Benefits of Using Ibill Direct US - GoFuckYourself.com

Shap · 10-05-2004, 03:32 PM

Yesterday there was a discussion about the cons to having your own Merchant Account. How about a discussion regarding the benefits?

Paycom pointed out that effectively running a PPS program on a Merchant account would be near impossible. Impossible to comply with MC regulations. While this may be true, truth is the majority all PPS programs are already using Paycom. Why? Because paycom gives them the tools to make the most out of their surfer (ie pre-selected cross sells). Which would lead to the questions 'if paycom is cautioning about how tough it is to stay compliant with MC and they have all these large high risk pps programs running pre-selected cross sells just how safe are they? And how close are they to the MC and Visa CB limits? How close are they to receiving very large fines?' However those questions are for another thread and another time. I'm not here to knock Paycom. Heck, I've got them up on my join page

What I would like to discuss is the OTHER type of sites that were left out of yesterday's discussion.
- The type of site that treats their surfers the way they'd like to be treated.
-The type of site that is very upfront with their billing and has no surprises for the surfer.
- The type of site that under promises and over delivers.

We are that type of site (and there are many others). Twistys' chargeback rate is 0.19%. We have a support team that works around the clock to make sure our member's are happy and satisfied with their purchase. We do our best to make our member's happy any way we can. One example is when a long term member writes in with a problem or suggestion we automatically give them a free month. We believe in making our member's feel at home. If we treat them the right way they'll keep coming back to us.

As the owner of such a site we've had Merchant account on our minds for a long time. I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Just wanted to post to say we are looking forward to Ibill Direct US.

:

MickeyG · 10-05-2004, 03:37 PM

Controlling our own scrub rate would be nice. I wonder if thats going to be possible with ibill.

quiet · 10-05-2004, 03:39 PM

great thread shap, let's hear it

Shap · 10-05-2004, 04:16 PM

Hey Quiet. What's up? Word has it tomorrow should be a good day for you

I guess the benefits are not controversial enough and those not running a PPS program aren't worth discussing, i find that odd because the long term success of any processor depends largely on clients like you and I, decent volume and low chargeback rates. If you had a processor that limited their customer database to only the highest quality sites they'd make good money and run without a problem. Imagine a processor processing only for Scoreland, Quiet's Sites, Twistys, Atk, 1byday, Alscans and others of that level. They'd make a good profit and have no worries about visa.

In the end I guess we should know better, this industry isn't about long term it's all about milking it now and leaving a mess for someone else to clean up.

Jer · 10-05-2004, 04:21 PM

I like this thread.

AlmightyZeus · 10-05-2004, 04:24 PM

Finally a thread worth reading.

PhillipB · 10-05-2004, 04:34 PM

I have the same question too Shap, as we're currently looking at adding a merchant account setup in to our cascade. I have done a little research, would be more than happy to discuss with you if interested.

William-Xfactor · 10-05-2004, 04:43 PM

We have cross sales, but unchecked it?s up to the customer if he wants to take up the offer.
I also look after our customers and never hesitate to refund or credit a membership with extra time if the customer contacts us with a problem.
The cancel links are in full view on the member?s main page we don?t rely on the customer forgetting to cancel in hope of picking up a re-bill. We want them to re-bill because they enjoy the sites.
Charge backs? I think we had one or two this year.

But honestly I prefer to use CCBILL then worry about our own merchant account.

NETbilling · 10-05-2004, 05:06 PM

Shap,

I can tell you for a fact that many programs use Netbilling and other processors as well. Only a small percentage of overall web merchants actually run affiliate programs. We and other gateways processs for thousands of merchant all having their own merchant account.

Netbilling provides ALL of the services that many of the "third party processors" provide including call center services. We also give the merchant the ability to control their pwn level of fraud scrubbing using the risk management tools that we provide, at a fraction of the cost. Using Netbilling, you also get paid DAILY directly to your bank account.

I believe that once you have seen the power and flexibility of our system, you will agree.

Feel free to contact us for a walkthrough.

Thank you, Mitch Farber

NETbilling · 10-05-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by APN Philip
I have the same question too Shap, as we're currently looking at adding a merchant account setup in to our cascade. I have done a little research, would be more than happy to discuss with you if interested.

Philip,

We will be happy to have you as a customer. Have you contacted us?

Mitch

quiet · 10-05-2004, 05:08 PM

Hi Mitch.

i'm curious, how difficult is it to obtain a merchant account through you? what are the steps involved?

thanks much...

Dawgy · 10-05-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
In the end I guess we should know better, this industry isn't about long term it's all about milking it now and leaving a mess for someone else to clean up.

so true

Shap · 10-05-2004, 05:10 PM

Understood Mitch. I'm sure you saw yesterday's post, it was basically a warning that getting your own merchant account was looking for trouble. What is your take on the situation. Surely the benefits to having your own merchant account are there.

Do you agree with the assessment that was made yesterday that merchant accounts are a bad idea? If not why? What are the benefits. Here's your green light to go wild

Drake · 10-05-2004, 05:10 PM

Shap, your CB stats are great. I think that's about the industry average for quality adult sites. 0.20% or below.

Shap · 10-05-2004, 05:11 PM

Also, one other question that applies to quiet and myself. Do you deal solely with American clients?

baddog · 10-05-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MickeyG
Controlling our own scrub rate would be nice.

NETbilling · 10-05-2004, 05:21 PM

Gentlemen,

I know how Clay warned of getting your own merchant account. We have dozens of merchants that use us as the primary and a 3rd party processor as a secondary processor. There is nothing wrong with doing that. We can help merchants who have an EU and US presence.

Mitch

Nautilus · 10-05-2004, 05:42 PM

Benefits of getting your own merchant account are obvious, but getting it on terms iBill offers is questionable at the very least.

I wonder how many people actually signed those forms. There is an exclusivity clause that forces you into sending at least 75% of your sales through SP, otherwise they'll bill your Reserve and Operating accounts for damages (and you authorize them to bill anything they want by signing this contract).

So, basically, you get your own merchant account and bear all risks accosiated with it; yet you still pay outrageous 3rd party biller's fees, and you can't have Mitch or other good gateway service to handle your account because of the exclusivity thing you agreed upon, and because it's generally still unknown whether you'll actually have access to your customers' database.

Hmm....

NETbilling · 10-05-2004, 05:52 PM

Hi,

More information in my intial post here:

http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...adid=360962&s=

Mitch

Nautilus · 10-05-2004, 05:55 PM

Mitch, is the pass "Mitch told" still valid for waiving off set up fees?

NETbilling · 10-06-2004, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nautilus
Mitch, is the pass "Mitch told" still valid for waiving off set up fees?

Absolutely. However, if it is a high risk account, you will have to pay the Visa/Mastercard registration fees.

Mitch

Epoch · 10-06-2004, 11:21 AM

Shap,

Some companies can manage their own merchant account
and this is a great solution for them. Maybe you fit
into this category. However the reality is that the
majority of companies cannot manage their own account
and risk falling into a chargeback program thereby risking
their business. This is why only a small percentage of
companies have their own merchant account. Back in
the 90's a lot of companies had their own accounts and most
all of them were lost due to issues primarily related to
chargebacks. This is why merchant accounts are so hard
to find these days, the banks have been there done that.

You also have to remember that you will need to find a
bank that will underwrite your account. A lot of banks
will not underwrite low volume accounts as the risk is
to great for the bank. If you are processing 10K per
month and get a 25K fine from MC for cbks who is going
to pay this fine? if you don't then the bank must pay it.
Do you think the banks are going to stick their necks out for
a large number of low volume adult merchants?

Clay
EPOCH

Chris Mallick · 10-06-2004, 11:39 AM

Sorry guys, I can't bold my text here, no time, so read my comments in the body,.

Shap: I hope you are getting all of the benefits of being the iBill Marketing Director. Do they have a 401K?

It is beyond belief that you are doing this all of your own accord; rather you must be getting a monetary benefit or some form of compensation. As iBill won?t come on these boards, they must have hired you to market for them. Great Job! Maybe I?m wrong, but it sure seems strange that you are this attached to this issue, unless you have a Fatal Attraction-thing going on with those guys.

Now, point-by-point, allow me to retort?.

Yesterday there was a discussion about the cons to having your own Merchant Account. How about a discussion regarding the benefits?

Paycom pointed out that effectively running a PPS program on a Merchant account would be near impossible. Impossible to comply with MC regulations. While this may be true, truth is the majority all PPS programs are already using Paycom. Why? Because paycom gives them the tools to make the most out of their surfer (ie pre-selected cross sells). Right, we give tools, use expertise and many other things. Some of them are cross sells, but I say again: There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked. You are banging on this issue every chance you get. Why do you care? Your assumptions on risk, disclosure, honesty is all incorrect. Which would lead to the questions 'if paycom is cautioning about how tough it is to stay compliant with MC and they have all these large high risk pps programs running pre-selected cross sells just how safe are they? The answer is very safe. We have merchant accounts; we are rock solid in every way. We are focused on processing transactions for the Adult Internet Industry. We are not selling stock, merging, and divesting, changing business models. Focus + Experience = Success. We have it, we won?t lose it and you should applaud success, not hate it and try to slander our business reputation. But, I guess I need to remember that you have a hidden (although fairly transparent) agenda. Again, you must be making money by doing this marketing for iBill. And how close are they to the MC and Visa CB limits? Not close at all. However, remember that being too far away means we are declining too many cards. Also, try and remember this: Chargeback thresholds are numbers created to protect the card association brands. We have fewer chargebacks and returns in the Adult ?High Risk? Card Not Present marketplace than most brick and mortar stores. The only reason the thresholds are so low is because in the past, people running PPS Program and a billing company (i.e.; Having their own Merchant Account) could not do both effectively, or not in the ever-changing environment we are in. So the card associations came down on this industry and imposed stiff penalties to protect their brand. That is their right and we follow their rules, as long as they are fair. How close are they to receiving very large fines?' Again, not close. We are fully compliant and not under any fine program. Can iBill say the same? Maybe they can, ask them and then post the statement and attribute it to an individual with authority to make statements on their behalf. However those questions are for another thread and another time. Then why are you discussing them here? Oh teah, marketing?I'm not here to knock Paycom. BULLSHIT! That is exactly what you are here to do. Heck, I've got them up on my join page For now.

What I would like to discuss is the OTHER type of sites that were left out of yesterday's discussion.
- The type of site that treats their surfers the way they'd like to be treated.
-The type of site that is very upfront with their billing and has no surprises for the surfer.
- The type of site that under promises and over delivers.

So you believe that all of the PPS Programs that cross sell are not included in the above definition? You are an idiot!

We are that type of site (and there are many others). Twistys' chargeback rate is 0.19%. We have a support team that works around the clock to make sure our member's are happy and satisfied with their purchase. We do our best to make our member's happy any way we can. One example is when a long term member writes in with a problem or suggestion we automatically give them a free month. We believe in making our member's feel at home. If we treat them the right way they'll keep coming back to us.

As the owner of such a site we've had Merchant account on our minds for a long time. I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Just wanted to post to say we are looking forward to Ibill Direct US. :

I hope you get the account ? and fast. But in fairness to the readers here, you should let them know what your volume of sales are so that they can decide if you run a program of significant size and length to make you an ?authority?.

To Paycom?s clients you already know the truth, and to those of you considering using our systems and services, ask around about our company and our systems. Ask anyone including a competitor (remember iBill is no longer a competitor as they are no longer going to process as an HRIPSP). Our reputation and record stands tall and strong.

Our client call starts in a few, so I am off the boards. But in the meantime, Shap, Go Fuck Yourself.

C

Shap · 10-06-2004, 11:44 AM

Clay I agree at 10k a month a merchant account would be useless. Perhaps you'd be better able to answer my question. Our volume is $200k+ monthly and our chargeback rate <0.20%. Is it worth it for the bank to stick their neck out for us at that level?

Shap · 10-06-2004, 11:46 AM

Hey Chris. Real classy. This is the second time you tell me to go fuck myself. Your class never fails to amaze me.

bigdog · 10-06-2004, 11:46 AM

can't wait to see shaps response to this

Epoch · 10-06-2004, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
Clay I agree at 10k a month a merchant account would be useless. Perhaps you'd be better able to answer my question. Our volume is $200k+ monthly and our chargeback rate <0.20%. Is it worth it for the bank to stick their neck out for us at that level?

If you are doing 200K per month then you should be of significant size for consideration. Now you need to go through underwriting and provide them with all of the financial information they will need (tax returns, balance sheet etc..) so they evaluate the risk

Clay
EPOCH

NETbilling · 10-06-2004, 12:05 PM

Shap,

Clay is correct that many webmasters burned through merchant accounts in the 90s. Why? Because they did not have the risk management tools and customer service to handle it. They were also double billing, not cancelling etc...

Times are different now. As you know, many of these webmasters have grown up and payment gateways such as ours have emerged to help merchants obtain and maintain their own merchant accounts by providing risk management and customer service, just as your company does. While I do not necessarily think a 10k per month webmaster may be the best for an adult high risk merchant account, it certainly is possible to obtain one. We are getting high risk (adult) merchants approved every day. On the mianstream and adult products side, it is very quick (often same day apprvoal) to get a merchant account.

Mitch

Shap · 10-06-2004, 12:08 PM

>>Chris Wrote: Shap: I hope you are getting all of the benefits of being the iBill Marketing Director. Do they have a 401K?
It is beyond belief that you are doing this all of your own accord; rather you must be getting a monetary benefit or some form of compensation. As iBill won?t come on these boards, they must have hired you to market for them. Great Job! Maybe I?m wrong, but it sure seems strange that you are this attached to this issue, unless you have a Fatal Attraction-thing going on with those guys.

>>My reply: It's very simple Chris. We've got alot of rebills and alot of money tied in with our ibill account. It is in my best interest to do everything in my power to make sure they survive and come out strong. Them surviving is very important to us. I've calculated it to be worth at least $1,000,000 to our company. For $1,000,000 would you stand up and defend a company you've done business with for the past 5 years? I'm sure alot of your clients hope you would. As a businessman I'm sure you can understand that.

>>Chris Wrote:There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked.

>>My Reply: Is that saying that because you have pre-checked you are not below card association guidelines? I hope that was a typo by you.

With regards to my view on cross sells. Obviously you guys have your point of view. I have mine. I strongly believe pre-checked cross sells are bad for the business and bad for our industry in the long run. I'm in this for the long haul. If you want to offer someone a product after they've purchased a membership. Sure no problem. But it doesn't have to be FORCED. It can be offered and if the surfer wants it they'll check it.

>>Chris wrote: I've got them up on my join page For now.

>>My Reply: Does this mean I should remove paycom from our join page?

I made this post to concentrate on the benefits. Yes I did bring up issues that obviously bothered you. You've got to understand this industry is not made up of one type of webmaster. Not everybody in this business is interested in whoring out the surfer for every possible dime they can today. Some of us are thinking about tomorrow, next year, 5 years from now. With that said alot of webmasters have concerns about pre-checked cross sells. A horny surfer joins a paysite and is eager to get in. Enters in his information and doesn't pay attention to the two pre-selected options. Both are 1 day free trials that renew at $39.95. A day later he is billed $80. I don't see how that is treating our surfers fairly and i don't see how that won't have a long term negative effect on all of us.

>>Chris Wrote: So you believe that all of the PPS Programs that cross sell are not included in the above definition? You are an idiot!

>>My reply: Nope not at all. I never said that. Obviously with the fall of other PPS programs there has been a growth and a change in business model that has led to new higher quality PPS programs. Bang Bros comes to mind.

>>Chris Wrote: I hope you get the account ? and fast. But in fairness to the readers here, you should let them know what your volume of sales are so that they can decide if you run a program of significant size and length to make you an ?authority?.

>>My Reply: I already did above. $200k+ a month.

>>Chris Wrote: Our client call starts in a few, so I am off the boards. But in the meantime, Shap, Go Fuck Yourself.

>>My reply: As i said earlier. Classy.

MickeyG · 10-06-2004, 12:10 PM

Epoch/Chris your business practices as of late leave alot to be desired. I suggest you go crawl back in the whole you climbed out of before you start losing clients of your own.

Tipsy · 10-06-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MickeyG
Epoch/Chris your business practices as of late leave alot to be desired. I suggest you go crawl back in the whole you climbed out of before you start losing clients of your own.

Funnily enough I thought their business practices reflect brilliantly the reason they are still in business and still processing at the moment. But then you need a clue about how to run a business to understand that

Shap · 10-06-2004, 12:21 PM

One last comment on us defending ibill situation.

Ibill is not defending themselves. For whatever reason they are keeping all matters private. I sit here and watch ibill get bashed left and right. Only a few are standing up and defending them. As a businessman, that has much to gain from them succeeding, I feel I would have to be a moron to not stand up and do what I can to help them.

I'm no moron. I know what the situation is. I know bad business decisions were made. I know that has put them in their current position. That doesn't change the fact that them succeeding and making it through this is still very important and valuable to us. Right now we want them to pull thru this. Once that is done then we will sit down and find out wtf happened.

At least I'm putting up a fight and doing what I can to help. It's plain and simple. I want my rebills and my money. And Chris wants their clients. So here we are going head to head in an unneeded battle.

scoreman · 10-06-2004, 12:22 PM

Hey Mitch,

Paycom comes on the boards with lots of doom and gloom about merchant accounts, constantly stressing that they are a bad idea because of the risk of chargebacks. This makes me want to ask, in the last 2 years can you give me a percentage of the accounts Netbilling has handled that were TMF'd or received a $25,000 and higher fine by the card associations? Paycom sure makes it seem like its a significant percentage.

If reps from DHDMedia are on this board, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on my last question as well. Any other gateways please feel free to answer as well if you can.

MickeyG · 10-06-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy
Funnily enough I thought their business practices reflect brilliantly the reason they are still in business and still processing at the moment. But then you need a clue about how to run a business to understand that

more then a clue you also need ethics, which aparently they are lacking.

It's funny I don't recall the CEO of ibill bashing Paycom when they lost their merchant account and didn't pay any one. Nevertheless telling people who disagree to go fuck themselves. Real nice way for a ceo to represent their company.

I also wonder why you keep sticking your nose into this stuff, I've yet to see you post one constructive comment on the situation.

scoreman · 10-06-2004, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
One last comment on us defending ibill situation.

Ibill is not defending themselves. For whatever reason they are keeping all matters private. I sit here and watch ibill get bashed left and right. Only a few are standing up and defending them. As a businessman, that has much to gain from them succeeding, I feel I would have to be a moron to not stand up and do what I can to help them.

I'm no moron. I know what the situation is. I know bad business decisions were made. I know that has put them in their current position. That doesn't change the fact that them succeeding and making it through this is still very important and valuable to us. Right now we want them to pull thru this. Once that is done then we will sit down and find out wtf happened.

At least I'm putting up a fight and doing what I can to help. It's plain and simple. I want my rebills and my money. And Chris wants their clients. So here we are going head to head in an unneeded battle.

Paycom first came to the boards and was doing their best to bury iBill. It's not like Shap, myself, Tony404, scardog and others were the ones doing a marketing blitz on all the boards it was Paycom who started that. Mallick you sit there and accuse Shap of being a hired shill and then tell him to go fuck himself when in fact the only reason why he is here is because of your actions.

NETbilling · 10-06-2004, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scoreman
Hey Mitch,

Paycom comes on the boards with lots of doom and gloom about merchant accounts, constantly stressing that they are a bad idea because of the risk of chargebacks. This makes me want to ask, in the last 2 years can you give me a percentage of the accounts Netbilling has handled that were TMF'd or received a $25,000 and higher fine by the card associations? Paycom sure makes it seem like its a significant percentage.

If reps from DHDMedia are on this board, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on my last question as well. Any other gateways please feel free to answer as well if you can.

Hi,

Less than 1% of our merchants have ever been terminated and it is typically scammers or merchants that do not get new signups while just relying on recurrings.

Mitch

scoreman · 10-06-2004, 12:48 PM

Thanks Mitch.

sybianguru · 10-06-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MickeyG

It's funny I don't recall the CEO of ibill bashing Paycom when they lost their merchant account and didn't pay any one. Nevertheless telling people who disagree to go fuck themselves. Real nice way for a ceo to represent their company.
.

I second that. Since the issues with iBill first started, the fine, upstanding folks at Paycom have been grave dancing.
People in glass houses should not throw stones!

bigdog · 10-06-2004, 01:13 PM

just wondering how many joins a day 200k a month is? Funny thing shap proably does 80% of his own joins

Basic_man · 10-06-2004, 01:19 PM

to twistys cash

Chris Mallick · 10-06-2004, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scoreman
Paycom first came to the boards and was doing their best to bury iBill. It's not like Shap, myself, Tony404, scardog and others were the ones doing a marketing blitz on all the boards it was Paycom who started that. Mallick you sit there and accuse Shap of being a hired shill and then tell him to go fuck himself when in fact the only reason why he is here is because of your actions.

It is pointless to continue any dialog with you guys. I "get it" and I understand your motives.

Shap, your math may need a little work, unless of course you are doing a large volume of Dialer sales. If you want to remove our links go ahead. We reserve our rights under the agreement, as always.

Back to work for me...

And regardless of what these folks might say, I sincerely hope everyone gets paid, saves their recurring and continue to grow sales and profits.

See ya....

C

Shap · 10-06-2004, 01:36 PM

Chris Wrote: If you want to remove our links go ahead. We reserve our rights under the agreement, as always.

I never stated anywhere that I'd be removing the join page. You wrote I have you up for now. So my question is what did you mean by that? Are you booting us as a client?

sybianguru · 10-06-2004, 01:38 PM

Hey Chris-

What I find really perplexing is why someone as intelligent as you needs to resort to scare tactics & negative selling. If your solution is "all that", then why don't you feel comfortable discussing the benefits of Paycom, without putting down iBill?
The truth is- most companies have had their share of difficulties in this business. The companies that have been able to endure, usually emerged stronger because of it. Heck, you made it through merchant account issues & so will iBill.
In the interim, know that your posts have made you seem less than desireable to do business with.

Shap · 10-06-2004, 01:44 PM

With regards to my math being faulty. If their is one thing that I'm at fault for it is always standing up for people that don't stand up for themselves. This whole discussion revolves around standing up for ibill and standing up for the surfer (with regards to the cross sell discussion). If there is one thing I'm good at it's math

With that said we do zero in dialer sales.

Shap · 10-06-2004, 01:46 PM

Btw I know you are a busy guy and most likely didn't have to time to read my reply. That's cool. I just wanted to give you the chance to correct a typo you made.

>>Chris Wrote:There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked.

I'm assuming you meant WELL below. Am i right?

quiet · 10-06-2004, 02:09 PM

holy shit epoch is getting hot under the collar. wow.

Shap · 10-06-2004, 02:24 PM

Hey Quiet. I just heard your wire and the affiates payout went out today.

Theo · 10-06-2004, 02:45 PM

im wondering if coca-cola is wishing the best for pepsi and AMEX for MC

shap, drop me a message when you get a chance #142032164

thanks

Axeman · 10-06-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by netbilling
Hi,

Less than 1% of our merchants have ever been terminated and it is typically scammers or merchants that do not get new signups while just relying on recurrings.

Mitch

Thanks for the response Mitch. This number is lower then I thought it would be. I figured it to be in the 3-4% range due to scammers and the likes of.

Good information to have.

Axeman · 10-06-2004, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
With regards to my math being faulty. If their is one thing that I'm at fault for it is always standing up for people that don't stand up for themselves. This whole discussion revolves around standing up for ibill and standing up for the surfer (with regards to the cross sell discussion). If there is one thing I'm good at it's math

With that said we do zero in dialer sales.

I will happily back this claim up. Shap knows his numbers forward and backwards. Its the one thing I can safely say he is anal about, and to me that is a good thing.

10-05-2004, 04:16 PM	#4
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Hey Quiet. What's up? Word has it tomorrow should be a good day for you I guess the benefits are not controversial enough and those not running a PPS program aren't worth discussing, i find that odd because the long term success of any processor depends largely on clients like you and I, decent volume and low chargeback rates. If you had a processor that limited their customer database to only the highest quality sites they'd make good money and run without a problem. Imagine a processor processing only for Scoreland, Quiet's Sites, Twistys, Atk, 1byday, Alscans and others of that level. They'd make a good profit and have no worries about visa. In the end I guess we should know better, this industry isn't about long term it's all about milking it now and leaving a mess for someone else to clean up. Last edited by Shap; 10-05-2004 at 04:18 PM..

10-05-2004, 05:06 PM	#9
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Shap, I can tell you for a fact that many programs use Netbilling and other processors as well. Only a small percentage of overall web merchants actually run affiliate programs. We and other gateways processs for thousands of merchant all having their own merchant account. Netbilling provides ALL of the services that many of the "third party processors" provide including call center services. We also give the merchant the ability to control their pwn level of fraud scrubbing using the risk management tools that we provide, at a fraction of the cost. Using Netbilling, you also get paid DAILY directly to your bank account. I believe that once you have seen the power and flexibility of our system, you will agree. Feel free to contact us for a walkthrough. Thank you, Mitch Farber __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

10-05-2004, 05:21 PM	#17
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Gentlemen, I know how Clay warned of getting your own merchant account. We have dozens of merchants that use us as the primary and a 3rd party processor as a secondary processor. There is nothing wrong with doing that. We can help merchants who have an EU and US presence. Mitch __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

10-05-2004, 05:52 PM	#19
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Hi, More information in my intial post here: http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...adid=360962&s= Mitch __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

10-06-2004, 11:39 AM	#23
Chris Mallick Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Marina del Rey, CA, USA Posts: 679	Sorry guys, I can't bold my text here, no time, so read my comments in the body,. Shap: I hope you are getting all of the benefits of being the iBill Marketing Director. Do they have a 401K? It is beyond belief that you are doing this all of your own accord; rather you must be getting a monetary benefit or some form of compensation. As iBill won?t come on these boards, they must have hired you to market for them. Great Job! Maybe I?m wrong, but it sure seems strange that you are this attached to this issue, unless you have a Fatal Attraction-thing going on with those guys. Now, point-by-point, allow me to retort?. Yesterday there was a discussion about the cons to having your own Merchant Account. How about a discussion regarding the benefits? Paycom pointed out that effectively running a PPS program on a Merchant account would be near impossible. Impossible to comply with MC regulations. While this may be true, truth is the majority all PPS programs are already using Paycom. Why? Because paycom gives them the tools to make the most out of their surfer (ie pre-selected cross sells). Right, we give tools, use expertise and many other things. Some of them are cross sells, but I say again: There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked. You are banging on this issue every chance you get. Why do you care? Your assumptions on risk, disclosure, honesty is all incorrect. Which would lead to the questions 'if paycom is cautioning about how tough it is to stay compliant with MC and they have all these large high risk pps programs running pre-selected cross sells just how safe are they? The answer is very safe. We have merchant accounts; we are rock solid in every way. We are focused on processing transactions for the Adult Internet Industry. We are not selling stock, merging, and divesting, changing business models. Focus + Experience = Success. We have it, we won?t lose it and you should applaud success, not hate it and try to slander our business reputation. But, I guess I need to remember that you have a hidden (although fairly transparent) agenda. Again, you must be making money by doing this marketing for iBill. And how close are they to the MC and Visa CB limits? Not close at all. However, remember that being too far away means we are declining too many cards. Also, try and remember this: Chargeback thresholds are numbers created to protect the card association brands. We have fewer chargebacks and returns in the Adult ?High Risk? Card Not Present marketplace than most brick and mortar stores. The only reason the thresholds are so low is because in the past, people running PPS Program and a billing company (i.e.; Having their own Merchant Account) could not do both effectively, or not in the ever-changing environment we are in. So the card associations came down on this industry and imposed stiff penalties to protect their brand. That is their right and we follow their rules, as long as they are fair. How close are they to receiving very large fines?' Again, not close. We are fully compliant and not under any fine program. Can iBill say the same? Maybe they can, ask them and then post the statement and attribute it to an individual with authority to make statements on their behalf. However those questions are for another thread and another time. Then why are you discussing them here? Oh teah, marketing?I'm not here to knock Paycom. BULLSHIT! That is exactly what you are here to do. Heck, I've got them up on my join page For now. What I would like to discuss is the OTHER type of sites that were left out of yesterday's discussion. - The type of site that treats their surfers the way they'd like to be treated. -The type of site that is very upfront with their billing and has no surprises for the surfer. - The type of site that under promises and over delivers. So you believe that all of the PPS Programs that cross sell are not included in the above definition? You are an idiot! We are that type of site (and there are many others). Twistys' chargeback rate is 0.19%. We have a support team that works around the clock to make sure our member's are happy and satisfied with their purchase. We do our best to make our member's happy any way we can. One example is when a long term member writes in with a problem or suggestion we automatically give them a free month. We believe in making our member's feel at home. If we treat them the right way they'll keep coming back to us. As the owner of such a site we've had Merchant account on our minds for a long time. I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Just wanted to post to say we are looking forward to Ibill Direct US. : I hope you get the account ? and fast. But in fairness to the readers here, you should let them know what your volume of sales are so that they can decide if you run a program of significant size and length to make you an ?authority?. To Paycom?s clients you already know the truth, and to those of you considering using our systems and services, ask around about our company and our systems. Ask anyone including a competitor (remember iBill is no longer a competitor as they are no longer going to process as an HRIPSP). Our reputation and record stands tall and strong. Our client call starts in a few, so I am off the boards. But in the meantime, Shap, Go Fuck Yourself. C __________________ Chris Mallick [email protected] Last edited by Chris Mallick; 10-06-2004 at 11:41 AM..

10-05-2004, 03:32 PM	#1
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Benefits of Using Ibill Direct US Yesterday there was a discussion about the cons to having your own Merchant Account. How about a discussion regarding the benefits? Paycom pointed out that effectively running a PPS program on a Merchant account would be near impossible. Impossible to comply with MC regulations. While this may be true, truth is the majority all PPS programs are already using Paycom. Why? Because paycom gives them the tools to make the most out of their surfer (ie pre-selected cross sells). Which would lead to the questions 'if paycom is cautioning about how tough it is to stay compliant with MC and they have all these large high risk pps programs running pre-selected cross sells just how safe are they? And how close are they to the MC and Visa CB limits? How close are they to receiving very large fines?' However those questions are for another thread and another time. I'm not here to knock Paycom. Heck, I've got them up on my join page What I would like to discuss is the OTHER type of sites that were left out of yesterday's discussion. - The type of site that treats their surfers the way they'd like to be treated. -The type of site that is very upfront with their billing and has no surprises for the surfer. - The type of site that under promises and over delivers. We are that type of site (and there are many others). Twistys' chargeback rate is 0.19%. We have a support team that works around the clock to make sure our member's are happy and satisfied with their purchase. We do our best to make our member's happy any way we can. One example is when a long term member writes in with a problem or suggestion we automatically give them a free month. We believe in making our member's feel at home. If we treat them the right way they'll keep coming back to us. As the owner of such a site we've had Merchant account on our minds for a long time. I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Just wanted to post to say we are looking forward to Ibill Direct US. : Last edited by Shap; 10-05-2004 at 03:35 PM..

10-05-2004, 03:37 PM	#2
MickeyG Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 4,134	Controlling our own scrub rate would be nice. I wonder if thats going to be possible with ibill.

10-05-2004, 03:39 PM	#3
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	great thread shap, let's hear it

10-05-2004, 04:21 PM	#5
Jer God is Brazilian Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Brazil Posts: 10,601	I like this thread.

10-05-2004, 04:24 PM	#6
AlmightyZeus Registered User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mount Olympus Posts: 59	Finally a thread worth reading.

10-05-2004, 04:34 PM	#7
PhillipB Just a Simple Carpenter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Your mom's house... Posts: 1,338	I have the same question too Shap, as we're currently looking at adding a merchant account setup in to our cascade. I have done a little research, would be more than happy to discuss with you if interested.

10-05-2004, 04:43 PM	#8
William-Xfactor Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 299	We have cross sales, but unchecked it?s up to the customer if he wants to take up the offer. I also look after our customers and never hesitate to refund or credit a membership with extra time if the customer contacts us with a problem. The cancel links are in full view on the member?s main page we don?t rely on the customer forgetting to cancel in hope of picking up a re-bill. We want them to re-bill because they enjoy the sites. Charge backs? I think we had one or two this year. But honestly I prefer to use CCBILL then worry about our own merchant account.

10-05-2004, 05:08 PM	#11
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	Hi Mitch. i'm curious, how difficult is it to obtain a merchant account through you? what are the steps involved? thanks much...

10-05-2004, 05:10 PM	#13
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Understood Mitch. I'm sure you saw yesterday's post, it was basically a warning that getting your own merchant account was looking for trouble. What is your take on the situation. Surely the benefits to having your own merchant account are there. Do you agree with the assessment that was made yesterday that merchant accounts are a bad idea? If not why? What are the benefits. Here's your green light to go wild

10-05-2004, 05:10 PM	#14
Drake Hello world! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12,508	Shap, your CB stats are great. I think that's about the industry average for quality adult sites. 0.20% or below.

10-05-2004, 05:11 PM	#15
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Also, one other question that applies to quiet and myself. Do you deal solely with American clients?

10-05-2004, 05:42 PM	#18
Nautilus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,631	Benefits of getting your own merchant account are obvious, but getting it on terms iBill offers is questionable at the very least. I wonder how many people actually signed those forms. There is an exclusivity clause that forces you into sending at least 75% of your sales through SP, otherwise they'll bill your Reserve and Operating accounts for damages (and you authorize them to bill anything they want by signing this contract). So, basically, you get your own merchant account and bear all risks accosiated with it; yet you still pay outrageous 3rd party biller's fees, and you can't have Mitch or other good gateway service to handle your account because of the exclusivity thing you agreed upon, and because it's generally still unknown whether you'll actually have access to your customers' database. Hmm....

10-05-2004, 05:55 PM	#20
Nautilus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,631	Mitch, is the pass "Mitch told" still valid for waiving off set up fees?

10-06-2004, 11:21 AM	#22
Epoch Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Marina del Rey, CA Posts: 193	Shap, Some companies can manage their own merchant account and this is a great solution for them. Maybe you fit into this category. However the reality is that the majority of companies cannot manage their own account and risk falling into a chargeback program thereby risking their business. This is why only a small percentage of companies have their own merchant account. Back in the 90's a lot of companies had their own accounts and most all of them were lost due to issues primarily related to chargebacks. This is why merchant accounts are so hard to find these days, the banks have been there done that. You also have to remember that you will need to find a bank that will underwrite your account. A lot of banks will not underwrite low volume accounts as the risk is to great for the bank. If you are processing 10K per month and get a 25K fine from MC for cbks who is going to pay this fine? if you don't then the bank must pay it. Do you think the banks are going to stick their necks out for a large number of low volume adult merchants? Clay EPOCH

10-06-2004, 11:44 AM	#24
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Clay I agree at 10k a month a merchant account would be useless. Perhaps you'd be better able to answer my question. Our volume is $200k+ monthly and our chargeback rate <0.20%. Is it worth it for the bank to stick their neck out for us at that level?

10-06-2004, 11:46 AM	#25
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Hey Chris. Real classy. This is the second time you tell me to go fuck myself. Your class never fails to amaze me.

10-06-2004, 11:46 AM	#26
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	can't wait to see shaps response to this

10-06-2004, 12:05 PM	#28
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Shap, Clay is correct that many webmasters burned through merchant accounts in the 90s. Why? Because they did not have the risk management tools and customer service to handle it. They were also double billing, not cancelling etc... Times are different now. As you know, many of these webmasters have grown up and payment gateways such as ours have emerged to help merchants obtain and maintain their own merchant accounts by providing risk management and customer service, just as your company does. While I do not necessarily think a 10k per month webmaster may be the best for an adult high risk merchant account, it certainly is possible to obtain one. We are getting high risk (adult) merchants approved every day. On the mianstream and adult products side, it is very quick (often same day apprvoal) to get a merchant account. Mitch __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998! Last edited by NETbilling; 10-06-2004 at 12:10 PM..

10-06-2004, 12:08 PM	#29
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	>>Chris Wrote: Shap: I hope you are getting all of the benefits of being the iBill Marketing Director. Do they have a 401K? It is beyond belief that you are doing this all of your own accord; rather you must be getting a monetary benefit or some form of compensation. As iBill won?t come on these boards, they must have hired you to market for them. Great Job! Maybe I?m wrong, but it sure seems strange that you are this attached to this issue, unless you have a Fatal Attraction-thing going on with those guys. >>My reply: It's very simple Chris. We've got alot of rebills and alot of money tied in with our ibill account. It is in my best interest to do everything in my power to make sure they survive and come out strong. Them surviving is very important to us. I've calculated it to be worth at least $1,000,000 to our company. For $1,000,000 would you stand up and defend a company you've done business with for the past 5 years? I'm sure alot of your clients hope you would. As a businessman I'm sure you can understand that. >>Chris Wrote:There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked. >>My Reply: Is that saying that because you have pre-checked you are not below card association guidelines? I hope that was a typo by you. With regards to my view on cross sells. Obviously you guys have your point of view. I have mine. I strongly believe pre-checked cross sells are bad for the business and bad for our industry in the long run. I'm in this for the long haul. If you want to offer someone a product after they've purchased a membership. Sure no problem. But it doesn't have to be FORCED. It can be offered and if the surfer wants it they'll check it. >>Chris wrote: I've got them up on my join page For now. >>My Reply: Does this mean I should remove paycom from our join page? I made this post to concentrate on the benefits. Yes I did bring up issues that obviously bothered you. You've got to understand this industry is not made up of one type of webmaster. Not everybody in this business is interested in whoring out the surfer for every possible dime they can today. Some of us are thinking about tomorrow, next year, 5 years from now. With that said alot of webmasters have concerns about pre-checked cross sells. A horny surfer joins a paysite and is eager to get in. Enters in his information and doesn't pay attention to the two pre-selected options. Both are 1 day free trials that renew at $39.95. A day later he is billed $80. I don't see how that is treating our surfers fairly and i don't see how that won't have a long term negative effect on all of us. >>Chris Wrote: So you believe that all of the PPS Programs that cross sell are not included in the above definition? You are an idiot! >>My reply: Nope not at all. I never said that. Obviously with the fall of other PPS programs there has been a growth and a change in business model that has led to new higher quality PPS programs. Bang Bros comes to mind. >>Chris Wrote: I hope you get the account ? and fast. But in fairness to the readers here, you should let them know what your volume of sales are so that they can decide if you run a program of significant size and length to make you an ?authority?. >>My Reply: I already did above. $200k+ a month. >>Chris Wrote: Our client call starts in a few, so I am off the boards. But in the meantime, Shap, Go Fuck Yourself. >>My reply: As i said earlier. Classy.

10-06-2004, 12:10 PM	#30
MickeyG Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 4,134	Epoch/Chris your business practices as of late leave alot to be desired. I suggest you go crawl back in the whole you climbed out of before you start losing clients of your own.

10-06-2004, 12:21 PM	#32
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	One last comment on us defending ibill situation. Ibill is not defending themselves. For whatever reason they are keeping all matters private. I sit here and watch ibill get bashed left and right. Only a few are standing up and defending them. As a businessman, that has much to gain from them succeeding, I feel I would have to be a moron to not stand up and do what I can to help them. I'm no moron. I know what the situation is. I know bad business decisions were made. I know that has put them in their current position. That doesn't change the fact that them succeeding and making it through this is still very important and valuable to us. Right now we want them to pull thru this. Once that is done then we will sit down and find out wtf happened. At least I'm putting up a fight and doing what I can to help. It's plain and simple. I want my rebills and my money. And Chris wants their clients. So here we are going head to head in an unneeded battle.

10-06-2004, 12:22 PM	#33
scoreman Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,491	Hey Mitch, Paycom comes on the boards with lots of doom and gloom about merchant accounts, constantly stressing that they are a bad idea because of the risk of chargebacks. This makes me want to ask, in the last 2 years can you give me a percentage of the accounts Netbilling has handled that were TMF'd or received a $25,000 and higher fine by the card associations? Paycom sure makes it seem like its a significant percentage. If reps from DHDMedia are on this board, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on my last question as well. Any other gateways please feel free to answer as well if you can. __________________

10-06-2004, 12:48 PM	#37
scoreman Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,491	Thanks Mitch. __________________

10-06-2004, 01:13 PM	#39
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	just wondering how many joins a day 200k a month is? Funny thing shap proably does 80% of his own joins Last edited by bigdog; 10-06-2004 at 01:14 PM..

10-06-2004, 01:19 PM	#40
Basic_man Programming King Pin Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Montreal Posts: 27,360	to twistys cash __________________ UUGallery Builder - automated photo/video gallery plugin for Wordpress! Stop looking! Checkout Naked Hosting, online since 1999 !

10-06-2004, 01:36 PM	#42
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Chris Wrote: If you want to remove our links go ahead. We reserve our rights under the agreement, as always. I never stated anywhere that I'd be removing the join page. You wrote I have you up for now. So my question is what did you mean by that? Are you booting us as a client?

10-06-2004, 01:38 PM	#43
sybianguru Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 53	Hey Chris- What I find really perplexing is why someone as intelligent as you needs to resort to scare tactics & negative selling. If your solution is "all that", then why don't you feel comfortable discussing the benefits of Paycom, without putting down iBill? The truth is- most companies have had their share of difficulties in this business. The companies that have been able to endure, usually emerged stronger because of it. Heck, you made it through merchant account issues & so will iBill. In the interim, know that your posts have made you seem less than desireable to do business with. __________________ as funky as I wanna be

10-06-2004, 01:44 PM	#44
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	With regards to my math being faulty. If their is one thing that I'm at fault for it is always standing up for people that don't stand up for themselves. This whole discussion revolves around standing up for ibill and standing up for the surfer (with regards to the cross sell discussion). If there is one thing I'm good at it's math With that said we do zero in dialer sales.

10-06-2004, 01:46 PM	#45
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Btw I know you are a busy guy and most likely didn't have to time to read my reply. That's cool. I just wanted to give you the chance to correct a typo you made. >>Chris Wrote:There is not one single thing wrong with a cross sell and our ratios would be below card association guidelines if we did not have pre-checked. I'm assuming you meant WELL below. Am i right?

10-06-2004, 02:09 PM	#46
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	holy shit epoch is getting hot under the collar. wow.