I can agree with you on that :thumbsup
Now if you came to our webmaster networking with Kathi , you would get to know me and to know me is to love me :)

!@#$ I just wrote up a reply to your post Tony and it didn't go through (30 second post rule) and when I went back it didn't keep it!@

I need to go, I'll be back later to reply.

Matt

I just want to re-state the facts of this thread;

I'm not attacking Epoch/PayCom. Everything I have ever heard from anyone of Epoch/PayCom has been good.

I however was very shocked to hear from Epoch/PayCom's CEO Chris Mallick responding to me in another thread; "Were you not held enough as a child?" It was out of line, childish, pointless and very unprofessional to come from the CEO of such a large and well-known company.

Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them, though others seem to take that as a personal attack because they are using them.

I hope that this thread will continue to bring awareness to folks as to why pre-checked cross-sales exist and why they are not honest to surfers and not moral or ethical in my opinion, and in many others' opinions; I am not alone, and you will see that with people that I don't have any connection with post and make replies with the same beliefs and feelings as myself.

Anyways, I do have to go out for a bit.. I'll be back later.

Matt

Chris is one of the most outstanding people in the business.

Do you LIVE to talk shit Matt?

Brad, don't be an idiot please. Did you even read any of this thread? Or even my last post?

You people need to learn to read first before actually posting a comment. Sadly most of GFY doesn't do that.

Matt

Matt, one very important thing. I'm not going to argue the pros and cons of cross-sales because it's too lengthy an argument and it's not my place to argue it, but I do want to point out one huge flaw in what you're doing.

First, moral and ethics are based on personal values. Just because you think cross-sales are morally/ethically wrong, it doesn't mean that everyone thinks they're morally/ethically wrong. And it doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are any worse off.

Millions of people think porn is morally/ethically wrong. If one of these people tried to force their beliefs on you (which is essentially when you're doing here to some extent), would you respect them? Would you listen to them?

Want more examples? Say your younger sister/brother/cousin was dying of something, and a blood transfusion could help save his/her life, and you were the only person who could authorize it. Would you? Some religions think it would be morally or ethically wrong to do that. But they wouldn't force their beliefs on you.

On the flip side, some religions or societies think it's morally/ethically correct to allow a husband to kill a wife if she's caught cheating, but not to allow the reverse. But they're not here in Canada or the US advocating for that.

You're entitled to your opinion. We all are. But none of us are entitle to force it upon others. Doing so only makes you look worse in the eyes of many. You have no right to have a holier-than-thou attitude because of your opinion.

This thread has over 100 replies and over 30 participants. Of those 30+ participants, the vast majority aren't taking your side. And I suspect that's based on your attitude rather than your arguments, because they do have some merit.

Well, if a lot of companies are doing it and its become generally accepted practice, then why not. Expedia, Amazon (although less aggressive), dating sites, adult sites all commonly practice similiar upsell and cross-sale methods. It's not unethical at all, they're trying to sell you additional similiar products. Granted the pre-checked is a little aggressive but nevertheless it is a legitimate means of making additional sales.




I defend them because they're a legtimate business practice. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be promoting those programs. Of course it adds to my bottom line and I don't deny that.




What's wrong with doing both? Whether you like it or not, this is a business in which everyone wants to maximize their bottom line and so long as cross-sales are around, they'll be part of this mix.

WG

:1orglaugh

Hell, McDonalds, convenience stores and Future Shop do it as well. And from a psychological stand point, a verbal cross-sale attempt is a lot harder to refuse than a pre-checked cross-sale is to uncheck.

Ever say no to the extended warranty offer at Future Shop? I often don't. And when I refuse it, not only do I feel cheap, but the salesman asks me if I'm sure and then reiterates the benefits for me, empasizing that if anything were to go wrong, I'd potentially save a lot of money.

In my opinion, that's a lot more agressive than a pre-checked cross-sale that I can simply uncheck if I'm not interested and not have something make me feel cheap or unsure about my decision.

Amazon doesnt precheck them ,thats the difference. If you want to try and cross sell the customer a hundred different things during the buying process. Thats cool just dont precheck them, thats not selling thats hoping they arent paying attention.

matt i wasnt attacking you man!! :)

but on the subject of cross sales.... you assume that everyone that leaves them checked do not/will not want it and that they just overlooked it...

i have to disagree with you on that, if i was a surfer i would say what the hell its and offer to see another site i would not have known about unless i had this offer..

no big deal..

on the other hand, if it wasnt checked, i would be like well nah i dont want it, i just want this one...

its like when u go to mcdonalds and you cant decide if you want to upsize to large.. if she asks u say.. ahh ok.

if she doesnt, you just get the medium.

That's why I mentioned Amazon was less aggressive. But their system of correlating similiar items on checkout is really ingenious and works very well. Psyko514 also gave a couple really good examples at fast food restaurants and extended warranties on point of sales purchases. I'll admit that prechecked is aggressive but still legitimate.

WG

I had to respond to this before I read page 3

The key sentence here that makes me laugh in your face is:
the key phrases being "I have worked" and "off and on"

man quit crying, why do you have to broadcast your little hurt feelings?

you obviously WEREN'T held enough as a child

...and clearly not held enough as children.

I respectfully disagree :)

In the sense that pre-checked email offers and pre-checked cross sells both require an action on the part of the user, I believe it's apples to apples. I said that in a previous post. The only difference is in one case you get emails, in the other you get billed. Both results of the same in-action.

In the case of pop-ups:cross sales, the analogy was that chances are that nobody particularly LIKES to deal with them, yet we all still do.

In the case of pop-ups, in many (most?) cases, the surfer is, shall we say, actively "unchecking" the option with a popup blocker. So it could easily be argued that circumventing a popup blocker is FAR more unethical of a practice. Akin to rechecking a box that the surfer unchecked, no?

And let me say that if we are going to cater to the most dimwitted person who cant read a page before spending money, well hell lets all just quit :)

Again, respectfully.

this thread is useless without people being held as children

Maybe Chris would like to get back to nme and explain why my application for processing has not been approves or denied.

Only been 8 months now.

Will have a look and see if they took the money out of my account as a pre payment.

Have ICQed the rep dealing with me, he does not bother to reply anymore.

Great service Chris.

At the end of the day the surfer / member has the right to charge back a sale he thinks was not requested. If pre checked cross sales produced such confusion wouldn't Epoch have a hugh CB ratio and wouldn't that stop cross sales so that their CB ratio was in line with Visa's requirements. That seems not to be the case as Epoch still offer cross sales. Remember we as webmaster have the right to use cross sales or not ?



:2 cents:

Going to have to quote Chris on this one, "Were you not held as a child," Nysus?

You got your attention, now move on, dumbass...

Free trip to LA to sit face-to-face to you ? AND have it video taped?

I'm down!

I *LOVE* industry ego's

nysus- nice smoke screen trying to debate cross-sells instead of admitting you were just purely offended and over reacted. you push people's buttons and then they might just say something that bugs you.

you assume all surfers are incredibly stupid? the terms and conditions check box is Not pre-checked. The whole process requires affirmative action and the majority of people who purchase pre-checked cross sells use their user/pwd at the purchased site. surfers are more skeptical and less stupid than you give them credit for imho.

A lot rings true in your post.

While I don't think all surfers are incredibly stupid, I think a lot of them are when it comes to our business and the purchase of an online membership. From day one, I have always told my people that you have to design our sites with the the least intelligent surfer in mind. It sucks, but in this business, you really do have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

While you are technically correct that a majority of people use the u/p on pre-checked cross sells, I personally have found that it is a slight majority. We did an analysis of two sites that used pre-check cross sells about a year and a half ago...while this study was in no means sicentific..here is what we found:

61% of pre-checked cross sell u/p's were used. To me, the important figure is NOT that 61% were used, but that 39% were never used.

Of the 61% that were used, the average time between join and cancel was 4 days.

The scariest part of our study? We asked SEVERAL sites if we could do this analysis and there were only TWO that even had the ability to look at this, most didn't have a clue.

It is my opinion that the practice of pre-checked cross sells is similair to the car dealer adding under carriage rust protection without specifically spelling that out at time of purchase.

Just my opinion. I also think that I should make clear that I don't believe that all companies who use pre-checked cross sells are out to con the consumer. Many have excellent customer service and a no questions asked refund policy. The sad truth is that there are quite a few who are using it as an easy way to fuck the consumer. I was at a site the other day that didn't even have a box, simply small fine print that told them that if they didnt cancel the bonus memberships, they would be charged $39.95 a month. If I remember correctly, they were getting BONUS memberships at 3 other sites. If they didn't cancel within 24 hours, their first month charge was in excess of $125 on a $19.95 join. Now that should be illegal. If I remember the site, I will post it here.

My two cents.

>I was at a site the other day that didn't even have a box, simply small fine print that told them that if they didnt cancel the bonus memberships, they would be charged $39.95 a month. If I remember correctly, they were getting BONUS memberships at 3 other sites. If they didn't cancel within 24 hours, their first month charge was in excess of $125 on a $19.95 join. Now that should be illegal. If I remember the site, I will post it here.


That is bad :( and going to far. On the other hand a pre checked cross sale that is easily identifiable isn't the worst of what is going on..... this is hurting no one expect the ones too lazy to read terms and conditions.

Matt,

I wouldn't be debating something this hard especially if I encouraged it.

"Of course I'm going to be around and benefitting from pre-checked cross-sales, most everyone in this industry currently is.

So of I'm going to make money through them while I need to I will because it is a means to an end."


But at the same time you have said:


"Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them"

"Exploitation isn't ethical, yet it happens, and it's quite common, doesn't mean it's the best thing."


If they are that bad, practice what you preach. When you say you participate in cross sales, is it because you have no other choice?

I respect people that say what they do and do what they say. If you are so determined that they are so bad be an example, and make changes and maybe others will follow. (I wouldn't be pinpointing someone like Chris though on an industry standard no matter how bad my feelings got hurt)

:2 cents:

If it was something really bad like CP or something similiar, I would no matter who it was, but not over something like cross sells.

:2 cents:

Nysus... honestly... lighten up... your moral crusade makes you sound like John Ash*roft.... btw .. Chris' quote would make a great for a great sig line :)

:1orglaugh True!

You are a fool, who probably works in a cubical in a office. What do you do? All the big players on this board are very clear what their businesses are. They dont hide and call everyone children which is the first sign of a child. If you were once a big player it was luck you were in the right place at the right time because if you were the real deal you wouldnt be going back and forth with us little people. never talking any business just here to bust balls.

Very good point :thumbsup

morals vs business

I think morals should be used to make more money

that's what business is all about, it has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with how much you can make and how much power you can weild.

The power and profit ultimately come from the consumer, so you run your business in a way that allows you to profit the most, and keep profiting on a consistant basis.

If your "business morals" aren't right.. it will show in your profits.

Do I agree that unchecked cross sales are immoral? First you have to tell me what the profit margin is compared to checked cross sales, taking into account charge backs.

Bringing your own morals and emotion into business are foolish.. considering how other people's morals affect your business is wise

Been a long day. I'll make one long ass reply tomorrow sometime, all will be cleared..

G'night all.

Matt

did he answer the question ?? :Graucho

I had some dealings with them over something, and let me tell you they are a 100% class act. The person was (don't know if she want's her name posted) was very very professional, I can't say enough good about them. :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

son, small brained xclowns like yourself aren't the people I talk business with.
As I've explained to you before, thinking that my success and your lack there of is based on luck only identifies why you are where you are and I'm where I am.:1orglaugh


oh, and I'm not hiding from anyone. There's not a big player in this biz who doesn't know what I do.
sad for you you've admitted to not knowing what I do.:1orglaugh

:1orglaugh ... um... you might be a tiny bit off there, darling.

...still... :1orglaugh