What will happen with the USA when it outsources everything? - GoFuckYourself.com

AkiraSS · 10-29-2004, 03:06 PM

I may be stupid but...

US citizens are the richest in the world - it's a fact, but they didn't become rich because they outsourced.

So, what happens when:

a) Joe Sixpack works as a car-parts manifacturer. He gets $10k per month sallary. He buys TVs, DVDs, Cars, Pays taxes etc.

b) 100 x Joe Sixpacks = good consumers

c) You outsource 100 joe sixpacks to China, and you give 100 chinese $100 a month.

d) you get RICH corporate CEO, rich corporation, but you leave 100 Joe Sixpacks out of job

e) The company now has parts to sell, but there aren't any Joe Sixpacks to buy those parts.

What will happen if tons of the work gets "outsourced" and many people loose their jobs, who'll make the US economy grow? If the outsourcing trend continues there will be tons of rich companies with poor population.

???

Explain this to me..

shima · 10-29-2004, 03:13 PM

Well, China will become rich then. Its ok for a center of universe to move around. Chinese will start to outsource to US then.

davidd · 10-29-2004, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AkiraSS
I may be stupid but...

US citizens are the richest in the world - it's a fact, but they didn't become rich because they outsourced.

So, what happens when:

a) Joe Sixpack works as a car-parts manifacturer. He gets $10k per month sallary. He buys TVs, DVDs, Cars, Pays taxes etc.

b) 100 x Joe Sixpacks = good consumers

c) You outsource 100 joe sixpacks to China, and you give 100 chinese $100 a month.

d) you get RICH corporate CEO, rich corporation, but you leave 100 Joe Sixpacks out of job

e) The company now has parts to sell, but there aren't any Joe Sixpacks to buy those parts.

What will happen if tons of the work gets "outsourced" and many people loose their jobs, who'll make the US economy grow? If the outsourcing trend continues there will be tons of rich companies with poor population.

???

Explain this to me..

Your entire comments drip of class warfare, but your point you made in part a) is key. Joe Six Pack making $10K a month. Joe Six Pack can be replaced by Xing making $300 a month. As big bad rich CEO I am going to choose Xing.

Blame the government for outsourcing, not the big bad companies.

The outrageous costs of maintaining employees is reason #1 for outsourcing.

-dd

mortenb · 10-29-2004, 03:17 PM

other jobs will take the place of the ones that have been outsourced.. the world generally adapts to whatever we throw at it..

here in western europe we have seen outsourcing to the eastern countries, but our economy is still growing.. we just have to be a bit creative and find new areas to work in..

+ the western world has the best educational system.. so almost all of the jobs that require more than basic knowledge will not be outsourced..

sperbonzo · 10-29-2004, 03:20 PM

What will happen with outsourcing is that

1. New jobs will come along as the economy evolves

2. New markets will be created by raising the standard of living in third world countries....creating a middle class there which does not now exist. And the US will find things to sell to them.

benc · 10-29-2004, 03:20 PM

I think it was bound to happen. People in India work dirt cheap, and are harder working.

A lot of these IT jobs are becoming the white collar equivalent of picking tomatos. People need to get the right skills and stay in demand.

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:20 PM

This shall turn out to be a good argument thread.

Outsourcing is not bad for the country, there I said it.
Many also do not really look at the ecomonics of it all it seems. I do hope people do relize that foriegn companies do a hell of a lot of what I guess we could call insourcing to America. They wish to be closer to their primary consumers so they open up centers in the US.

Cold hard fact is you can not stop outsourcing. Only thing a Government could do is impose tarrifs on imports and or subsidize bad companies who can not compete in todays world economy. Yes a tarrif may help joe sixpack keep his job, yet someone is going to pay for those tarrifs and it ussually is you and me or some other company.
Also keep in mind countries believe in tit for tat. If we tarrif them, they will tarrif us and it just gets even more ugly.

loverboy · 10-29-2004, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd

Blame the government for outsourcing, not the big bad companies.

The outrageous costs of maintaining employees is reason #1 for outsourcing.

-dd

very well said

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd

Blame the government for outsourcing, not the big bad companies.

The outrageous costs of maintaining employees is reason #1 for outsourcing.

-dd

You can not blame companies as you stated, profit is good.
Nor can you possibly blame the government. The government really has zero control over the economy even though they pretend they do.

Peaches · 10-29-2004, 03:25 PM

My Dad was a salesman for IBM back in the mid 60's. I remember the big stink then was "OMG, computers are going to replace everyone and then no one will have jobs!!". Somehow, we have recovered from that.

Same is true about outsourcing. The people who are successful now can be successful in anything.

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
You can not blame companies as you stated, profit is good.
Nor can you possibly blame the government. The government really has zero control over the economy even though they pretend they do.

I think he's saying you can blame the government for all the high costs of keeping employees.

Linguist · 10-29-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mortenb
+ the western world has the best educational system.. so almost all of the jobs that require more than basic knowledge will not be outsourced..

I strongly disagree.

Education in the eastern European centres is on par with anywhere in the western world.
Same with India etc. Of course there are dumb people too, but there are dumb people everywhere.

They have PHD's selling stuff on a marketplace to get enough money for food not because they are stupid, but because there are no jobs. It's changing with the internet, and language barrier is not as big when you are typing on a computer screen.

Quality outsourcing prices will slowly rise as Internet becomes more accessible and domestic services will lower in price.. that's what will happen

BRISK · 10-29-2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AkiraSS
[B]I may be stupid but...

US citizens are the richest in the world - it's a fact

As a whole, yes, but not necessarily on average.

Wealth in America is not equally distributed.

The top 10% own 70% of the wealth in America.

davidd · 10-29-2004, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
You can not blame companies as you stated, profit is good.
Nor can you possibly blame the government. The government really has zero control over the economy even though they pretend they do.

The government requires me to match Social Security contributions, the government requires me to contribute to Unemployment Pools, the government requires me to have all sorts of insurance, blah blah blah.

BRISK · 10-29-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AkiraSS
I may be stupid but...

US citizens are the richest in the world - it's a fact

Luxembourg has the highest GDP per capita in the world

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/.../2004rank.html

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly
I think he's saying you can blame the government for all the high costs of keeping employees.

In that case you could blame politicians, special interests groups, lobbiest, and unions. They do put to many socialist programs into play that once someone has their hand in the free money cookie jar it will never ever be removed.

shima · 10-29-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mortenb
+ the western world has the best educational system.. so almost all of the jobs that require more than basic knowledge will not be outsourced..

Oh yeah? You ever heard about paying for parking with your cellphone in them "well educated western countries"?

Of corse it takes just a basic knowledge to invent something like that. How about buying a ticket in public transportation with a cellphone? How about free Wifi all over the cities? No?

Sarabi · 10-29-2004, 03:34 PM

Just because the government allows it does not make it the government's fault when a CEO chooses to do it. It's just plain and simple greed.

These companies make plenty of money to pay their employees and still bring in a hefty profit, especially with all their tax breaks and funneling of money.

The US has an enormous number of unemployed, educated, skilled, hard working people. If you want to see just how many, post a highly skilled job offer and see just how many responses you get. It's actually overwhelming and quite sad to see.

And btw...joe6pack makes no where near 10K a month

All this outsourcing just can't be good, at least not for the majority of the people in the US

davidd · 10-29-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
As a whole, yes, but not necessarily on average.

Wealth in America is not equally distributed.

The top 10% own 70% of the wealth in America.

And this is bad? Do not get into a wealth redistribution argument, as if everyone had a $1mil - $1mil wouldn't be worth anything.

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shima
Oh yeah? You ever heard about paying for parking with your cellphone in them "well educated western countries"?
Of corse it takes just a basic knowledge to invent something like that. How about buying a ticket in public transportation with a cellphone? How about free Wifi all over the cities? No?

That's an infrastructure issue. The US will have stuff like that some day, problem is we're so damn big and have so many people it's hard to get things like that going when the money should be spent on more important things than city based Wifi.

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
The government requires me to match Social Security contributions, the government requires me to contribute to Unemployment Pools, the government requires me to have all sorts of insurance, blah blah blah.

Yes there are many socialist programs in place.
We all know that social security is just a ponzi scheme.
Medicare is as worthless as my used toliet paper.
Subsidies are just another form of welfare we all pay.
So on and so on.

Yet it still can work with outsourcing and without. We have had those programs long before outsourcing started and we have those programs in place for all the companies that insource into the US.

What American companies need to grasp or more so Americans in general is a different management strategy.

BRISK · 10-29-2004, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
And this is bad? Do not get into a wealth redistribution argument, as if everyone had a $1mil - $1mil wouldn't be worth anything.

I never said it was bad.

fr33s3x · 10-29-2004, 03:38 PM

me neither

Theo · 10-29-2004, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
As a whole, yes, but not necessarily on average.

Wealth in America is not equally distributed.

The top 10% own 70% of the wealth in America.

same in the rest of the world.

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarabi
The US has an enormous number of unemployed, educated, skilled, hard working people. If you want to see just how many, post a highly skilled job offer and see just how many responses you get. It's actually overwhelming and quite sad to see.

The definition of educated, skilled, and hard working people has really changed over the years.

I don't know many people that fit that description. The ones who do, own companies or have good jobs.

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarabi

All this outsourcing just can't be good, at least not for the majority of the people in the US

Flawed logic. We as consumers want better products at cheaper prices. Business's have two things to do, 1. is make as much profit as possible and 2. satisfy consumers needs, wants, and desires.

Innovate, adapt, change, or die. It is just how the world works.

BRISK · 10-29-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
same in the rest of the world.

No, it isn't the same statistics in the rest of the world.

davidd · 10-29-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarabi
Just because the government allows it does not make it the government's fault when a CEO chooses to do it. It's just plain and simple greed.

These companies make plenty of money to pay their employees and still bring in a hefty profit, especially with all their tax breaks and funneling of money.

The US has an enormous number of unemployed, educated, skilled, hard working people. If you want to see just how many, post a highly skilled job offer and see just how many responses you get. It's actually overwhelming and quite sad to see.

And btw...joe6pack makes no where near 10K a month

All this outsourcing just can't be good, at least not for the majority of the people in the US

Okay, so the new rule is, "You make a shit load of money, you should be giving it away". This mindset never ceases to amaze me, and is the mindset of the poor worldwide.

It is this mindset that keeps people from truly attaining anything above a meager existence.

Lastly, I love your blanket statement of "Tax Breaks and Funneling of Money". Do you have any examples of this or are you spouting the same bullshit I hear everyday from the far Left? And just how much taxes should someone be paying, in your world view? 10%? 20%? 50%? Or how about giving it all away.... They make so much why not just give it to every freeloading douche bag on the planet.

-dd

shima · 10-29-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly
That's an infrastructure issue. The US will have stuff like that some day, problem is we're so damn big and have so many people it's hard to get things like that going when the money should be spent on more important things than city based Wifi.

I'm not really talking about infrastructure. I'm talking about the education. In 12th grade US kids study math with calculator. Eastern European kids study the same material in 5th grade using their brains. I've been in US high school for a year. In 2 schools even. I'm talking about education.
Its not that I call y'all stupid. Its just that you can just say "Hey, education sucks in Eastern European countries". Its not true.

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shima
I'm not really talking about infrastructure. I'm talking about the education. In 12th grade US kids study math with calculator. Eastern European kids study the same material in 5th grade using their brains. I've been in US high school for a year. In 2 schools even. I'm talking about education.
Its not that I call y'all stupid. Its just that you can just say "Hey, education sucks in Eastern European countries". Its not true.

I think most people will agree that our public school system has failed. Let's stick more money into it so it can continue failing! Yay!

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
Okay, so the new rule is, "You make a shit load of money, you should be giving it away". This mindset never ceases to amaze me, and is the mindset of the poor worldwide.

It is this mindset that keeps people from truly attaining anything above a meager existence.

Lastly, I love your blanket statement of "Tax Breaks and Funneling of Money". Do you have any examples of this or are you spouting the same bullshit I hear everyday from the far Left? And just how much taxes should someone be paying, in your world view? 10%? 20%? 50%? Or how about giving it all away.... They make so much why not just give it to every freeloading douche bag on the planet.

-dd

I think the idea is "if you live better than me you should be giving more of your money away!"

Haha.

davidd · 10-29-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly
I think most people will agree that our public school system has failed. Let's stick more money into it so it can continue failing! Yay!

So true. Once you put the power in the hands of Washington it will never be released. The NEA is a waste of billions of dollars. Put it back in the hands of the states.

-dd

shima · 10-29-2004, 03:48 PM

You can't really hold the Outsourcing from happening.
Money always move towards the best option out there.
We are in business of making profits.

No, but of corse, you can patriotically order a product in US, and pay 5 times more, cutting your profits out. Its up to you.

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly
I think most people will agree that our public school system has failed. Let's stick more money into it so it can continue failing! Yay!

*Cough*
Teachers unions, socialist programs.
*cough*
No more money needed.

freeadultcontent · 10-29-2004, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
So true. Once you put the power in the hands of Washington it will never be released. The NEA is a waste of billions of dollars. Put it back in the hands of the states.

-dd

Seriously, fuck the states too.
Take the money out of governments hands all together.

Sly · 10-29-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
*Cough*
Teachers unions, socialist programs.
*cough*
No more money needed.

These national unions and programs suck up way too much money in the bureaucracies. Need to go back to the State and even City level. What's good for Providence, Rhode Island isn't necessarily good for Chico, California. Problem is people just don't realize this.

pornguy · 10-29-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shima
Oh yeah? You ever heard about paying for parking with your cellphone in them "well educated western countries"?
Of corse it takes just a basic knowledge to invent something like that. How about buying a ticket in public transportation with a cellphone? How about free Wifi all over the cities? No?

Can I guess that you are in Europe??

How many stores do you shop in that have your thumb print as you credit card.

There are gadgets all over the world. It does not make any place better than another.

Oh, by the way, I am in Mexico, and we have the cc thing that I mentioned.

Sarabi · 10-29-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
Okay, so the new rule is, "You make a shit load of money, you should be giving it away".

Never said you should give it away. Big corporations tend to forget that it's the people that work for them can make or break them. For example, you own a company that offers consumers personal support...you want your consumer to hang up the phone happy or pissed off? I know I've been pissed off enough with a company to never use their product or service again.

Quote:

Lastly, I love your blanket statement of "Tax Breaks and Funneling of Money". Do you have any examples of this or are you spouting the same bullshit I hear everyday from the far Left?

Yeah, sure, I have hard proof...coz all companies post that information publicly

All I can say is I've seen it first hand, you can take it or leave it.

Quote:

And just how much taxes should someone be paying, in your world view? 10%? 20%? 50%? Or how about giving it all away.... They make so much why not just give it to every freeloading douche bag on the planet.

If you outsource all the jobs, there'll be no one left to pay taxes...so guess this would be a moot point in your world view.

davidd · 10-29-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarabi
Never said you should give it away. Big corporations tend to forget that it's the people that work for them can make or break them. For example, you own a company that offers consumers personal support...you want your consumer to hang up the phone happy or pissed off? I know I've been pissed off enough with a company to never use their product or service again.

Yeah, sure, I have hard proof...coz all companies post that information publicly All I can say is I've seen it first hand, you can take it or leave it.

If you outsource all the jobs, there'll be no one left to pay taxes...so guess this would be a moot point in your world view.

The employees should remember if it wasn't for the big bad corporation they would be sucking dick on the street corner. It should be a give and take relationship. Unfortunately, the employees eventually think that they started the company and it is now their right to get all of the profits, but shoulder no burden. This is what happened with most of the labor unions. Labor Unions are a huge factor in blue collar jobs LEAVING the USA. Why should a line worker at GM get paid $25 to start?

Hard Proof - I am not seeing any examples. Show me where US corporations are dodging taxes, and at the same time outsourcing jobs overseas, which you see as a bad thing.

Taxes - You did not answer the question. What do you think is a fair amount of tax on profit? What should be done with this tax? Do you favor no taxes if the big bad companies just gave 50% of the profit in a hand out to the employees?

In closing, valuable employess will always be compensated. I have seen it my whole life. Employees that are commodities and can be replaced by Xing Huk in Cambodia will always be disregarded. This is life, and the person allowing themselves to stay in the situation of being someone else's tool needs to reevaluate what they are doing wrong.

This whole discussion is a classic Marxist discussion.

-dd

JiMSiN · 10-29-2004, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
The government requires me to match Social Security contributions, the government requires me to contribute to Unemployment Pools, the government requires me to have all sorts of insurance, blah blah blah.

Oh... boo-hoo-hoo. Go dry yer eyes.

Don't ya just wish that slavery was still legal, huh?

Sarabi · 10-29-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidd
It should be a give and take relationship.

That's what I'm saying. What you're saying is that Mr.Factory worker should be happy to work his ass off for $6/hr, which can't even pay the rent on a 1 bedroom apartment.

Quote:

Hard Proof - I am not seeing any examples.

Actually read what I said regarding that in my above post, or was it the comprehension part you lacked?

Quote:

Taxes - You did not answer the question. What do you think is a fair amount of tax on profit? What should be done with this tax? Do you favor no taxes if the big bad companies just gave 50% of the profit in a hand out to the employees?

Does my opinion on this really matter so much to you? Since this discussion is about outsourcing, if we outsource all the jobs, who will be left to pay taxes? Answer that Question

Quote:

In closing, valuable employess will always be compensated. I have seen it my whole life.

Obviously not, CJBucks thread is a prime example.

Quote:

This whole discussion is a classic Marxist discussion.

Translates to, "If I don't agree with someone else's viewpoints, I must imply they are a pinko commie anti-american fuckdog that must be shot on site by any true Bush loving NRA member"

crockett · 10-29-2004, 05:25 PM

I will then outsource my ass to Costa Rica

Doctor Dre · 10-29-2004, 05:27 PM

They will just sell outsourced goods to other countries and make a cut ...

10-29-2004, 03:17 PM	#4
mortenb Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Denmark ICQ: 7880009 Posts: 2,203	other jobs will take the place of the ones that have been outsourced.. the world generally adapts to whatever we throw at it.. here in western europe we have seen outsourcing to the eastern countries, but our economy is still growing.. we just have to be a bit creative and find new areas to work in.. + the western world has the best educational system.. so almost all of the jobs that require more than basic knowledge will not be outsourced.. Last edited by mortenb; 10-29-2004 at 03:18 PM..

10-29-2004, 03:20 PM	#5
sperbonzo I'd rather be on my boat. Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 9,748	What will happen with outsourcing is that 1. New jobs will come along as the economy evolves 2. New markets will be created by raising the standard of living in third world countries....creating a middle class there which does not now exist. And the US will find things to sell to them. __________________ Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/ ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

10-29-2004, 03:20 PM	#6
benc Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 788	I think it was bound to happen. People in India work dirt cheap, and are harder working. A lot of these IT jobs are becoming the white collar equivalent of picking tomatos. People need to get the right skills and stay in demand. __________________ Numerous Adult and Non Adult Domains For Sale Such as SlutVideos.com, FitWomen.com Listed on Sedo or can do direct sale

10-29-2004, 03:20 PM	#7
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	This shall turn out to be a good argument thread. Outsourcing is not bad for the country, there I said it. Many also do not really look at the ecomonics of it all it seems. I do hope people do relize that foriegn companies do a hell of a lot of what I guess we could call insourcing to America. They wish to be closer to their primary consumers so they open up centers in the US. Cold hard fact is you can not stop outsourcing. Only thing a Government could do is impose tarrifs on imports and or subsidize bad companies who can not compete in todays world economy. Yes a tarrif may help joe sixpack keep his job, yet someone is going to pay for those tarrifs and it ussually is you and me or some other company. Also keep in mind countries believe in tit for tat. If we tarrif them, they will tarrif us and it just gets even more ugly. __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites

10-29-2004, 03:38 PM	#23
fr33s3x Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,064	me neither __________________

10-29-2004, 03:06 PM	#1
AkiraSS Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ICQ: 17630227 Posts: 2,988	What will happen with the USA when it outsources everything? I may be stupid but... US citizens are the richest in the world - it's a fact, but they didn't become rich because they outsourced. So, what happens when: a) Joe Sixpack works as a car-parts manifacturer. He gets $10k per month sallary. He buys TVs, DVDs, Cars, Pays taxes etc. b) 100 x Joe Sixpacks = good consumers c) You outsource 100 joe sixpacks to China, and you give 100 chinese $100 a month. d) you get RICH corporate CEO, rich corporation, but you leave 100 Joe Sixpacks out of job e) The company now has parts to sell, but there aren't any Joe Sixpacks to buy those parts. What will happen if tons of the work gets "outsourced" and many people loose their jobs, who'll make the US economy grow? If the outsourcing trend continues there will be tons of rich companies with poor population. ??? Explain this to me..

10-29-2004, 03:13 PM	#2
shima Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Office, as usual Posts: 1,753	Well, China will become rich then. Its ok for a center of universe to move around. Chinese will start to outsource to US then.

10-29-2004, 03:25 PM	#10
Peaches Old broad Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Away Posts: 13,933	My Dad was a salesman for IBM back in the mid 60's. I remember the big stink then was "OMG, computers are going to replace everyone and then no one will have jobs!!". Somehow, we have recovered from that. Same is true about outsourcing. The people who are successful now can be successful in anything.

10-29-2004, 03:34 PM	#18
Sarabi Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ft Laud, Fl Posts: 14	Just because the government allows it does not make it the government's fault when a CEO chooses to do it. It's just plain and simple greed. These companies make plenty of money to pay their employees and still bring in a hefty profit, especially with all their tax breaks and funneling of money. The US has an enormous number of unemployed, educated, skilled, hard working people. If you want to see just how many, post a highly skilled job offer and see just how many responses you get. It's actually overwhelming and quite sad to see. And btw...joe6pack makes no where near 10K a month All this outsourcing just can't be good, at least not for the majority of the people in the US

10-29-2004, 03:48 PM	#33
shima Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Office, as usual Posts: 1,753	You can't really hold the Outsourcing from happening. Money always move towards the best option out there. We are in business of making profits. No, but of corse, you can patriotically order a product in US, and pay 5 times more, cutting your profits out. Its up to you.

10-29-2004, 05:25 PM	#42
crockett in a van by the river Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 76,806	I will then outsource my ass to Costa Rica __________________ In November, you can vote for America's next president or its first dictator.