Libertine

About the numbers CET quoted: if what I think is going on here is correct, the numbers are utterly useless.

It looks like the book he quoted used a set standard of $10M net worth for defining wealth.
If that is indeed the case, one only has to take a quick look at the time period between the measurement of parents' net worth and that of their millionaire children. Let's put that at an average of 20 years, shall we?
The book he's talking about is from 1998, I believe, so let's say the parents' status of "wealthy" or not was based on their net worth in 1978, and that of the wealthy children on numbers from 1998.

$10M in 1998 has the same purchasing power as ~$4M in 1978. So, if you take $10M+ for the parents in 1978 as a standard of being "wealthy", you should use $25M+ as the standard for defining "wealthy" in 1998. Otherwise, equal or even diminished purchasing power combined with inflation will have created most of the "first generation wealthy".


This is just one possibility - although one that seems quite likely right now - but it clearly shows why most numbers from either side can't be taken for face value without knowing the research method and such.

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SultryMal

exactly

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SultryMal

thats, right, thank you, i wasnt being completely literal, this is just a simple story that can show the most basic form of what most democrats want, higher tax percentages for the rich

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bringer

both sides play the games and someone always gets fucked

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CET

Do you have a large population of black people? Were they enslaved for 200 years followed by another 100 years of legislated racism and groups like the KKK?

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Alt Journals, Blogs for Perverts!

Fitness and nutrition writer, and UNIX/Linux Sys Ad in training

"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

bringer

cry me a riverrrr

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CET

The line has to be drawn somewhere and that's simply where this author chose to draw the line of "wealthy". I've already been through this, and if you still don't get it then you're just being willfully ignorant.

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Alt Journals, Blogs for Perverts!

Fitness and nutrition writer, and UNIX/Linux Sys Ad in training

"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

CET

How about you stop talking out of your ass and actually read the book instead of sitting around trying to shoot down something that you know nothing about. I quote a couple of statistics from it, you decide you don't like it and therefore it must be discredited. How about you get off your ass and GO READ IT! Only then will you be able to speak about it with ANY authority.

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Alt Journals, Blogs for Perverts!

Fitness and nutrition writer, and UNIX/Linux Sys Ad in training

"Just as a man who has fallen into a heap of filth ought to seek the great pond of water covered with lotuses, which is near by: even so seek thou for the great deathless lake of Nirvana to wash off the defilement of wrong. If the lake is not sought, it is not the fault of the lake."

Libertine

I don't want to speak about your book with any authority. I don't care about the book, actually. I am not planning on reading it, simply because I currently have a list of several hundreds of books I still have to read.

What I am responding to are your statements. You use a random number from a random book as an authorative source, yet fail to give a rough outline of the research method used, and your only comments on the definitions used imply a major flaw in that method.


I can get almost any random statistical number I want on any subject whatsoever from some book written by some professor somewhere in the world. For example, this week, I read in a book by an American professor in sociology that my country is racially almost entirely homogenous.

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Wolfy

actually - it was less than 13%, like 12.8 or so.

2.2 points makes a big difference when you are paying on over 5 Mil.

Libertine

The line has to be drawn somewhere, yes. However, drawing that line at a certain amount of money without any other specifications is fairly stupid.

First of all, relative wealth is a much more important factor in determining mobility within society (and that was the context in which you quoted the statistic) than absolute wealth, for obvious reasons. So, a better line would be "the richest 10%", or something of the sort.
Secondly, determining absolute wealth by a set amount of money instead of inflation-corrected purchasing power is positively bizarre.


If you're gonna use statistics as arguments, you should be able to explain and justify them as well.


I think the problem isn't that I'm being willfully ignorant, but that you're being unintentionally ignorant.

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Dynamix

Regardless of whether a person inherits their wealth of works for it, the point still remains: Everyone has and has had the same opportunity to be wealthy for quite some time now.

Second-generation wealth still comes from a first-generation who was more ambitious than a poor second-generation's parents.

No one will ever convince me that in today's day and age they weren't given the full opportunity so suceed, regardless of race.

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Joe Citizen

This equal oportunity stuff just keeps on making me laugh.

Is this what they teach you Americans in school?

From the people who brought you 'liberty and justice for all' comes 'equal opportunity'!

Dead13

The argument is silly.

If you made your money in America you will honor your country and pay your fair share. Fair share for the rich is much higher than fair share for the poor, so either get over it and honor the country that gave you the opportunity to make your money or simply move out.

Out of the 30 strongest nations in the world, in their rankings of taxes, America is 29th out of 30. Americans pay the second lowest taxes in the world amongst the 30 strongest nations in it.

30 is Mexico and I assume things are not going so well there since they get shot up everyday trying to escape over our border.

Anyone who argues about paying their taxes is simply ignorant and obviously has no idea how the real world is operated.

United we stand divided we fall, if we all do not pay our fair share this country will fall, plain and simple.

Maybe you assholes who do not want to pay your share of taxes can move to Mexico.

Dead13

What are you 12? I'd highly suggest you research that theory a little bit more and look further than your own backyard while doing so.

BRISK

Are those the only factors that would determine that Australia has a bad history of racism?

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Head

Spreading the wealth in that fashion is a very far left idea and most liberals won't go for something like that.

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tony286

Thank you they always try to make it on simple terms and its not simple. Also most of them dont pay their fair share to begin with.

bringer

everyone has equal opportunity in this country, only different obstacles. it might be true someone coming from a rich family can get there faster and easier, but it doesnt mean a poor person cant make it there aswell. i know from reading your posts you hate this country, so if you believe this or not you will still disagree in a poor attempt to belittle us.

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Joe Citizen

Wake up and take a look around.

You are a victim of propaganda.

bringer

no, it is you who has fallen victim to propaganda. you dont even live in this country so dont tell me what can and can not be achieved.

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Ad3pt

This is so not true. The fucking mexican gov't tries to sue the US because we don't have water along their migration trails. The illegals forget to bring the basic necessities for survival. some and die from dehydration and the others from hypothermia. Most certainly not from getting shot by our border patrol.

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South O - World Class surfer destination since 2001.

Joe Citizen

I guess saying that pledge of alliegence over and over again really has warped your brain.

And, no I don't live in the USA but I've spent six months there.

I've seen all I need to see.

Wolfy

I make over 100k a year and I did not graduate high school, nor am I a genious. I make my money because I work my ass off and I want it, and I don't fall prey to the pessimist attitude that most people let rule their lives after a few (or many, who cares?) encounters with difficulty.

You're right - he is a victim of propaganda. If he's anything like me he is also living that propaganda. Why aren't you?

bringer

im glad you didnt like it here, i hope you never return. we need less idiots in this country, and you leaving was a start in the right direction.

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BRISK

I think we're all probably victims of propaganda.

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I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do,
I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

Joe Citizen

Some are just more brainwashed than others.

I classify anyone who believes in a laughable concept such as 'equal opportunity' as extremely brainwashed.

Joe Citizen

The delusionals are out running wild today.

Yes, just because you did okay that means there's equal opportunity.

Tell me, are you white? How much money did your parents make?

bringer

you keep saying that yet you dont give any examples of how its not the case. you think anyone who makes over 80k/year comes from a rich family? the ones who cant do it are the ones who are brainwashed. they dont even try because their community leaders tell them they dont have a chance because of where they live or the color of their skin.

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Libertine

The concept of "equal opportunity" is indeed ridiculous, but it can easily be replaced by a concept of "sufficient opportunity". People don't need equal opportunity in life to be responsible for their own actions.

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Ad3pt

Joe, are the the offspring of an Aborigine and a marsupial? You, freak, are a disgrace to your country. You should just shut your piehole and move along. If you had some type of business in your sig i could understand why your talking so much shit. But you don't. So, what's your excuse? Did our troops off your family in Iraq?

BTW, where did you visit the states that makes you such an authority on our way of life?

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Don't look here for the joke. It's in your pants.

South O - World Class surfer destination since 2001.

Joe Citizen

You have shitty public schools in poor areas and better ones for the richer white kids.

You have kids having to deal with drug addicted or abusive parents or guardians and having no choice in the matter.

You have a society consumed by racism

You live in a world of nepotism and old boys clubs.

As I stated before in this thread. Anyone who believes that a child born to a poor, black, crack addicted single mother has the same opportunity as a child born to a wealthy, privileged, connected family is completely and utterly brainwashed.

The concept of equal opportunity is a joke. The fact that you believe it makes you a joke.

Libertine

When you say that "they don't even try because their community leaders tell them they don't have a chance", you are actually giving a very strong argument for his position.

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Joe Citizen

I've seen New York, L.A., Las Vegas and I've been up and down the coast of Florida from Key West to St. Augustine.

So I've seen enough.

What have you seen outside your country?

Ad3pt

Joe doesn't get out much. These conditions are everywhere.

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Don't look here for the joke. It's in your pants.

South O - World Class surfer destination since 2001.

Joe Citizen

I agree with you and believe that the cornerstones of "sufficient opportunity" should be a well funded and effective public school system and a well funded and effective publichealth system.

The USA has neither.

Joe Citizen

I don't remember saying that anywhere has 'equal opportunity'.

bringer

yet people prove you wrong everyday. you think there isnt one person whos grown up in every one of your examples and made it? when people like you keep telling them they cant make it, they start to believe it and give up hope which lands them exactly where they are, nowhere. if one person made it threw your obstacle course, it would only prove that they have the oppertunity to make it. most may have a hard road to suceed, but the road isnt open to only rich white kids who two parents

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Probono

Once more with a radical perspective.

The rich cannot be rich without the sweat of the poor. That has never changer. Teresa Heinz Kerry does not manufacture ketchup, thousands of working people manufacture ketchup using their sweat and the capital of those who own stock in Heinz. That is the upper and the middle class.

Do remember the primary goal of Heniz is not ketchuip manufturing but returning a good rate of return on the capital, dividends to shareholders. To do that they will pay as little as possible to manufacture the ketchup. So if there are people in timbuktu willing to work for these and freight, tarriffs and other economic forces make it more profitable to make ketchup in Timbuktu that is where they will built a plant. The only mitigating factor is government incentive to keep the jobs at home.

Wealth is the essence of a capitalistic society and without it would would have some more egalitarian system. Unfortunately no other system seems to work.

Even the Romans recognized the need for bread and circuses. If you forget the poor and they have no way to eat they will sieze the ketchup factory and eat fat greedy cat with lots of ketchup.

It takes some recognition of reality to maintain social stability.

media

Agreed..

You also have to give large to live large.. Most people tend to forget that tazes goto schools, communities, and helping our country prosper..

You are paying taxes so that our country can continue to produce high educated people that you may be able to one day have on your staff.. Or you are helping pay for your friends college costs so that the tuition costs stay lower than they would without that tax money not coming in..

It surprises me how so many people in the upper brackets only think of their own wallet when it comes to society as a whole..

In the state of Oregon they proposed a tax that on average for everyone would have cost $150 per person per year. This tax failed and I now pay $1000 extra dollars per year on my wifes college tuition rather than $150 per year in tax...

Tax issues are touchy, I hate paying taxes, but I know that we have them for a good reason in the end..

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bringer

how so? because people put their trust in people that dont have their best interests at heart? just because jessie jackson says a poor black child who has no father figure cant make it doesnt make it true.

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Libertine

Good post

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BRISK

Taxes might exist for good reasons, but whether they're being spent on good reasons is another story.

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I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do,
I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

Joe Citizen

Some people escape their circumstances yes... but not many.

I don't deny that it is possible for some to achieve great things against all odds but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Just please stop speaking shit about 'equal opportunity' because it's a ridiculous concept.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Some say the end is near.
Some say we?ll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I?ll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.
It?s a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I?ll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we?ll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I?ve a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom?s gonna fix it all soon.
Mom?s comin? round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I?m praying for rain
And I?m praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don?t just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.
I can?t imagine why you wouldn?t
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.

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Wolfy

Yeah, I am white... that should be fairly apparent from my sig. My parents made and still make shit, I make more than both of them and one of my uncles combined.

Is it hard to succeed? You're fucking right it is.

Does that mean the opportunity is not there?

For the record I know just as many blacks as whites who have come out of poverty in the exact same way I did. Hard work and a belief.

bringer

if they didnt have an equal opportunity to make it in america escape would be impossible. how can they do something that you say cant be done? you confuse equal opportunity with equal privilege, which is something that doesnt exist anywhere.

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Wolfy

I love that song - just wanted to hear it again. :P

Joe Citizen

Tell me were you parents supportive... or were they crack addicts who beat you and told you you were worthless?

Were you encouraged to make something of your life or were you thrown out of the house at 13?

Was your mother a prostitute?

Was your dad a drug dealer or a thief?

media

I totally agree with this..

In my opinion they should have something of a tax optimization form that you fill out that way your taxation dollars can goto what you specify they goto..

For instantce, you get a 10 category selection of tax categories like schools, weapons, community funding, etc...

You would have to pick a minimum of 5 items, and specify the % you want to goto each...

That way you could customize what your money goes to.. so many people have so many beliefs it would probably spread it across the board to a good amount with correct priorities..

Just my opinion though.. Could be idiocy..

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