Exactly! The politicians GETS the VOTE but he buys it by raising barriers that causes the RETARDS who voted for him to lose their jobs. Isn't politics a BITCH or what?:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

1. outsourcing companies steal your ideas
2. they are overpriced normally as they are run by usa companies who markup a silly amount of money
3. english standard is poor, so mistakes happen alot.

thats the main 3.

an example is I used to use Dell all the time, they then moved there support to india. now you call they dont have a fucking clue what your talking about and cant understand you very well, it makes there support shit, which is the most important part of a company. now longer use dell for this reason.

Price is not an issue when you want a great image.

Maybe in 5 years the standard will improve but for now i think people prefer to pay extra for quality.

Correct.

Except for one thing... The big draw that outsourcing companies rely on is the hook that "We are cheaper -- same quality or better work"

That moniker better be true. Fact is, often it isn't.



I am anti-outsourcing when it comes to local companies farming out work to foreigners and deleting jobs of local people, in that I don't like it much. But at the same time, the capitalist in me says that those people who are out of work are then free to pursue other avenues of opportunity. It is entirely up to them as to how much or how little money they earn.

To me capitalism means that you are free to become successful, or stay broke. It is up to each of us and that includes people who own outsourcing companies. The same principles hold true for me as well regarding competition with outsourcers or anyone...... that is, if I am losing out on business to outsourcing cmpanies, then MY OWN skills must be sharpened and improved, and my prices adjusted to fit the market, so that I can again be competitive and ensure it being worthwhile for others to hire me.

Thankfully I am diverse in all things, which means that only a small part of what I do is in direct competition with outsourcers and other designers.

You're always training POSSIBLE competitors regardless of where you source your services/products. In fact, Id be more worried about 'training' the competition down the street than from across the globe cuz the guys down the street have easier access to my customers.

I don't like outsourcing. The reason is, you've got guys sitting in india in an office making 800 dollars a month, who can produce some amazing work... What they're making is nothing, compared to what they should be making with the talent they have.

My :2 cents:

In my case, it has been.

I've had outsourced employees for the past 2 years and have had great quality work.

You don't like outsourcing because you don't think the employees get paid enough?

you do realize the cost of living is much much less? they can have a house full of servants on that kind of salary.

The best thing I can say here, to sum up my point, is that it is a free market. You either sink or swim. If you run an outsourcing company and you are asking "Why do people HATE outsourcing?".... I took it to mean that people who regularly hire designers or contract out programming work are starting to not hire them.

If that is the case, and I think that it is, then it is because of some of the reasons people have listed above. I also think that often you guys may find that if a company has hired "an outsourcing company" in the past and were not satisfied with the work, they might tend to lump in all outsourcing companies as all being the same.... that being "outsourcing companies"..... resulting in that company saying something along the lines of "I hired an oursourcing company before. They sucked. Never again will I hire any outsourcing company."

Do you follow? People seem to lump them all into one singular group. It isn't right of course, but that is a hurdle you outsourcing people should be aware of if you aren't already.

In the US, if someone steals your idea or copies your product, there is legal recourse to stop them and/or recover damages. The government is on your side in such a dispute. There are no such protections when dealing with somewhere like China. That's a very bad thing in the long run if we cannot innovate faster than they copy. (which is not very realisitic to hope for .. research and development of new technology takes time)

Hope this makes sense...

Honestly, i used to really hate outsourcers. None in particular (i've never personally worked with any),
But as a programmer, I was feeling what everyone bitches about (watching tons of jobs going to guys that could get 30 guys for 5 weeks for $2 :1orglaugh) and it really kinda pissed me off. Why, i dunno, i somewhat felt insulted that i bust my ass as hard as i do, and 9 times outta ten, someone is going to go to someone like that.

I don't feel that way anymore, i've been noticing more and more people complaining about them (including people from this board), and I'm getting a bigger client base, a decent amount that are coming to me after bad experiances, and due to those experiances love my work even more. So as long as it doesn't come down to me going to Mickey D's and having to spend 30 minutes trying to figure out wtf 'sir :) fries you :) like meal with :) your plz :)' means, when i've already ordered the fries, or my doctor gets payed $2/hr (no thanks, med schools worth the extra $$ :Graucho) i'm cool with it.

My clients know i don't work cheap, but i do good work, so things work out nicely :)

EDIT: 50 for $2/hr :)

:glugglug 51 sweat shops

Thats true, they still deserve to live like royalty for their talent though, just like many of the people here do.

I know a guy from India, and he said even though the cost of living is much cheaper, its still difficult to get by, even with a decent wage.

actually when I talk about oursourcing I am talking abour real world business not so much design work. I have had much better prices with design from domestic workers than outsource. I will give you the name of the domestic designer but leave out the outsource companies that wanted to charge me more. The designer was Nick Papageorgio

Actually man.... yeah car manufacturing has left America haha, most of the plants left Detroit a while ago and its economy has suffered. There are some car plants still here in America.... they are mostly Japanese and European.

As far as government contol, do you really think they are not in control now? They allow you to do your business here, in exchange for living on their soil and protecting you from threats from outsiders as well as providing policing, preventing one company from cornering the market and raping you on their goods and services they take some of the money you made. In essence you rent space here in the US and the government is your landlord.

What I am saying is that rich businessmen are going to take money out of the American pool and put it in other countries, this is going to continue to happen because we have a "fuck you it's about me" attitude about any systems that are interconnected or not. The government is not communist, it is not going to subsidise and the more money you take away from it the harder it is going to clamp down to sustain the current way of life.

For outsourcing to work the way you are talking about they would HAVE to come in and control. They have to come in and set a lower cost of living, forcing businesses across the board to lower the price of their goods and services and also lowering taxes. It is an interconnected system like the pool example I am talking about, as outsourcing increases to companies that are not going to put money back into our economy the level of the "pool" here will decrease.

outsourcing sucks...outsourcing is definitely OUT!:BangBang:

I think this thread represents both sides of the coin and attitudes towards outsourcing. Both arguments are equally valid, for their own reasons when placed in their correct contexts.

We have the business perspective which argues that outsourcing is yet another tool to be harnessed and when used correctly, can be used to empower businesses, increase margins, and thus giving businesses additional avenues to utilize these gains in the global marketplace. Taking advantage of tools that bring competitive advantage is the very thing that drives a capitalist marketplace and is what makes businesses grow stronger.

On the other side, we have those that are worried that outsourcing will result in the loss of jobs amongst those in the west. This as we all know, over time will have wider implications in terms of the ability of those nations to sustain an economy which will be of an adequate size to shape and direct global issues. However, I don?t think anybody can dispute that outsourcing has brought about increased competition. Competition DOES breed evolution? This competition will force us to develop better working methods and technologies that will once again balance things out? until this natural cycle returns.

I don?t think anybody can stop outsourcing, capitalism will see to that. There are already pools of knowledge in developing countries that are capable of competing with traditional providers in the respective industries.

If we don?t take advantage of this tool, others will. I believe the question we must ask ourselves is, are we going to be the ones profiting from it, or are we going to wait until the Chinese or other developing nations do?

you seem to understand very little about micro and macro economics. proof of this is the fact that you think the economy is a zero sum system. its not. economies grow 2-10% per year in the real world. in your world, they apparently don't.

massive profits, continued corporate and economic growth are hardly harmful to the economy.

:2 cents:

Yes, of course. It's a nice theory.

But you don't think the insane xenophobia, jingoism, racism, and general lack of respect Americans have for people who happen to live in other countries will EVER abate enough to allow the US workforce to participate in a global labor economy?

It will ALWAYS be easier to HATE than to WORK.

And, so long as it's easier to become a member of a priveleged class in America (and by that I mean a member of an entrenched race-based class with the means to self-preserve by keeping "others" down and out), blue collar workers will never surmount the ideological hurdles that keep them from graduating high-school and keep them having babies they can't afford. So long as they have Wesley Snipes and Dre to hate and blame for their ills (looka the bad guy, breaking the rulez and getting paid), empoverished white America will remain as shackled by false ideas about who the ENEMY is as empoverished black America is for being thought the ENEMY.

What's happening in America is the widening of the rift between the haves and the have-nots.

When the dot-com bubble burst, the work pool was flooded with a shitload of people whose only qualification for white-collar employment was the memory of a six-figure income. Our economy did NOT fail to re-absorb them because their skills were no longer needed in the marketplace. It failed to re-absorb them because the economy decided that the "value" created by this type of worker was ILLUSORY. Hundreds of thousands who'd been livin' high on the tech-hog, were exposed for the unskilled impostors they truly were.

So, i'll sum it up:

1. Nobody who works at McDonalds goes to college and gets a cushy corporate job. The members of this quasi-slave labor class are more rigidly trapped there than at any other moment in US history.

2. The Children of Privelege are graduating college with NO skills, (for the buckling of academic standards under "leave-no-child-behind" bullshit GOP political pressures) and, what's worse, are coming into the labor force with a feeling of ENTITLEMENT to big salaries without ANY dues-paying.

3. A job going overseas DOES mean there is something wrong. It means our labor force has no high-value MIDDLE. On the one side, we have the unskilled and cheap, on the other side we have the unskilled and expensive.

IF WE HAD AMERICANS WHO C O U L D DO THOSE JOBS AND WERE W I L L I N G TO DO THEM AT A VALUE-YIELDING PRICE POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO OUTSOURCING.

J-

Trust is everything when working together, it's really hard to have it if you with the person everyday.

Wow. Sums it all up!

Even if I did not understand micro and macro I do have logic and common sense. An economy growing by a margin as low as 2-10% has mostly to do with large corporate gains fueled with outsourcing and that potentially can have NOTHING to do with the people of our country asx a whole other than the elite who own the corporations.

If I have a large corporation and I use India for IT, Mexicans for lawn care, Japan for technology and Hong Kong for parts then I can make a pretty penny paying them as opposed to American programers, lawn care and local computer producers. I have a majority of my money going out of the country. Likewise my friend moves his plant out of the US and into Mexico for cheaper labor, my other corporation owners producing physical goods have also and the majority of the others use the same sources for labor and work as I do, what do you think is happening? Do you think we did this so we could lower the price we charge for our goods? I don't think so, we have a industry standard and the best way to make sure we make more money "competing" is to lower what is called production costs.

WE have effectively taken money out of our pool and put it into the pools of other countries for good and services. Then I sell those products to Americans and take money from their wages and then put that money back into the other countries to produce more to do the same thing. In the meantime more americans are born and as more and more people graduate from college they look for corporate jobs which my friends and I have given to foreigners so that we can line our pockets. I am making more profit as a business owner who is paying for cheaper labor and goods and also keeping my money in foreign banks and traveling a lot spending money in other countries. So when I am reporting how my business is doing we have effectively grown leaps and bounds as a corporation "YEAH ECONOMY IS GROWING" no my pockets are growing and so is the economy of countries I and my friends are pumping money into, meanwhile Americans here can not get a job and in a few years the masses will not be able to even afford some of the goods I am putting out unless I drop the price down or the government comes in and forces me, which is possible because it does not cost me as much to produce, that is if I am not greedy.

So macro economics are fine, 3rd world countries are making money now and coming up, micro on the other hand is dwindling. Common sense tells me if you flow from greater to lesser then greater lowers to become equal IF there is not to heavy a flow into lesser in which it becomes greater.

The guys in india I am paying money to are not traveling here, they are not buying ford mustangs, they are not buying shares of Coca-Cola, they are not eating at Wendys, they do not shop at Wal-Mart can you not see that? You just spend 60k in education but your kid can not get a corporate job because I do not want to take money out of my pocket to pay them for something someone in India can do. Outsourcing is now always going to be done by anyone who is not like Sam Walton and has a gun-ho "Americans for America" ideal and refuses to give jobs to outsourced countries no matter if it means less profit for them or not. Where do you think the money we owners of corporations (and yes I do own one) is coming from. Most of you can not grasp this because you do not work a 9-5 but bare with me. The money corps make come from products/services that you buy, that money usually comes from a 9-5 that you work at producing some good or service for another company in another or the same industry.

I am just saying do not try to sugar coat outsourcing like it is some magical equilizer, it will cause a decline in the amount of jobs here in America, it will be a long time between when there are lay offs here because of it and when the government will step in and there are reforms of cost of living drops in America so that people forced to take lower wages to compete will be able to live at what we here call a decent level of living. How do you think they will do that? Do you think they will lower taxes? And what if they do, that means lower levels of funding for schools and roads, health care, defense etc. Do you think that the greedy politicians are going to take pay cuts, do you think they will feel sorry for the families out there and spend all the money on what they say they will. Maybe in your idealistic world, but in mine the mentality of the few who are in power who believe in making money for themselves with a fuck the many and the future mentalities are in control.

My respect to those who do it and admit they do it and can say that they do not give a shit, they want money. But for all the people out there who know good and damn well the effects of it and want to lie to themselves about the long term effects all I can do is shake my head and chuckle.

I don't hate outsoursing.

And I won't be reading that long ass article you posted.

My country has cheap work force.

:glugglug

There are plenty of Americans who can and will do those jobs.....we downsized them.

i am not going to address everything since you admittedly do not know what you are talking about.

i just want to point out that "outsourcing" has almost no affect on the GDP and economic growth. maybe you should take a cursory look at all the business sectors and what their contribution is to the economy before you try to argue against something you don't understand and argue against economics which you don't understand.

It is all nothing new. Your Nikes are made in China, your Levis are made in Taiwan, your keyboard was made in the Philippines etc. Almost everything you own was made outside the US. Now you are struggling to make an argument that it matters who offers customer support or who writes your code. It doesn't.

It is a behavior that is vital to economic growth and its been going on long before you were born and will continue long after.

Your arguments are more communist in nature and ignore the fact that "those fat cats" who make money are also the ones creating jobs and investing in the economy.

The harder you try to intervene in a free market and "make things fair" for everyone... the more you will fuck it up.

You don't have to be "elite" to own a corporation. There are these things called public stock exchanges now. It's amazing, anybody can by a share in the companies that are listed on these stock exchanges. :winkwink:

we are talking "outsourcing" in general here. when you talk about outsourcing, what comes into my mind is Call Center business which the Phillipines is now the Call Center Hub in the world.

Neither countries like India and China can compete with such English speaking skills of the Filipinos.

Wal-Mart is probably the largest purchaser of outsourced products in the world. How much of the stuff in Wal-Mart do you think is made in America? How much is China?

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

one intelligent answer i will surely agree with :thumbsup

:thumbsup

true, and outsourcing has made impact to a number of multi-Billion dollar companies especially in the filled of Call Center Business. don't blame the 3rd world countries if they ever advanced their technologies and level up their skills with some lazy workers.

Inorder to increase your productivity, you need to have hard working laborers who doens't complain too much on the work given.

I recently learned from a close Friend on mine who is currently working in a Call center Firm that Dell has outsourced some of their Telemarketing/Support related department in the Philippines after that incident of complaints originating from Indian support people.

People like you need not enter your :2 cents: , if you are too lazy to read and educate yourself.. do everyone including yourself a favor.. and stfu...

Thanks

Apparently, he's even missing logic and commen sense along with his education...

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

:thumbsup

Anyone that lives or has lived in Michigan that has neighbors that work for Ford or GM know exactly why the plants are leaving. I blame unions mostly. I know people that get paid 20-30 bucks an hour to work 15 minutes out of an hour... The rest of the time they nap... And unfortunatly this isnt the exception it is more the norm...

Not to mention, the foreign firms developed more efficent production and shipping methods... While we sat still.. Now we are behind and asking wtf can we do? Can my government save me?

Anyways thats just my :2 cents:

Something I find interesting is that anti-outsourcing people seem to think that outsourcing is a new thing, like some new trend that has been developed in the last few years.

Outsourcing is just another word for importing.

A company that outsources its programming to India is no different than a person who buys a Toyota that was made in Japan.

When you go to the GAP and buy some clothes, guess what? You're supporting outsourcing! Probably 99% of the clothes aren't made in your country.

The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

First of all about my education, it was in medicine not economics so the little crack about my eduction is unbased but of course you are just mouthing off behind a keyboard so continue, just thought you might want to know. I went into computers later and was smart enough to realize the bubble had popped before I spent time and money getting a degree in that like so many other people who flocked to it trying to be the next bill gates. Which is one of my points, I now know more than a few people who have lost their jobs to outsourcing and I am sure I know more and more who will never even get a job because of it. Does that bother me? Personally not at all, their fault for picking such a super saturated and easily outsourced feild, but the point still remains.

Want to see some logic in action?

Brisk: The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

jade_dragon: Pollution is not new, so are you saying it is not destroying the environment? Drugs are not new at all but as more and more potent ones become available do they not have an impact on society? But I guess I have no logic right? The ideal that a problem or destructive thing has been around and so do not worry about it "sinking ship mentality" is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

My macro/micro comment was sarcasm, I run both a very small business and a larger conglomorate, I am starting a non profit org for buisinessmen under 25 and already have attended many conventions having to do with business and economics. So it is not like I made this up, these are all things that have been shown to me with nice over priced graphs, charts and powerpoint presentations. Even those who were pro-outsourcing basically said make the money and let the government worry about taking care of the people.

Importing is the purchase of goods from another country. Outsourcing is the production of goods or services from an outside source. The idea is to lower sweat equity either through the use of others besides yourself lowering profit but decreasing the amount of personal work or to reduce the amount of workers on payroll in a hopes at lowering production cost through a cut in labor. Importing is a part of outsourcing, outsourcing is not importing.

When I buy a car that is made in Japan... well first of all those cars have been produced in the United States since the late 80's, but I will play along with your argument, IF the cars had really been produced in Japan, I still have the dealerships here that have american workers, I still have american shops that work on them. As a matter of fact I own a company that does such. the Japanese companies did this because it is cheaper and more efficient to have plants here since America consumes so many of their products, they effectively began to subsidise for the detroit iron companies who moved their companies across the border.

But since you say you know so much more than I do, answer this. If more and more people outsource what happens to your educated and uneducated workers here? What happens when you build up the economies of countries outside of your borders? What happens when Jose' now wants just as much as Ryan used to because they notice what has happened? Did you look to the future or are you living in the here and now. You guys will be the first to complain about all the homeless and the unemployeed, telling them to go get a job. Stop looking at the thing on paper and start looking at human nature which is probably hard for anyone who makes money solely here on the net. I am a capitalist not a communist I just happen to be a little more civic minded than most corporate owners. As you give more and more jobs to other countries you will demoralize and dehabilitate workers here in the U.S. it will continue this way till your outsourced countries become larger and larger, wake up and decide to up the price on you. Then I suppose we will then start paying our own workers shit wages after the government comes in and subsidises or lowers the price of living and we rebuild the working force here. I am not talking about in 2-5 years I am talking about after I am gone, but I guess I shouldn't care right? Just make my money.

i just quoted you to enjoy the irony of the fact that people will now not read it twice.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Oh and I never said I was looking for equality in countries across the board, on the contrary and maybe it makes me a bad person but I worry about my home, then my neighbors, then state, region and country before I worry about the rest of the world. I know we are all interconnected and that is beautiful, but I tend to worry about producing and keeping a job for the people down the street than putting food on the table of someone in another country.

Can you tell me why a 3rd world country is a 3rd world country and why other countries are stronger? Do you think those before us wished to have it that way or did they just fail to see it the way you guys did.

Tell me this, why can't corporations just start paying the same wages they do to foreign countries to people here? I do understand the points you have made, they are nothing new but as you have increases in unemployment one of the feasable ways to deal with this is to decrease the amount of work going to foreign countries. By the way I am a person who thinks that it is destructive but because of my own choices in life and the position I have put myself in through education and hard work I am outside the worry of being outsourced, I also do lots of business with foreign companies including those in Germany, China, Hong Kong and Japan, if I could hire a bunch of mexicans to work in my shops I would do so and pay them a pretty fair wage. I know what I do and I am ok with that, but the fact still remains I know what I am doing and I am ok with it.

lol good one :1orglaugh