richard123

There's only one correct answer to that question: No one is right. Everyone is right. That's part of the problem. I'll give $10 to anyone that comes up with an absoulte answer that will be accepted by the other side

Big Ben

20 and you?

Gemini

Im mid 40's with a couple of Israeli life long friends that live here part time for business. (Both in their mid 50's)One of which is a historian for business purposes. He says hold with 1948 since it was the 'official' COUNTRY lines. All previous lines were basically Empire lines that were never held and are no where near what the country lines are now.

So I trust his judgement. Not that it matters really. I won't go in to what both say about being US Allies.

UnseenWorld

You're right: it's too late to get rid of Israel (though if the Arabs do it on their own, democratically or otherwise, I'm not sure we should intervene to prop it up.

I'm just frustrated that so many people (including intelligent TV commentators) gloss over the real reason why we are in this position today. It was unjust to take the Palestinians' land away from them and now we are in the position of defending the indefensible.

And, like I said, Israel is on its way to becoming another South Africa. Where will we stand then?


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UnseenWorld

The one thing you probably can't deny is that had none of this shit taken place, the Trade Towers would likely still be standing and the world would be a much more peaceful place.

I'm not condemning or defending Jews or Palestinians or anyone else but US (we Americans and the United Nations) created this mess by meddling in Middle East politics in the first place. Something we didn't really need to do.

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UnseenWorld

Israel was Israel as a tribe, not as a fixed geographical country. The Zulus and McKenzie clan also preexisted all the countries with real political borders.

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UnseenWorld

drumsicle wrote:

I doesn't make sense. We give Egypt 2 billion a year and sell them all kinds of weapons. We blow the shit out of Iraq to liberate kuwait and protect Saudi.

My reply is:

If oil weren't at stake, we'd take no more interest than we have in some of the genocidal conflicts in Africa and Indonesia of recent. There was no (and I mean NO) altruism involved in our defense of Kuwait.

drumsicle wrote:

During the 1973 war Israel was set to invade Egypt and Syria...we paid them not to and still give them 3 billion a year. How is are policy not even-handed. The only thing we haven't done "right" is support the destruction of Israel. Sounds like blackmail to me.

My reply is:

Our favoring of Israel comes from the religious fact that since Judaism isn't a competitor with Christianity (unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism isn't evangelical), we feel much more comfortable with Jews than with Muslims.

drumsicle wrote:

As for the displaced Arabs, in 1948 between 600 and 800 thousand Jews were expelled from Arab lands when Israel became a state.

My reply is:

But the displaced Jews have since been the favorite sons, receiving much more aid than the Palestinians.

drumsicle wrote:

The fact that they will not except Israel's right to exist, is not our problem nor should it be.

My reply is:

In that case, then defending Israel should stop being our business as well. And soon, once there are more Arabs in Israel than Jews, this will become our problem: Will Israel become an Arab-dominated democracy or a dictatorship designed to keep the minority Jewish population at the top of the heap, as was the case once in South Africa?


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UnseenWorld

Big Ben wrote:

hmmmmm guys you sooo don't know what are you talking about. In 1948 UN has given it's proposition to divide the holy land into 2 countries 1/2 Israel and 1/2 Palestine. Well the Jews agreed to take their half but the Palestinians didn't wanted to satisfy with their half they wanted all and didn't wanted to compromise.

My reply is:

And this was not their (the Palestinians) right? Imagine the US is a small, relatively defenseless land and that the UN decides to divide the country in half and to send you somewhere on the other side of the Mississippi River from where you are. You don't think you should have the right to refuse?

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baddog

unseen

the recent attack on the USA by bin laden has nothing to do with fucking Israel or palestine where do you get your news?

bin laden is pissed that the USA stayed in Saudi Arabia after the liberation of Kuwait from Iraq has zero to do with UN, 1948, Israel or Palestine

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Sjayne

Almost everything in the Middle East has something (no matter how vauge) to do with Israel.

This is no different. If you read any papers outside of North America you would know that one the MAIN beefs that these groups have against the USA is our policy in regards to Israel.

It may not be Bin Laden's main problem with us but it is that of some of his followers. And don't fool yourself that he doesn't care about it.

richard123

The problem is that the Jews want Americans ot think this had nothing (or just maybe a little) to do with Israel. The Jews have permeated all levels of US society to the point where they can heavily influence the news reporting there.

Take someone like Dr. Meyrav Wurmser who writes for the Washington Times. Take all the Jews in the congress, and take Al Gore's running mate last time.

There is no way US citizens can expect to have non-biased stuff about Israel coming out of CNN or the White House or virtually any other media outlet.

I hope you see I am not having a go at Jews per se... I am just saying that like we think the Arabs are brain washed by their leaders, maybe we are by our leaders (or news media) too?

Lastly: All flavours of Islam are hell bent on (as they see it) regaining the land occupied by the Jews. It's extremely unlikely that Bin Laden would have missed this fact.

So, Sjayne... I agree with what you are saying

Israel is considered to be a supporter of terrorism by many (if not most) European countries. It therefore makes Bush look hypocritical by saying:
a. We will not stand for terrorism and
b. This was an attack on our freedom

Should the USA give up support for Israel? If it means you can go watch the superbowl next time and feel safe in the knowledge that some insane terrorist will *not* be flying an ultralight aircraft right over the main stand, spraying it with Anthrax. Maybe.

Sjayne

Honest answer: I really don't know.

I'm not Jewish and I am not Arab so I never really thought I had a right to take a side. So, I tried to learn both sides.

Moving to the UK has helped me a lot to see both sides. The British get it hard because they were so important in the dividing of the land. So, becaues they have such a historical interest in the story they are better at reporting both sides of the story without sounding like they are favouring either.

It is a hugely noticable difference from the reporting I used to see/read back home.

Big Ben

Where do you live in the Unseen World?

You claim that Israel is the only cause for the bomb on US. I disagree on that.

You see this problem doesn't start with the creation of Israel it's roots are far far more in the past. This struggle/war is in its original ideological/religious and has been thru the history in that way or another. You see Judaism religion is older than Christianity and Islam. In a matter of fact Christianity became from Judaism. And I'll explain why. Jesus was a Jew. He was a great prophet that brought new ideas and ideology to the new order but the old Jews rejected his ideas and prophets. When Jesus was crossed above his head was hang a tablet with the writing "The King of Jews". But there were those that do followed him and formed a new religion. Christianity. So if the former of Christian religion was a Jew it makes all the Christians in that way or another Jews.

And there also rises a third big religion that much different from Judaism and Christianity. Islam. Well all the big wars in the history were cause of a religious conflicts. And this is the same old conflict.

Well the Jews were hunted all over the history by so many I can't even count. And guess why? Cause of their religion.
All this kind Bin laden's same as Hitler believe that Jews and Christians need to be exterminated. And Judaism first because its the root of Christianity. Well they all almost succeeded. Open an atlas in a population spread by a religion and you will see that most of the modern world is a Christianity + Israel with Judaism. All the Arab countries are with Islam. All the wars and conflicts are in the borders between the modern world and the Islamic world. War in Chechnia, Serbia, Africa ... are all between 2 sides Christians and Muslims. Well as I understand it, it not only Israel's problem or Russians problem or American problem this Islamic terror already spread on all of the world and is the problem of the whole modern world. Cause it is the one that they wana blow and their fanaticism is based on.

I think you guys need to wake up and see the whole picture. It effects more than America and not only American's problem.

Sjayne

I didn't see anyone say it was the ONLY cause. It is however a contributing factor.

And of course it isn't just a US problem. Again no one said that. Why would we when some of us live in areas that have been dealing with terrorism for very long times. Plus the fact that most nations here lost people in those towers (the British still have 800 missing, for example).

So, I think the world has known for sometime that it isn't just an American issue. Its more like the American gov't thought it was the rest of the world's problem.

UnseenWorld

Big Ben wrote:

You claim that Israel is the only cause for the bomb on US. I disagree on that.

My reply is:

So do I. I never said that. I said you can trace it back to there. That is the insult that started Islamic militancy against the US and its allies.

Big Ben wrote:

You see this problem doesn't start with the creation of Israel it's roots are far far more in the past. This struggle/war is in its original ideological/religious and has been thru the history in that way or another. You see Judaism religion is older than Christianity and Islam. In a matter of fact Christianity became from Judaism. And I'll explain why. Jesus was a Jew. He was a great prophet that brought new ideas and ideology to the new order but the old Jews rejected his ideas and prophets. When Jesus was crossed above his head was hang a tablet with the writing "The King of Jews". But there were those that do followed him and formed a new religion. Christianity. So if the former of Christian religion was a Jew it makes all the Christians in that way or another Jews.

My reply is:

Thanks for the religious history lesson. As someone who has taugh comparative religion on the college level, I really needed that. I'm writing about modern Islamic political militancy, which starts with the displacement of Palestinians to create Israel.

Big Ben wrote:

And there also rises a third big religion that much different from Judaism and Christianity. Islam. Well all the big wars in the history were cause of a religious conflicts. And this is the same old conflict.

My reply is:

So, where is the big conflict between Christianity and Judaism?

Big Ben wrote:

Well the Jews were hunted all over the history by so many I can't even count. And guess why? Cause of their religion.
All this kind Bin laden's same as Hitler believe that Jews and Christians need to be exterminated. And Judaism first because its the root of Christianity. Well they all almost succeeded. Open an atlas in a population spread by a religion and you will see that most of the modern world is a Christianity + Israel with Judaism. All the Arab countries are with Islam. All the wars and conflicts are in the borders between the modern world and the Islamic world. War in Chechnia, Serbia, Africa ... are all between 2 sides Christians and Muslims. Well as I understand it, it not only Israel's problem or Russians problem or American problem this Islamic terror already spread on all of the world and is the problem of the whole modern world. Cause it is the one that they wana blow and their fanaticism is based on.

My reply is:

I think your train of thought derailed in there somewhere. How about a summary?

Big Ben wrote:

I think you guys need to wake up and see the whole picture. It effects more than America and not only American's problem.

My reply is:

Yes, but we have part of the problem and it's one something must be done about.

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drumsicle

I totally disagree. Israel could have ended this thing a long time ago, if not for the pressure of the US and Europe.

We don't defend Israel period, and never have! The only thing we have done was airlift arms to them in '73 when the Soviets were supplying the Arab countries.

drumsicle

[quote]Originally posted by richard123:

Quote:

Israel is considered to be a supporter of terrorism by many (if not most) European countries. It therefore makes Bush look hypocritical by saying:

LOL!! a supporter of terrorism? It's rather strange how the world cries out every time Israel defends herself. I supposed they should just sit back and be happy with the suicide bombings and drive-by shootings and attacks on school buses.

I say America is a great country and one of the reasons is it's support of Israel. Especially when so many others would happily sit back and watch it's destruction.

richard123

Yes, Mr. drumsicle. Unfortunately it seems many Americans do not realise how the USA is viewed from other parts of the world. I suppose you do realise, however, that Israeli soldiers also kill innocent palestinians (including kids).

Anyway - the fact remains that Israel is seen as a terrorist state by many countries. There's nothing I can do about that. But it helps to be aware.

richard123

I think maybe his point is (with the atlas anyway) that Islam is spreading just like Christianity did. All 3 religions have the same god. All 3 originated in the same place. Christianity carried on (sort of) from Judaism. Islam carries on (sort of) from Christianity. Give it 100 years (or maybe 200) and it'll be all muslim countries all over just like happened with Christianity.



How far off the truth is that??

Sjayne

Did the US actually get to see the footage a few months ago of an Israeli soldier shooting a baby (we are talking a few month old baby) dead...it was on the same footage of them shooting a 11 or 12 year old boy and then his father cradeling him as he died.

The rest of the world did...over and over and over again.

drumsicle

No I'm not aware of the Israelis TARGETING innocents. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at times though. I have on the other hand seen a lot of bullshit* stories in the Arab press which a lot of the European papers and journalists swallow up by the truckload.

The perfect example is the darling little harmless rock throwers. It is well known that there are almost always snipers behind them. But the journalists will only show you rock throwing children without further explanation.

*I realize some consider the Arab press to be reliable. I consider it propaganda.

drumsicle

Uh yes we did. However, many people believe that he was actually killed by a Palestinian sniper. It wouldn't surprise me, consider many raise their children to be glorious suicide bombers.

Since the press is so superior over there, I'm assuming that you got to see the women and children blow to bits while eating pizza in a Jeruselem restaurant. We call that terrorism here. The BBC calls the perpetrators of such acts "activists".

Sjayne

I am sorry but you don't have a clue about the European press. Yup..they are guilty. Guilty of reporting BOTH sides. Guilty of condeming BOTH sides.

You also don't know what you are talking about. You 'know' about one side. Understandable since you only get one side reported to you.

You want to know about journalist being biased? Well I happen to know of the BBC firing their reporter in that region a couple years back because he only reported on the Jewish side and never on the Palestine side. WELL DONE BBC...a journalist should not be biased. They would have done it if it was the other way around too..and have done. (side note..that reported was picked up by sky/fox news and was one of the people responsible for those 'celebrating' reports).

Tell me? What did a 3 month old baby do to deserve being shot in the head? See, we live in the outside world..we saw the whole footage.

And I am in the UK....if you know the history of the region the UK of all countries would have something to gain out of tainting the news to make it look like the Brits did the right thing.

BOTH sides commit hideous acts. You are mistaking knowing both sides of the story for taking a side. Its not. Its just called education.

drumsicle

What the fuck?!!! I read the british papers and listen to the BBC Einstein.

Sjayne

Yes, we did. We see pretty much every clash that happens there - on either side. Sometimes I get sick of it but I understand why it is important. And guess what..it was condemed.

And that baby was hit by an Israeli..we saw it on camera.

The BBC call the IRA activists because they are. Its called being unbiased..which is what a journalist should be. Did you go to journalism school? I did.

Sjayne

Which British Newspapers do you read? Which one did you read today?

drumsicle

Duh! you ever heard of the internet? I read papers from all over the world.

Sjayne

So you read them but you don't know their names. Funny..I can remember the papers (internet or not) that I read today. A mixture of American, British and Australian today.

drumsicle

I read articles today from the bothe the guardian and the telegraph. Now unless you are gonna make a point and stop trying to prove me stupid or a liar, I'm done with this useless conversation.

richard123

Hey - all I was saying was that many many countries around the world view Israel as a terrorist state. I also believe I said that there is likely to be fairly biased reporting in the USA because of its open support of Israel, which in turn is because of the Jews in the USA (including "Journalists"). That's all

Other than that, I'd just like to go to bed now (almost midnight) I heard the Taliban has asked bin Laden to leave. I hope the allied forces are satisfied with that.

Sjayne

I am not trying to prove you stupid. I am just trying to show you that there are two sides of every story. I don't recall reponding via swear words and a zillion '!' marks. Adult debate doesn't need those and I am seriously overloading on replies like that (not just yours).

Stop jumping on every conversation and turning it into one of these 'America is right and the rest of you suck' threads. It doesn't do anyone any favours.

If those are the newspapers you read then atleast you didn't read the Sun or some trash like that. Part of reading the papers is knowing what their slant on the news is normally like. Some papers are more Labour(democrat) leaning and some are more Torry (Republican) leaning.

I personally like the Gaurdian but think their online coverage is a bit weak.

I don't read the Telegraph..it is nicknamed the Torrygraph.