Probono

If you have money behind you you have a greater opportunity than those who do not. In America if you are a WASP you have a better shot than if you are are black; unless of course you have money.

This society is based on money. Yes you can make it on sweat alone but that requires intellegence nd perserverance.

You must consider the average person has a 100 IQ by definition and little to no money behind them. That average person does not have the same opportunity as the Bush twins, of Chelsea Clinton etc.

Joe Citizen

Do you even THINK about what you type?

Are you 16?

BRISK

Wouldn't that make electing representatives somewhat pointless though?

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Joe Citizen

Great post!

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

switch "weapons" with "Defense" and it would be number one LOL!

America's red are so fucken scared out of there minds right now and the fuckers are only killin themselves.

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Libertine

Opportunity consists of more than just physical freedom. If, like you say, people won't even try if their environment tells them they have no chance, society is to blame if those people don't achieve much, rather than those people themselves.

An example:
If a child grows up getting told by his parents every day that he's a worthless piece of shit and that he will never amount to anything, and you accept that such things do in fact have an influence on how people behave in society, that child has less opportunity than other children.

Physically, people in the 19th century had just as much opportunity of creating a microwave as the people of today. However, they lacked the proper (scientific) beliefs to create one. (knowledge is actually a belief system, combining an extensive set of beliefs about the world)

Likewise, if someone grows up without the proper (personal) beliefs to achieve things, he may have the physical opportunity, but his chances of achievement are still extremely slim.

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Wolfy

Dad was abusive mentally and physically, a drug dealer, in fact that is how I started out in life. I spent 9 months in jail for dealing dope and got out and started doing the same thing - I almost got busted again and made a change, I left California.

I've been supporting myself since I was 15, buying my own food and clothes.

No, my mom was not a prostitute or a drug addict.

Now, does it really matter? Every person is equal to the sum of his or her own choices. Every person has the ability to make choices in their life, you can't blame shit on your parents. Of course you can, but if you're that type of person you are probably doing so in the welfare line waiting for a handout instead of beating the streets looking for a job.

media

Could very well.. But it would also eliminate some of the overpaid politicians who like to line their pockets with our money..

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Joe Citizen

Sometimes, mostly in the case of children, people are the sum of someone else's choices.

Congratulations on getting to where you are but you are the exception rather than the rule... and your achievements are not the result of 'equal opportunity' but your intelligence and determination.

Not everyone is as lucky.

bringer

you're hopeless. this is what ive been saying the whole time, but you chose not to read what i said and instead attack me. idiot
i guess from reading this you conclude that anyone who isnt white and born into a rich family isnt intellegant enough to make it therefore equal oppertunity doesnt exist. you cant agree that its possible and then say it doesnt exist.

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Wolfy

Did you see Dumb and Dumber? When Jim Carey asks "So what are the chances of a girl like you and a guy like me..."

She says "1 ina million".
his response?
"So you're saying there's a chance. YES!"

There is plenty of encouragement out there, I got none of mine from home. All my encouragement came from looking at the world and asking myself, "What is stopping me from getting that?" Maybe I am the exception to the rule, but I don't think I am that special. Everyone has choices, and nobody but the individual is responsible for their choices but them. Period.

Joe Citizen

No you're the one that's hopeless.

The idea of 'equal oportunity' is as ludicrous as 'liberty and justice for all'.

Are you incapable of distinguishing between reality and propaganda?

The more you use the term 'equal opportunity' the more of an idiot you look.

bringer

thats the point. joe thinks oppertunity doesnt exist unless its given to you on a silver platter. anyone who makes it must be a fluke because it doesnt fall into his views on america.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Fuck it, your all hopeless.

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Ad3pt

Joe gets owned again.

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Libertine

That movie is called "Dumb and Dumber" for a reason. A really small chance is exactly that: a really small chance. Think about that concept for a while.
Every has choices, and the outcome of choices is determined by who someone is. Who someone is is largely determined by things like upbringing, culture, etc.

People may be responsible for their own choices, but society has the responsibility to see how its very structure influences the choices people make.

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Joe Citizen

I'M NOT SAYING OPPORTUNITY DOESN'T EXIST I'M SAYING EQUAL OPPORTUNITY DOESN'T EXIST! CAN YOU PLEASE START FUCKING LISTENING!

Thank you.

CET

Then if you have intention of reading it, and don't care what it says, then stop trying to debunk it without knowing anything about it. Also, since you say you give 2 shits about stats, then stop posting your own stats, even though they don't contradict anything I've already posted.

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"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

Ad3pt

Joe Citizen is the king of selfownage

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CET

You said you don't care, so why are you STILL trying to debunk a book you've never read? STFU already.

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Joe Citizen

Isn't Mommy calling you to dinner?

CET

Of course not, but Australia isn't as notorious, nor do I think their racial history is as old and ingrained into your society as it is in Amercian society. My guess is that you didn't hold aboriginies in slavery for 200 years and then give them another 100 years of legislated second class citizenship.

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"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

BRISK

I think his argument is that "equal opportunity" doesn't exist. I think he's said that opportunity exists, it's just not equal.

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Joe Citizen

Damn... maybe size 7 text did help.

BRISK

My only point was that Australia has a bad history of racism. I didn't make any comments on whether it was more or less racist than America.

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Libertine

What I was doing was showing how your statistic without more information couldn't be used as an argument, not attacking the actual book. The statistic may be true and useful, or it may be complete crap - we'll never know, because you were too lazy to actually transform it from a random number into a full-fledged argument by providing information on the research method and definitions used.

I'm not saying I don't care about stats, I'm saying I don't care about stats without any further information about "little" things like research method and such.

The stats I posted were meant to give an example of how stats implying the exact opposite can also be found quite easily.


Honestly, I'm shocked I actually had to explain all this.

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Joe Citizen

You are right here.

Our aborigines are the equivalent of your native Americans.

BRISK

"Our aborigines"?

Do you own them? Are they your property now?

RACIST!!!!


just kidding (this thread needs humor)

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Joe Citizen

I think that anyone with net assets of over $1 million is wealthy.

Libertine

Idiot. I'm not debunking the book, but your statements.

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Joe Citizen

I's got me an abo for chores that needs to be done 'round the house!

He calls me 'massa'

Probono

Australia did hunt and slaughter the aboriginal people. I do not know the current status, do aborigines have the rights and opportunities of the decendent of a British prisoner?

bringer

i agree with that

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Wolfy

Sorry, I didn't make my point clear - i was refering to attitude, not odds.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BRISK
I think his argument is that "equal opportunity" doesn't exist. I think he's said that opportunity exists, it's just not equal.

Are we really discussing.... did i just hear somebeody say... Oh, fuck me. *high pitched nasal whine: "It's not faaaaaaaair."

While some of you had some decent points and argueable stances on the issue of fairness and equality, as far as I am concerned you just reduuced yourselves (and not based on BRISK's statement alone) to a bunch of whining Sally's.

So: Sally, Suzie, and Suzzete - I hear they are giving out free manicures down at the thrift store, wanna go?

Ad3pt

Is that all you got?

Let me tell you my story selfownagemaster.

My dad did drugs when I was growing up but he wasn't abusive, just a musician. So mom had to work a couple jobs to help pay the bills. We were far from wealthy and always managed to get by. I dropped out of school in my junior year, against my parents wishes, because I was young and stupid thinking I had all the answers. Ultimately, I was kicked out of the house. How's that for support? I wanted to go to work and start making money right then. Looking back maybe I should have made different choices. Anyway, I chose a skilled trade and stuck with it working my way up the ranks and getting better pay with promotions. That went on for 15 years. To make a long story short, I got out of the rat race by my own choice. I now own a startup (going on 3rd year), a house by the beach, 3 cars (all paid for), have a beautiful wife (who made my dinner ;-) ) and life is pretty damn good.

To say that people growing up in the ghetto's don't have a chance is stupid. All Americans have an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED PERIOD. No one forces parents to be bad just as noone forces people not to try to succeed. I don't know where you're originally from but I suspect it's one of those countries where people are either born into the working class or royalty. Am I wrong?

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Libertine

I'm out of here. The stupidity here is frustrating me to the point that I'm starting to want to kill kittens and other cute little fluffy animals.

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Joe Citizen

Hey, we agree on something.

Joe Citizen

Do we have 'equal opportunity'?

No.

Aborigines have the same rights, yes... but we have long, long way to go.

bringer

yeah, shit happens

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Wolfy

Damn I should have stopped one post ago (I was at SIXTYNINE!!! )

BRISK

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wolfy
Sorry, I didn't make my point clear - i was refering to attitude, not odds.

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK I think his argument is that "equal opportunity" doesn't exist. I think he's said that opportunity exists, it's just not equal. Are we really discussing.... did i just hear somebeody say... Oh, fuck me. *high pitched nasal whine: "It's not faaaaaaaair." While some of you had some decent points and argueable stances on the issue of fairness and equality, as far as I am concerned you just reduuced yourselves (and not based on BRISK's statement alone) to a bunch of whining Sally's. So: Sally, Suzie, and Suzzete - I hear they are giving out free manicures down at the thrift store, wanna go?

I was just clarifying what I think Joe meant. I never said I agreed with him. I also never said I disagreed with him.

__________________
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Joe Citizen

Thanks for the heartwarming story.

You are a fucking moron and have clearly not comprehended one thing I've said in this thread.

Now kindly fuck off and eat a bag of shit you mental midget.

And you have the audacity to talk about self-ownage?

Wolfy

Let me guess - you voted for Kerry?











i'm kidding

My apologies if it seemed an attack on you. Your words fit my point better than something I could have said myself though, don't take it personal.

CET

Read the book. It's been years since I read it, so I don't remember that stuff, and even if I did, I'm not going to type pages of that stuff on to a web board. That's a shit load of work for me so that my opponent will likely blow it off, which has happened to me more then once. Go read the book, it goes into agnozing detail on methods and other stats.

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"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

Arousal Design

This is such a flawed idea, its no wonder you believe it.

You have to revamp it because its not directly analagous. Let's say everyone in the school has to distribute their GPA amongst the rest of the school. Would it then be fair for the person with the GPA of 2.0 to give up 1.0 and the person with the 4.0 also only having to give up 1.0 ?


In terms of "fairness" ... the person with the GPA of 2.0 will be left with half of what they had, 1.0.. and the person with the 4.0 will be left with 3/4ths or 3.0 ... one will fail the other will still pass easily.

Who should have to lift the heavier rocks... the strongest person in the bunch or the weakest?

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Ad3pt

woohoo! rhetoric and insults - the signs of not having anything meaningful to say. wow man, you're such an intelectual thinker.

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bringer

commy

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Joe Citizen

Nice sig.

I win.

Wolfy

is there any excuse for someone having something below a 2.0? Your whole point rests on "fairness", while you blow right past the fact that there IS no excuse for having something below a 2.0 or even a 3.0, really, so it is in fact unfair to ask ANYBODY to give up any of their earnings to compensate for someone elses lack thereof.

Nice try though.

Ad3pt

Yeah taht's what I thought. you don't even buy the shit you talk you fucking postwhore.

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