times for all things, and watching tv violence isn't going to create a new wave of criminals, but stupid parents might.

Maybe we should ban stupid parents.

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CD, you bigmouth,
you started with your studies to proove everything you write, so post it or stop it.
You have made extensive researches and found no law or internet law governing fantasy content? Strange thing, I spend 5 minutes and found 3 laws against (Austria, Germany, Swiss) and one that allows fake kiddyporn (USA). Looks like you are nothing but a little liar with all your studies and researches.

"If we start stomping on every webmaster that has fantasy-only sites just because Heinz thinks it is bad, the what does that say about Heinz?"
I don't know what it says about me, but it says everything about webmasters posting this shit: if you post it, you promote it. There are no galleries saying: I post now pix, but it's not ok, so don't do it. If you post a gallery you say: That's the right thing, let's do it, happy masturbation.
Post a fake rape gallery or a fake kiddyporn gallery, most ppl will hit the back-button, but some will enjoy it, and they will understand your message that rape and kiddyporn are fine.

And because the master of researches seems to have a little problem how to use a search engine: Bonobos are apes, they are now considered to be the next relations to humans. And while chimpanzees solve their conflicts with violence and repression, bonobos solve their conflicts with sex, not only with heterosexual copulations but with heterosexual and homosexual masturbating too. That's the reason why the behaviour of bonobos is a standard argument in discussions about repressive sexual systems.

And Mika:
"As far as rape fantasy is concerned, IMO stories are ok, but not fake pics" - Give me a call when you are 18.

Heinz. No comment. Target your hatred somewhere else.

I like monkeys. Especially in black leather chaps. SPANK THAT MONKEY! http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif


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BITCH SLAPPIN' STUPID PEOPLE EVERYWHERE

Heinz, why do You think that fantasy rape in the internet actually has anything to do with real rape in life?

And have You ever seen FAKE child porn? Cause I dont get it - how can You fake 11 y.o. child having sex?

Is repeating yourself a sign of intelligence?

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Heinz, now you're just being a dipshit. Or maybe you're emulating a bonobos, I don't know.

Sadly, your conversation technique is sinking to a new low, and I've made my points 6 ways to next week, obviously with no effect where your concerned. You're now squirming and crying and attacking when you should be proving your theories. The reason for this is simple... you can't.

Get over it Heinz. If you're going to make such bold statements, be prepared to back them up next time.

Ummmm WHY fake something that is SO hurtful to the very gender that you expect sex from?

Arguing FOR this subject so as to cater to a handful of surfers that are already prone to this subject might very well BE encouraging them enough to commit the crime. So for a few doallrs to the pocket you are willing to even take a chance???

Argue the laws all you want. Its not illegal to shoot missiles at Mars either, but what might the results be if its done? We may never know those results. As far as faked CP? Seen it. The girls that look 15, that ARE 18 could very well encourage the peds to attack that 15 year old next door. But hey, thats not YOUR prob right? YOU just made some money, err used your legal right to show what the law said. Newsflash! I can't wait until the Feds get time to enforce the few laws they have that DO cover obscenity. Gone will be the so called fantasy murder-rape-beasty-severe bondage sites. More power to them! Insomuch as their dictating that a female isn't allowed to use a popbottle... well thats a lil more of an open subject that involves NO known laws that I am aware of. Tying IS a form of kidnap, animal IS a crime of nature (see necrophilia) murder-rape (even fantasy) IS femae degradation under US Fed laws. Want the laws? Look 'em up. Ignorance IS no excuse doncha know.

For you guys that think alot of women run around with that fantasy... I feel for you. Sorry that you were born with twisted brains or that maybe your Dad bounced you once too often. For others... I'll be the redhead in the back of the court cheering when the verdict comes down as GUILTY. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif

But get a clue... how many for how many females have responded in the negative here.

.

I hear ya. I just watched Terminator 2 and saw Arnold take over the CyberDyne building with all that heavy weaponry, and now I'm really motivated to go take over my first cybernetic research building. I've often thought of it... but seeing it, finally pushed me to a decision.



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BITCH SLAPPIN' STUPID PEOPLE EVERYWHERE

Originally posted by Gemini:
Ummmm WHY fake something that is SO hurtful to the very gender that you expect sex from?

For someone who seems pretty smart, this is a fairly ignorant question.

Arguing FOR this subject...

Hold on sister redhead. Where do you get the idea that anyone here is arguing FOR the concept of rape? I find the idea of rape to be utterly distasteful, as do I find the idea of killing someone in any way utterly distasteful. I also find those that use their own twist on arguments to further the cause of hindering free artistic expression to be just as distasteful, which you are now doing. When I run across a website or a movie that I find distasteful to me, I simply exercise my God-given right to not view it, and to go elsewhere. Weren't many of these points already made and dealt with on this thread? Not clearly enough for you I suppose.

so as to cater to a handful of surfers that are already prone to this subject might very well BE encouraging them enough to commit the crime.

Gee, again we should all be afraid of what "may very well be". Just as there are fantasy websites, so to are there scenes of rape & murder and violence on many many movies and TV shows. How far are you going to take this useless argument of yours?

So for a few doallrs to the pocket you are willing to even take a chance???

I don't see you shutting down your evil porn sites any time soon. They too may contribute to someone's delinquency, but life goes on, correct? Gem, you sound like the fantasy police here.

Argue the laws all you want. Its not illegal to shoot missiles at Mars either, but what might the results be if its done?

This type of analogy looks flashy on the surface, but anyone with a brain the size of a quarter-pounder with cheese will see through it as empty. Fact is, the laws are right now being stretched and twisted in ways you can't even imagine, all to suit the agenda of a FEW holier-than-thou moralists who actually want ALL of our sites off the internet. Please get a clue on this, I beg you. (wake the hell up)

We may never know those results. As far as faked CP? Seen it. The girls that look 15, that ARE 18 could very well encourage the peds to attack that 15 year old next door. But hey, thats not YOUR prob right?

Actually you're wrong here too. No, you're right about the faked CP and it's existance, but you're wrong about it not being my "prob." I've likely reported just as many CP sites as anyone here, for one thing. For another, if you were to make a movie containing sex with minors, and recruited 18 year-old girls and boys that looked younger to play the parts and depicted them in graphic sex scenes you'd likely get arrested anyway. All CP is illegal, and so is anything that implies CP including the hypothetical movie in this example.

BUT, including scenes of violence, rape or murder in a movie is not illegal if it's fantasy play-acting by consenting adults. If it wasn't legal, then you better go out and arrest Sharon Stone for her role in basic instinct, because that movie had it all baby. I've helped to amass a list a MILE long of movies that contain all that content and worse. All fantasy, all totally legal, yet my brother's movies containing similar f/x with NO sex are illegal? Now you know why we are suing on the grounds of selective prosecution for 10 million bucks.

I can't wait until the Feds get time to enforce the few laws they have that DO cover obscenity. Gone will be the so called fantasy murder-rape-beasty-severe bondage sites.

Believe what you want. The real facts are that the two precidents set in Canada covering this subject specifically say that movies (entertainment, websites too) that contain violence + sex in the EXTEME END OF THE SPECTRUM will almost always be in violation (illegal) but not always. That's from the Regina vs Butler decision. If you're talking about my brother's special f/x site, then this language doesn't apply, because there is no sex on that site, only simple nudity. The question then becomes Is simple nudity now considered to be extreme sex? Right there you are stretching a law to suit your own purpose and so are the cops.

The other precident is from R vs Sharpe, and it defines what is illegal as the law pertains to CP, and in this case simple nudity can in SOME cases be considered as sex, thus illegal. But again, only as it pertains to underage minors, <u>not</u> movies with consenting adults. Sorry, you're out of luck there too.

More power to them! Insomuch as their dictating that a female isn't allowed to use a popbottle... well thats a lil more of an open subject that involves NO known laws that I am aware of.

Yet there are people that want it banned and made illegal everywhere. Do you see how cheering on the proponents of censorship only shoots yourself in the foot in the long run?

Tying IS a form of kidnap

So you want all movies and sites where consenting adults are acting out these fantasies to be banned too? You should have been a cop Gem, you'd make a good one. What do you base the above statement on? If it's fantasy role-playing among consenting adults, what right do you have to go crapping on them? Who exactly do you think you are Gem? Why is it that YOUR opinion should be the right one here?


animal IS a crime of nature (see necrophilia)

What does bestiality (proper term, not "animal") have to do with necrophilia? Enlighten me officer Gem.
I agree however that bestiality should be illegal everywhere, because like CP it is not conducted by consenting adults.

murder-rape (even fantasy) IS femae degradation under US Fed laws.

Nope, not fantasy, sorry. For one thing, the FBI looked closely at my brother's site and deemed it to be legal under US law. For another thing, if your statement was true there would be thousands of movies of both big and small budgets pulled from circulation.

And, why is it only FEMALE degredation when there are also thousands of movies and sites that show scenes where men too are being shot, stabbed, impaled, tied up, tortured, degraded, and sodomized against their will etc etc etc but that get's not so much as a byline from you? Now why is that?

Want the laws? Look 'em up. Ignorance IS no excuse doncha know.

I have looked them up. I've been ready to present my defense to a real judge (not judge Gemini) for many months now. The holdup in our case is that the prosecution side is realizing slowly that they don't have the case they thought they did, so now they are negotiating with us to drop some of it. They have egg on their faces, and they have wasted taxpayer's money to the tune of a few million now, for nothing, and they've disrupted and crapped all over a lot of good people too. But that's no sweat off your back, right Gem?

For you guys that think alot of women run around with that fantasy... I feel for you.

Feel all you want. A good % of paying members at such sites ARE WOMEN, and not just any women either. From what I've seen in my limited travels through a few of these sites, many of the members are lawyers, doctors, politicians, retired cops, government officials, and many people in managerial positions. Surprise surprise how many people indulge their little private fantasies online and in the movie rental shops.

Sorry that you were born with twisted brains or that maybe your Dad bounced you once too often.

Yes, resort back to the smartass to drive your point forward, that'll win em over. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif
Good one Gem. I too am sorry, to see that such an intelligent woman as yourself is so utterly ignorant of what is right and wrong, so utterly blind to the fact that you are not only promoting censorship of free thought & expression but you are helping those that want to eventually wipe out our own part of the industry. (mainstream porn as it were). To me this makes no sense at all.

For others... I'll be the redhead in the back of the court cheering when the verdict comes down as GUILTY. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/biggrin.gif

Yes, you've said this before luv. What will you be doing when the virdict is the opposite? I don't know about other cases, but we've all but won ours already, it's just a matter of getting through the process. Gem, you really should have been at some of the latest proceedings on this case. There is so much to this case that someone on the sidelines like you will never know Gem, and it's really sad that you have been so quick to condemn without all the facts. You of all people should know that in order to make an INFORMED decision about anything you need ALL the facts. Anything less is uncivilized, not to mention conjecture couched in ignorance.

Now, an intelligent person would come back here and admit that on some levels maybe they were wrong, and start finding out exactly what the real facts are before jumping to judgements. The question is, are you really intelligent, or are you merely pretending?

[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 09-30-2001).]

Sometimes Guys its good to "agree to disagree"
Like Tam, I am a Mom too. I think we "Moms" watch things a little closer than the normal person. My 3 year old mainly watches pbs. PBS is a non violent cartoon station, and learning channel. I never really thought about the actual violence that is in regular cartoons I grew up watching, until one day she was watching a cartoon with the chicken and a dog, In which the chicken spanked the dogs ass and hit him in the head with a hammer. She freaked out saying.. "Mommy, why that chicken hitting him". anyway,
If you ever notice on regular tv, the violence is there, you see rape, murder, psychos, ect ect. We were watching CNN last night and they showed a taliban woman getting executed, shot in the back of the head. You should of seen me explaing that one. I am real picky on my sites about the content I post. I dont like to post some one who is bound and penetrated at the same time. Anal sex scares me, because it is illegal in some states. Beastiality really freaks me out too. You see that on alot of sites also. I guess the bottom line is.. Its your site, you are responsible for what you post. Hopefully it is legal. Another thing that really bugs me is all this "Lolita" shit. I am constantly having sites like this trying to trade with me. I have banned two this week. oh and "Barely Legal" and "school girl" shhessh I am done now http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif
Must be that full moon tonight...

Okay I know that this post is gonna get me in a lot of trouble ...but I just gotta add my 2 cents.

I was raped when I was 17.
But the really strange thing is that ever since it happened i actually do fantasise about being raped.
I Really get off on being scared out of my wits...it's not the rape that actually scares me - but whether or not I'm gonna get killed at the end of it.
Lately my big fantasy is being anally raped by a group of dirty wogs.

I know that sounds really sick and twisted and before anyone says anything YES! I have gone and seeked help - but apparently there is nothing wrong with me, and there are other women out there who feel the same way.

I'm not saying that rape is a good thing - by all means I think that those who commit it should be strung up by the balls.

But I just thought I would make the comment that some people do actually enjoy that sort of thing.

But then again some people wanna have sex with teddy bears ... so you tell me who's sick?

What is a group of dirty wogs?

Nice reply CD.

Heinz --

Here's one experts article on media violence and it's effects on kids: http://www.reason.com/sullum/012301.html

Dr. Neil Malamuth (we call him Malamouth) has been retained by the prosecution in our case to testify as to the "harm to society" angle, much like Gem and Heinz are insinuating here. Here is an article co-written by Dr. Malamuth that contradicts his own upcoming testimony:

Repeated Exposure to Violent and Nonviolent Pornography: Likelihood of Raping Ratings and Laboratory Aggression Against Women,
Neil M. Malamuth and Joseph Ceniti. In Aggressive Behavior, 12, 129-137. 1986.

"With respect to exposure effects, the results did not reveal that repeated exposure to violent or nonviolent pornography had any significant effect on laboratory aggression against women. These findings appear to be inconsistent with previous data showing that exposure to violent pornography may increase males' laboratory aggression toward women (e.g., Donnerstein, 1980a,b; 1984; Donnerstein and Berkowitz, 1981; Malamuth, 1978). The most apparent explanation for this discrepancy is that earlier investigations examined immediate effects (i.e., in same session that exposures were presented) whereas the present experiment tested for relatively long-term effects. It may be that exposure to violent pornography might have an immediate impact on aggressive behavior against women but this effect may dissipate quickly over time."

The asshole just contradicted himself. Here is the link to their entire study: http://www.apa.org/divisions/div46/MalamuthCeniti.html

I have many more such links to studies and official documents in our defense package. It take time to dig them out though. Now Hienz old boy, about your "Lier" comments....

Here's another example:
Sexuality on the Internet: From Sexual Exploration to Pathological Expression, Alvin Cooper, Coralie R. Scherer, Sylvain C. Boies, and Barry L. Gordon, American Psychological Association Journal, April 1999.

"In the media's portrayal-and therefore the public's perception-the sexual dimension of the Internet is likened to the sirens of mythology, an irresistible and corrupting force which lures "netizens" to the rocks. These are compelling images, but alas, like the sirens themselves, they are more fantasy than reality. Instead, this study found, and clinicians need to be aware, that most persons (92%) who go on-line for sexual pursuits do not spend excessive amounts of time at it and report very little interference in their lives."

Here's another one:
Sexually Explicit and Violent Media Material: research and policy implications, Compiled and written by Paul Wilson and Stephen Nugent. Trends & Issues in Criminal Justice No.9, Australian Institute of Criminology, December 1987

"A Joint Select committee of the Federal Parliament, under the chairmanship of Dr Richard Klugman, currently is considering the effects of video material upon Australian society. The Committee received a submission from the Australian Institute of Criminology reviewing the current status of international research on the impact of sexually explicit and violent behaviour.
The Institute submission contends that research presents some dilemmas for policy makers. On the one hand, there appears to be no sustainable research evidence of a causative link between media violence and violent criminal events. More particularly, a direct association between exposure to sexually violent media material and sexually aggressive behaviour has yet to be proven."

Want more? I got more. Anytime Heinz. Any fucking time.