You should choose your enemies more carefully.

Yikes, now I'm scared! your mom agree to co-sign the lawsuit?:1orglaugh

Cross-sales are fine, pre-checked cross-sales aren't honest - of course that is my opinion though others who are respected agree with me.

I'm not on a lone-crusade here - if you think I am, you need to wake up.

Matt

Keep joking, it makes you a bigger joke.

Matt

keep making threats, it makes you and your mom a bigger joke.:1orglaugh

If you knew who my friends are that support me, you'd realize I don't care who my enemies are. :)

Matt

LOL. Put your head on straight please if you want to participate in this thread.

Matt

Translation: the kids at school don't know who epoch is either.

How would you know what retains and makes money, how many years of experience managing adult webmaster programs do you have? Could you please post a number such as X.Y years of experience?

How would you know what % of CBs stem from consumer & webmaster fraud and what % is related to cross sales & unhappy consumers?

What do you actually do in this industry when you're not making yourself look like a complete moron fucking around with the CEO of a billion dollar company?

Nysus, seriosuly, I understand your point, but this thread really can make you enemies if anything.

Cross sales are part of this industry as for today, just as the whole recurring process is.

This is how we ( the industry ) make money now.

Surely, it's *theoretically* possible that cross sales or rebills will be f.e banned by the credit card companies in porn transations.
But then the WHOLE industry will have to change.

Nowadays, if an affiliate program decided to be suddenly far more surfer friendly, they would have to lower payouts and would lose webmasters and as a result make less money.

And everyone is here for the $$$$.

I don't have more knowledge than you, but this is my understanding of the situation. :2 cents:

your friends don't hold any weight if they can't process and why are they not posting to help your crusade?
I don't know you but I think Rick was right when he said choose your enemies carefully!
like I always say don't burn any bridges in this biz you never know when you will need them in the future.

It starts to get old when people think they know how you should run your business, I know I get tired of hearing it on the boards myself sometimes.
If you?re not happy with the business decisions companies make take action and start your own processing or sites that retain etc..
There is a reason why most processors have gone out of business and why ccbill and Paycom own probably over 80% of the market. Chris is a very intelligent man who I trust knows what he?s doing otherwise the company would have folded by now.

There is also a reason why 90% of the sponsors who have been in the business over 5 years all have basically the same thing. Until you have history with hard facts and numbers don?t presume you know or make assumptions
:2 cents:

Logic and common sense and information.

I know programs / webmasters will make more money at the POINT OF SALE by having pre-checked cross-sales, I'm not disputing that.

I'm attacking the morals of it.

Matt

Yup, I agree fully.

I'd prefer change though. I'd be happy if people that choose to play with their surfers / livelihood had less revenue from pre-checked cross-sales.

Pre-checked cross-sales being disallowed would force programs to produce higher and higher quality product which would increase their revenues.

It'll eventually happen. :)

Matt

Awesome - I'm glad that you're offering constructive criticism! :)

I agree with you as well.

I'm not presuming things.

As I have posted earlier, programs WILL make more revenue at the first POINT OF SALE if they have pre-checked cross-sales.

You can't say I'm making assumptions, it's fact, which is why everyone does it.

I'm questioning / attacking the morals behind it.

Edit: Who ever said my friends can't process for themselves? And why do people post or not post? Business. They don't want to burn bridges / business relationships. I however don't care about burning any bridges with people who don't care about the questionable moral practices of pre-checked cross-sales.

This crusade is simply to create awareness. Just because things are a certain way, doesn't mean they need to stay or will stay, and doesn't mean "just accept them" - of course anyone making large amounts of money off of it will of just "just accept them."

Matt

It's obvious you have no clue what makes programs money and what doesn't make programs money - both short- and longterm. Furthermore you have not the slightest idea of which US card regulations do allow what billing practices under what circumstances.

You assume things (high quality content makes more money, treat surfers like this and they will come back etc., opt-in cross sales make more money through higher recurring) based on what you *think* is correct. You have nothing to back up any of your claims.

You're a complete joke.

Nysus, I am not sure what you are hoping to accomplish in this thread. Chris posted to clear up some open issues in the other thread, he then took some time to answer questions while he could have directed questions to somebody else.

In any case, It is nice to see executives that take an active role when it comes to customer support; even though, it really is debatable if it is productive.

I have to agree with Rick, Matt.....we sometimes ask ourselves around my office "is this the hill we want to die on?"......I think you picked the wrong hill but that's your perrogative.

I just want to make one point.....you have made the basis of your argument morals which I, *personally*, think is baseless. At this point it is like an opinion and when you post your opinion you need to be ready for people to post theirs back. When you attack someone it should be with facts and not with opinions/morals because everyones morals/opinions are not necessarily the same as yours. I get emails and phone calls all the time telling me that I have NO MORALS because I host "all that pornographic stuff" and it is usualy followed by the caller telling me that I am going to "burn in hell". They do this because in their opinion it is morally wrong for any of us to be putting out Adult Entertainment Web Sites. So, who's morals are right and just? Mine? Theirs? Yours?

Now with that said, let me add that Chris Mallick is one of my best friends. I would rank him in the Top 5 Brightest Minds in our industry (and would be hard pressed not to make him Top 2). He is smart, innovative, and yes, profitable. If I were you I would take him up on his offer to meet.....if you would like me to be there I would happily be there. I have never had a single conversation with Chris where I did not learn something.....and you would too.

Oh, and by the way, I dont make any money off of cross sales....not a penny.

I like you, Matt...you know that....and I respect your right to say whatever you think....but ask yourself.....is this the hill you want to die on?



--T

:1orglaugh

I agree prechecked cross sales depend on the surfer not paying attention. Which is more often then not. Adult will always be this way because its the make the quick buck theory and no long term thinking.

Nice T ........ I was wondering if you were aware of what was going on ?

Checked crosssales are not cool. If I buy a toaster at Walmart and find out they also sold me a blender from Target on a pre checked cross sale, I missed, I call my CC compnay and charge back. I too enjoy the money i make so i am not sure I want it go away but long term this should be resolved.

OH stop please we all know what is morally right and wrong its not a opinion. Also I have a real problem with this idea we work in porn so that means we dont have to have morals and ethics. Business is business duping the customer is bad for business because a customer who has been burned by cross sales. Is a customer who may never join another site again. Once again no one thinks long term.

You're confusing business tactics of trying to look good infront of IBill clients with being active customer support. It's a clever swing on his part I must say. :)

Matt

I find it rather Ironic that One of the people Nysus refered to , who makes money with cross sells, was also asked to invest the same money in one of Nysuses infallable money making schemes.:1orglaugh

It's like it's always been - try to screw the users as fucking much as possible.

I agree with your morals.

:2 cents:

Why did you quote me to talk about him?

If people make the decision to dislike me because I'm moral - then I'm OKAY with that. So what, people know me as being moral and actually making a statement. I'd say that's a good thing - but that's just my perrogative. :)

As tony404 posted, your argument of morals being baseless and not mattering speaks volumes of whoever believes that.

AND - I'm not attacking anyone - I'm attacking pre-checked cross-sales. If people take offense to that then "that's their perrogative" but more so, it states that their morals are opposite of mine to the specific issue.

Once again, if people decide to dislike me because of taking this moral stand-point then that's their decision, as inappropriote as it may be.

Okay, I do respect what you say so I will think about taking up his offer to meet then and would be great to have your / other view points in the room, though I'd not want to go alone; would be slightly careless of me. :)

And not to question your friendship with him, but everyone knows that people befriend people who are in the same financial and mental capacity, which is why you're friends. :)

With the final comment, you're making the assumption that I'm going to be dying on a hill because of this.

If someone chooses to take my stance against pre-checked cross-sales personally, then that's their mistake, and then for me, it'd be an easy decision to not do business with them.

If you're wondering why this thread was started, it was because I did NOT expect the responses that the CEO of Epoch/PayCom made.

Tony - Do you respect what your friend said to me?

"Were you not held enough as a child?"

Even if it was sarcastic, it was meant as an attack, shallow, a stupid and pointless comment.

If anything he can own up and apologize. It was childish - and yes, I was shocked that it came from a company that I overall have only ever had good respect for, and only ever heard good things of.

Matt

Read his above posts and how he ignored my pointing out his idiocy in his attempt to attack me earlier.

He's just trying to look good to 'whoever.'

I'm sure they're all shooting the shit about me.

Matt

I don't think you're aware of what's going on.

How about you reply to my reply of your post?

Matt

How about you properly read what I post first before you reply? Thanks.

And - How about you ask someone other than myself (who may or may not like me) such as EscortBiz or SleazyDream what they think if treating surfers well with high-quality content will create higher recurring.

Even if they don't want to support me in this thread or otherwise, I've read their posts and can make a pretty good estimation of what their stance is.

Matt

In the past, I was very vocal in my displeasure with Epoch/Paycom. That was in the past, a couple of years ago. I think Chris has done a tremendous job in turning Epoch around. So much so, that I now trust them with my business and would feel comfortable refering my mother to them should she ever want to get into the internet porn field.

As for pre-checked cross sells, I personally disagree. I think it is a bad business practice and should not be allowed, that is my opinion, that is how I personally choose to do business.

It cracks me up how people refer to the business practices of the "players" in the business. What the "players" do, doesn't mean dick. I wouldn't trust most of the "players" in this business to watch my car while I ran into the store to buy a six pack. MANY of the "players" in this business got rich because for the most part the business has been, and continues to be, completely unregulated. There is A LOT of dirty money in this business.

because you were talking about Morals...... he(Nysus) thinks its wrong to do crossells, yet he wouldnt mind using the same money to further his own ends.

Thank you for your post. :)

I am NOT SAYING ANYTHING AGAINST EPOCH/PAYCOM - As I posted above the reason I started this thread was I was shocked how Epoch/PayCom's CEO acted towards me; I didn't expect it as everything I have heard and seen from Epoch/PayCom has been nothing but great.

And thank you for properly seperating dislike for pre-checked cross-sales, and individuals or companies.

Matt

oh ok lol Excuse me I just got up no coffee yet :)

I bet that if you find a big mainstream site and join their email list, you'll be presented with 6 to 10 boxes, pre-check or pre-un-checked to receive or not receive offers etc.
Thats the same idea.

Also, I'm going to bet that if allowing the webmaster to choose processor page options was more common, that you would see not only 1 or 2, but 5 or 6 crossale boxes on the majority of join pages. Half saying "Click here if you want xxxxxx" and half saying "Click here if you do not want xxxxx".

This is ancient internet form practice..

Note: Sometimes I look for no cross sales, sometimes I dont much care.

As long as a company isn't "posting" data, then it's simply a matter of your own preference in what you want to promote.

What the fuck are you talking about? Please elaborate.

Of course I'm going to be around and benefitting from pre-checked cross-sales, most everyone in this industry currently is.

So of I'm going to make money through them while I need to I will because it is a means to an end.

For example, TopBucks converts extremely well with some of their sites for me, and yes, they have pre-checked cross-sales. If there was an equal alternate which there will be eventually that don't have pre-checked cross-sales (or if TopBucks offered non-pre-checked join pages) then I will use them.

Matt

Poor kid could not make a living online so he blames his morals. Old story seen it 10,000 times.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with un-checked cross sale boxes. There is nothing wrong with presenting options to the customer. It is no different than asking "would you like fries with that" The customer is presented a choice, and is involved and active in the transaction.

Your analogy about email lists is ridiculous. If each pre-checked box on an email list meant that the customer was going to get dinged 29.95 a month on his credit card until cancellation for each pre-checked box, you absolutely would NOT see that.

On mainstream its prechecked to recieve email offers spam not to charge your credit card big difference.

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I repsonded directly to you on page 1 ......if you dont care to read it, well????

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nysus
Wow. Lovely. Who are you trying to impress?

Isn't BUSINESS hustling / making deals with people, getting investors or partners, to attempt to "get a piece of their action in return for your work" ?

LOL. At least don't be an idiot if you try to attack someone.

Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm not trying to impress anyone, let alone you. Your only business model seems to be trying to part people from their money to invest in your schemes. You need some growing up to do before you start attacking others



That was my reply ........I guess You are just too busy listening to your self

:1orglaugh

You're right.

There's a difference between being billed money and receiving email though; and I still think it's dishonest and not moral.

And, you're right again about 5 or 6 cross-sale boxes - for some.

Some people, like who spam email, who don't have surfers or bookmarkers that they care about, of course they'd want to maximize their present POINT OF SALE revenues - because they won't have the option to make more money from them later, most likely.

Ancient internet form practice doesn't mean it's ethical. :)

Exploitation isn't ethical, yet it happens, and it's quite common, doesn't mean it's the best thing.

Matt

Sorry, I missed it.

Once again, you're using defaming words such as schemes when you're referring to basic business practices.

You need to learn what's an attack and what's not an attack. You're attacking me; I've been asking for relevant replies.

Matt

Guy's, it *is* a fair analogy. The analogy isn't the money, and incidently when you have a box you have to check or uncheck to receive email offers, it's not "spam" ;) (thats a pet peeve, lol)

Anyway, the analogy is identical in that the customer must stop and read and perform an action. Either to receive the add-on, or to avoid receiving the add-on.

I'll say again, when I specifically check processor pages on sites I'm considering promoting, I will often avoid altogether if there is (in my opinion) overly agressive cross sales.

So don't think I'm all fuzzy and warm and asking for more pre checked cross sales.

I'm just stating that hey, yes it's one of those things that is out there, and the reason it's out there must be a compelling one.

Obviously the place to express displeasure is with the affiliate program operators.

But it's a valid option..

The idea is the same, but the analogy is not equal.

If you approach an affiliate program and express your dislike of their cross-sales, they won't care.

Public awareness throughout the industry is what is needed in order to force affiliate programs to care.

Matt

Sorry, Matt, never meant to imply that any of this had anything to do with whether you were "liked" or "disliked". I said before, I like you, remember? ;)






Tonys post was one of the most naive things anyone has ever said... "we all know what is morally right and wrong " .... if that were the case then he would not be in the Adult Entertainment Business. Keep in mind that I am not criticizing morals....I have plenty of them....I am only stating that they are nothing more than opinions and can not be argued as FACT. Because my morals may differ from yours it makes it an opinion.





Matt, with all due respect, the title of this thread doesnt say anything about Cross Sales or Morals...it calls out a specific person so don't even think that you "are not attacking anyone" because you are.





See above Re: "Like vs Dislike"




I only *wish* I was in the same financial capacity as Chris....nobody in this business is in the same financial capacity as Chris....Chris came into this industry with more money that anyone on this board will ever see in their lifetime.

With that said, however, let me point out *REPSECTFULLY* that your point sounds like simple class envy and that has always been a pet peeve of mine. JMHO.




Nah....just a metaphor.....don't read to far into it. It simply means, is this argument worth having? Save some for a rainy day. :)



Matt...you and I both know that it was a sarcastic post like so many on this board. The board is "Go Fuck Yourself"...dont take it so seriously. It begins to look like you are desperately trying to find something to attack so you chose to use a sarcastic remark and make something of it....not saying that is what you are doing, I am just telling you what it looks like.


As always, Matt....I respect you saying that you think...I respect your right to tell us your opinions....just be prepared to hear others back. I keep waiting for someone to throw my banner flying on your posts in my face, but the reality is that I respect you having the right to an opinion and just because we disagree from time to time does not make you a bad person or change my opinion of you.


--T

The crazy add-ons that a car salesman pulls on us isnt ethical either ;)

I'm basically agreeing that I dont care for them personally, and when I buy something online (usually a product rather than a service), I read and re-read and read once again the whole page carefully and closely before I press that final Submit button that takes my money..

I'm quite sure everyone does who cares.. you, me, everyone.

I feel similarly about pop-ups incidently, and thats a fair comparison as well. I'm betting that 90% of people really hate them like I do when I'm surfing. Yet we see people working full-time to circumvent the actions that the surfer *specifically* takes to avoid them.

Both the same answer.. the people doing it are realizing a return on investment that makes it profitable to do so...

Not sure what else to add to this other than everyone do your own homework and make the choices of products and services to promote that fall in line with how you want to do business. If a sponsor looks great to you but you dont care for the processor page options, let it be known..

Naive ? I have worked in the adult business from strip clubs to jack shacks to the net off and on for 22yrs. So dont get confused with your success on the net that your a wise old sage. I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct . I never lie or screw people over I do business with, I treat my customers like the wonderful special people they are . They give me the oportunity to work with my wife and not to have go to a day job. I thank god every night for my business. Now because I do have morals do I fuck my self out of opportunites to make alot more money ,yes I do but I enjoy looking at myself in the mirror.

The FACT is that MOST people don't. Most likely YOU do because you are familiar with the practice. MOST people aren't and don't. That is what makes its so profitable. The companies that use pre-checked cross sales understand this, that is why they do it.

Crack dealers realize a substantial return on their investment as well. So do bank robbers. So do con artists. If return on investment is a factor in determining what is ethical or not, than this becomes a whole different argument.

Pre-checked email boxes, pop-ups, etc are not the same as pre-checked cross sale boxes, they aren't in the same league. You are trying to compare apples and pencils.

Tony....you dont know me and I dont know you....I simply pointed out that you made a naive statement. In this post you made a very profound statment "I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct". I agree with you 100%. It goes both ways.

Let me clarify something before anyone thinks that I am attacking morals...I AM NOT. I am simply pointing out that my morals may be different than yours.

EXAMPLE: I bought a hosting company a while back that had one client who hosted "Non-Nude Teen Sites" (the customer was worth about $10,000 per month in revenue). Within 30 days of buying the company I asked the new customer to seek other hosting because I did not like hosting that type of site. I never said it was right or wrong, I never questioned his "right" to operate that type of site...I simply said that I did not want to host it because of *MY* morals. Does that make me right and him wrong? No. It simply shows that my morals and his are different.

EXAMPLE 2: My grandmother would roll over in her grave if she knew what I was happily hosting. Does that make her morals right and mine wrong? Again, no....just a difference of opinion.

So...please do not mistake my points as being pro-Morals or anti-Morals...I am just pointing out that the differ from person to person.


--T