Then Saddam was a good leader by using said tactics? :eek7

We've had over a year to take the oil, yet we haven't.

Everyone believed Saddam had WMDs. See my post with the bulleted list.

If nothing else, we had a cease fire with Iraq, which Saddam was breaking on a nearly daily basis by shooting at us. How do I know this? I was there, twice. I don't like being shot at during a supposed cease fire.

1. Irrelevant
2. Untrue

yea and where are these WMD you talk so much about

2003: WE DON?T BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US. After no WMDs were found, you changed your mind about why you said we needed to invade, coming up with a brand new after-the-fact reason -- we started this war so we could have regime change, liberate Iraq and give the Iraqis democracy!

2003: ?MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!? Yes, everyone saw you say it -- in costume, no less!

2004: OOPS. MISSION NOT ACCOMPLISHED! Now you call the Iraq invasion a "catastrophic success." That's what you called it this month. Over a thousand U.S. soldiers have died, Iraq is in a state of total chaos where no one is safe, and you have no clue how to get us out of there.

i thought moore was a POS propagandist, dont quote someone you think is lying to try and prove your point

He was shooting at me, so yes, he was shooting at us with his toys. He was wheeling out SAM sites into no fly zones and shooting at UN patrolling aircraft.

Everyone believed he had them. Refer to my bullet list. You'll find a long list of democrats that believed Saddam had WMDs and that he should be taken out. The problem is not that he was taken out, but that a democrat didn't do it.

No you did not. And if you're a democrat, you might not want to bring that up.

Bill Clinton might have been the first president to commit a crime while in office. Although no one goes to jail over it anymore, Adultery is still considered a crime (at least in the US).

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdui1.html


irrevelent and untrue, yea ok

You speak for everyone now? I never believed it for a second.

You should go back over there since it's a much better place, spend the winter, I'm sure it'll be warm there, what with all the napalm.

You obviously didn't read the first line of my post, "Just for S&G". It was also to display publically how full of it Moore is. Now cut the spin.

It's untrue that he's the first president with a criminal record. Cut the spin.

We haven't taken the oil yet because we have to build the infrastructure to do it, which isn't easy when the pipeline is continually bombed by 'insurgence'. These pipelines run for miles. The military has been unable to protect human lives (see beheading videos) working there, much less the pipelines. It will come to fruition sooner of later. I believe the US is in this for the long haul and will eventually control the places they want to control within Iraq.

If you didn't like being shot at why didn't the military leave HIS country? Let him do what he wishes. Yeah, he's ruthless...let his people decide to put a bullet in him. Why the focus on Iraq instead of the other regimes that are just as problematic (insert North Korea).

Check out my bulleted list. Yes, every world leader believed Saddam has WMDs. I don't speak for them, they speak for themselves, I am simply repeating what they said.

I'm simply stating the facts.

But no, I don't agree with your conclusion.

cut the spin, save that for the orielly factor

It's like arguing with kids. It's the US who wanted those sanctions.

Ah, forget it.

CET, just for your info, I'm not coming at this from a Liberal standpoint. Just the way I see things. I don't pigeon hole myself as a Republican or Liberal. If a Liberal had gone to war under the same circumstances and got us into this mess I'd be just as critical. It's the American way. We're in a mess so we should try to think of why and how to get out of it.

So you will be able to qoute Liberals saying Saddam was a threat too. Each party has it's share of bullshitters for the sake of getting votes. It's one of the reasons I can't put my complete faith in either party.

This smells of conspiracy theory.

Because he agreed to the no fly zones as part of the cease fire. The northern no fly zone was to stop his genocide of the Kurds. The southern no fly zone was to keep him away from the Kuwaiti border. He agreed to it so that we would stop kicking his ass. He renigged.

Do you have proof that every single world leader believed it or are you just making stuff up hoping to be right?

Then stop spinning my comments. When you stop trying to take me out of context, I'll stop telling you to cut the spin.

I find it interesting that if I use the word spin, that has to involve Bill O'Reilly somehow. http://www.freakmanor.com/smilies/jerkit.gif

Can you elaborate? A conspiracy to do what or for what?

I respect that, and I am in a similar position. However, I find that most people who are against the war support people who were for the war until Bush wanted to do it. That smells of partisanship. That doesn't mean that everyone who is against the war is partisan, but it does mean that many of them are.

For the 4th time, please refer to the bulleted list I posted earlier.

So? Who died as a result of those cease fire violations?

True

My squadron lost a plane, but fortunately no one died. However, that isn't the point. If you ever get a DUI try telling the cop just what you told me, "Who died as a result of my drinking and driving?"

:1orglaugh

You're the one posting information from pro leftist sources.

I try to get my information from places that have no personal agenda, be it the Left OR the Right.

I voted for Clinton, I voted for Bush, and it's looking like I'll be voting for Kerry this time around - Bush's administation made some honest mistakes, but they were mistakes nonetheless. Someone has to be held accountable for them. :) That's why they get paid the big bucks.

He violated a ceasefire and noone died as a result. Oh yeah that's huge. Let's invade all the countries that do the same to :)

North Korea regularly violates the DMZ agreement.

Tell the cop that no one died as a result of your drinking and driving and see if he doesn't arrest your ass anyway. He broke a cease fire, almost daily, for 11 years. That's bullshit! I was putting my ass on the line because this jerk wanted to see what he could get away with and no one was willing to put his ass in place. It's just like having a child, they try to see what they can get away with. If you don't enforce your threats, they know they can walk all over you.

When you put your life on the line, your opinions will have more weight. Until then, you're an armchair quarterback making up excuses for a guy we should have taken out long ago.

If that's what you think, then let's invade the other countries who violate those agreements.

First off, what you're saying is anti-democratic and un-American. And yes I've put my life on the line quite a few times.

You can email me if you wanna take this discussion further because soon enough the insults will start coming from both sides just like any other Iraq thread.

And gass a few thousand Kurds with rumsfeld's blessing as well

Right on :thumbsup :1orglaugh

I'll take a moment here to give props to theking for starting up a surefire winner of a thread.

Nice one :thumbsup


Pretty decent disussion too.

:1orglaugh

... seriously, one individual can't be that fucking dumb just by himself. did you get a hand from your hometown when posting this shit ??

theKing:

What an absolute perverson of reality you got King..

I really can't be bother answering this - it's just too weird. Did you say you live in the US? That's part of this world. The shit you say is something that is not of this world.

FIRST - Who was the prime promoter of "sanctions"??

The US. This the the standard US tool for everything - stuff countries on sanction lists. The US was actually the main advocate of sanctions - and still is, not only at the UN over Iraq, but every other damned place. Check your "State Department".

Various moves at the UN to remove these sanctions, for exactly the reasons you stated, were constantly blocked by the US (as is the custom!)

Iraq has absolutely nothing to thank the US for in the area of sanctions. It was the US who instigated these sanctions at the UN.

BTW.. It was also the US who instigated these "no fly zones". They had no legal status under international law. Someone just decided we are going to have "no fly zones". Why does it matter if Iraq "violated" something that had no standing in the first place?

SECOND - All this abundance of food, hospitals, medical equipment is ... just ridiculous.

Even your own government (tho not the Admin) had to admit there is still a massive problem and only a minor fraction of the so-called US Aid has been spent there and it now being diverted to bombing the shit of of the place.

As for water - that is the most common complaint in Iraq - along with lack of power. Both these items comprise the biggest area of complaints.

SUMMARY - If you even remotely thinking that the Iraq people have some "gratitude" to the US for this fuckup - you are seriously mentally ill.

The US has actually done amazingly little in Iraq - not even reached a point of restoring the damage of the bombs you dropped there.

WTF are you talking about??? Duh?

It is little surprise the Iraqis want to kill US people in Iraq and why they "hate" them. Or are you too dumbe to understand?

That "line" you presented is completly in line with the propaganda of the US rogue state admin. More lying.. pity you actually seem to believe it.

The US will be outta Iraq shortly. It helps avoid the costs of restoration and is in keeping with the other "exit strategies" in previous adventures. What's different this time?



PS:

BTW.. When is the US actually going to agree to the Land Mine Treaty? Every country has subscribed to this and is actively "doing something" while the US still moans and complains.

What possible reason is there for the US not to remove it's old scrap metal from countries where it is killing innocent people daily?

The answer? Greed and selfishness. The US has laid more of this shit around the world than anyone and it would cost money to remove/diffuse these land mines. I'm all right Jack - fuck the kids that get killed by your mines, - they don't matter.

This is the country with "high moral values" - they clearly are not the "high moral values" of the rest of the world. They stink.

Funny you should mention that. Did you see Bush on O'reilly last night? He was asked how people are supposed to vote with bombs blowing up around them and Bush said "Thats how people are supposed to vote" :1orglaugh

Actually some very good points here. Just goes to show that even I'm so much a part of what I see and read in US media that I forget about the simple things like "No Fly Zones". Who except the US makes up these arbitrary rules when they go into other people's countries? Another example of "we're in your country, we set new rules down, if you break our rules in your country we will punish you and your country". It's things like this that anger people in a country. Try to empathize by thinking if it happened here at home. Some powerful foreign nation(s) come here and start laying down new rules. Would we be delighted at that idea? No, we'd do everything we could do blast their rears back to wherever they came from.

The land mines issue is a disaster. People are still getting blown up in Vietname losing limbs and dying from mines WE put their 40 years ago. We have the technology to help remove them but we don't. Why? Money. When costs exceed the benefits we could care less (how does it benefit us financially that all vietnamese children are safe knowing they may lose a leg tomorrow in a land mine?). Nevermind that we slaughtered so Vietnamese in a bs war because we couldn't do it head-on with Russia because it would risk a nuclear war.

Israel has violated over 30 U.N. resolutions, maybe it's time the U.S. invaded them.

Point out anything that I posted that is not truth...or is it that you cannot handle the thruth?

Electricity was not "fine". The United States did not give the finger to the rest of the world...it along with approximately 40 other members of the UN carried out UN Resolution 1441 which stated "severe consequences". The US in past history...on multiple occasions has carried a far greater debt...relative to GNP...than it is currently carrying. While I do not approve of carrying the amount of debt that exists...it in know way threatens US financial stability...as long as the GNP grows more than the national debt...all is well...and GNP growth is healthy.

It is better than pre invasion.

There...as well as multiple sources. Where do you get your info from?

Well...profits are better than losses...and we right now the US is in the red to the tune of $200,000,000,000.00 or so. It would be nice to turn this investment into a profit.

At this point in time they are killing a much larger number of their own people than they are Americans.

I take everything that is said by the President...and any political appointee...and any elected official...and any media source...and any author...and any individual with a grain of salt.

Educate me and point out an actually "lie" that the President has told...with proof that it is a "lie". Educate me and provide the proof that the President is a "coke head".

Some of what is said in this article is not correct.

Because you proclaim the war as being pointless...does not make it so...now does it. BTW...what are your VIP credentials again?

Was there a point to make in this post?