Let's talk about a philosophical subject here... - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

09-20-2004, 03:24 PM

50 truths

abyss_al · 09-20-2004, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
The Truman Show?

no... thinking...hold on

09-20-2004, 03:25 PM

supper time

brb in 20 mins

and that is NOT THE TRUTH, since in the practical world, time cannot be calculated, as numbers go on forever

when I say 20 mins, I may be here in 19 mins and 59.16516816163156486416513543......(infinite) seconds

that would be the truth, but it will also be infinite

galleryseek · 09-20-2004, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
so in your opinion, there is no truth without it being discovered?

Correct to an extent. It exists but we can't prove what truth is.

Quote:

there is no truth that exists wether we like it or not?

Incorrect, it exists, we just can't prove it, therefore it isn't an absolute truth.

Quote:

why will it be truth after discovery, and not before? since it was "present" throughout both phases?

There is truth before discovery, but we can't prove what truth is until we know why and how everything has been created.

For example, this world we live in, COULD be a mere illusion created by aliens with backward logic and false ideas governing it. In the real world (the world in which they live in), 1+1=3, but this illusion that they've created, this universe as we percieve it shows us that 1+1=2.

Sounds like a crazy theory, but you can't disprove it. No one can.

Therefore, no one can really ever "know" anything.

ParasiteTV · 09-20-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
supper time

brb in 20 mins

and that is NOT THE TRUTH, since in the practical world, time cannot be calculated, as numbers go on forever

when I say 20 mins, I may be here in 19 mins and 59.16516816163156486416513543......(infinite) seconds

that would be the truth, but it will also be infinite

Time holds no 'truth' because it isnt based on a metric system...

But then again, if there is another dimension, then the metric system would hold no water either.

The only truth i see is: me + grey goose = happy tonite.

FilthyRob · 09-20-2004, 03:36 PM

Truth is believing what you are saying, even if your lying. As long as you believe it, it has to be true. In your mind anyway.

Ironhorse · 09-20-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
that's where it is my opinion that you are wrong. Although there may not BE an ultimate truth, truth CANNOT be based on perspective, as perspective is RELEVANT to each human being, varying from 1 human to another, from 1 animal to another, from 1 (spirit?) to another... how can that be called truth?

It's very simple, several individuals share the same or similar perspective, thus they share their version of the truth, while other groups share a different perspective and argue with the first group about their version of 'the truth'. Much like what we're doing here

It's all an illusion anyway, once you realize that, you will have discovered THE TRUTH about the lies. Confused? Read the book.

The truth is out there

tical · 09-20-2004, 03:42 PM

quick! the thread is dying, smoke this guys!

ParasiteTV · 09-20-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tical
quick! the thread is dying, smoke this guys!

haha

mardigras · 09-20-2004, 03:47 PM

There is absolute truth and relative truth...

If I tell you I am taking you out to dinner but my mother falls ill shortly beforehand and I rush to her side and we miss our dinner, I didn't lie to you. What I told you was the truth at the time; relative truth. The Earth revolves around the sun. Absolute truth, except to a few wackos

JesseD · 09-20-2004, 03:48 PM

Are you being truthful whenever you believe you are telling the truth but everyone else thinks you are lying?

09-20-2004, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mardigras
The Earth revolves around the sun. Absolute truth, except to a few wackos

impossible!

we SEE that the earth revolves around the sun

how can we trust our EYES and say that what we see is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

09-20-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JesseD
Are you being truthful whenever you believe you are telling the truth but everyone else thinks you are lying?

truthful and truth are 2 completely different things

but you guys have to understand, in this thread I am talking about ABSOLUTE truth, wether or not it exists, it's another story

09-20-2004, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galleryseek
Correct to an extent. It exists but we can't prove what truth is.

Incorrect, it exists, we just can't prove it, therefore it isn't an absolute truth.

There is truth before discovery, but we can't prove what truth is until we know why and how everything has been created.

For example, this world we live in, COULD be a mere illusion created by aliens with backward logic and false ideas governing it. In the real world (the world in which they live in), 1+1=3, but this illusion that they've created, this universe as we percieve it shows us that 1+1=2.

Sounds like a crazy theory, but you can't disprove it. No one can.

Therefore, no one can really ever "know" anything.

why does truth have to be proven in order to be absolute truth?

have you read the "allegory of the cave" ?

if not, let me know, Ill paste it in here

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:03 PM

Absolute truth does exist. If you and I are both looking at this thread at the same time, it is true that it exists.

This is really is the wrong board to be starting "philosophical" discussions on.

Oh, and yes, a is a.

09-20-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
Absolute truth does exist. If you and I are both looking at this thread at the same time, it is true that it exists.

This is really is the wrong board to be starting "philosophical" discussions on.

Oh, and yes, a is a.

it's very interesting to see others' opinions about such subjects! no matter what kind of people they are

09-20-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
it's very interesting to see others' opinions about such subjects! no matter what kind of people they are

and no, if you and I are looking at this thread...

this thread can be an illusion of mind, and so can your post

you might not exist, in TRUTH, but my senses (eyes) tell me that you do, and I therefore deduct that you are someone sitting behind a PC writing to me

but it's only my eyes and brain telling me this, things I cannot trust to tell me what the truth is...

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
it's very interesting to see others' opinions about such subjects! no matter what kind of people they are

I agree. Unfortunately if we are discussing absolute truths, there is no room for opinion ;)

galleryseek · 09-20-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
Absolute truth does exist. If you and I are both looking at this thread at the same time, it is true that it exists.

This is really is the wrong board to be starting "philosophical" discussions on.

Oh, and yes, a is a.

a might not be a.

abyss_al · 09-20-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
and no, if you and I are looking at this thread...

this thread can be an illusion of mind, and so can your post

you might not exist, in TRUTH, but my senses (eyes) tell me that you do, and I therefore deduct that you are someone sitting behind a PC writing to me

but it's only my eyes and brain telling me this, things I cannot trust to tell me what the truth is...

how do you know its not a mac?

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
and no, if you and I are looking at this thread...

this thread can be an illusion of mind, and so can your post

you might not exist, in TRUTH, but my senses (eyes) tell me that you do, and I therefore deduct that you are someone sitting behind a PC writing to me

but it's only my eyes and brain telling me this, things I cannot trust to tell me what the truth is...

This is with the assumption you are of sound mind. I have consciousness of self, therefore I exist. Do you?

I remember in junior high all the stoners would go off all the time: "oh wow man, mebbe we are like, someone elses dream and stuff..."

09-20-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
I agree. Unfortunately if we are discussing absolute truths, there is no room for opinion ;)

that's very funny indeed, but as humans we must "philosophize" about these things, and to philosophize is to build opinions about such things that are difficult to grasp

the only true thing is that we do not know anything

09-20-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
This is with the assumption you are of sound mind. I have consciousness of self, therefore I exist. Do you?

I remember in junior high all the stoners would go off all the time: "oh wow man, mebbe we are like, someone elses dream and stuff..."

the people inside the "fake world" of The Matrix

were they not consious?

were they not consious of the objects they were seing and hearing and feeling?

human senses and perseption are programmed to decieve

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
that's very funny indeed, but as humans we must "philosophize" about these things, and to philosophize is to build opinions about such things that are difficult to grasp

That is not philosophy. I think that is more along the "daydream" line. There are four main guidelines that need to be employed when forming a philosophical stance.

Theo · 09-20-2004, 04:11 PM

"To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, or of what is not that it is not, is true"

Aristotle

09-20-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
That is not philosophy. I think that is more along the "daydream" line. There are four main guidelines that need to be employed when forming a philosophical stance.

philosophize

\Phi*los"o*phize\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Philosophized; p. pr. & vb. n. Philosophizing.] To reason like a philosopher; to search into the reason and nature of things; to investigate phenomena, and assign rational causes for their existence.

Man philosophizes as he lives. He may philosophize well or ill, but philosophize he must. --Sir W. Hamilton.

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
the people inside the "fake world" of The Matrix

were they not consious?

were they not consious of the objects they were seing and hearing and feeling?

human senses and perseption are programmed to decieve

Ok, that is a good start for an argument. How about this though: through their perception within the "matrix" they did exist. Their perception however was falsely created while the are idle in pods. They were not of sound mind. There still was an outside influence that was manipulating their natural function of perception.

09-20-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
Ok, that is a good start for an argument. How about this though: through their perception within the "matrix" they did exist. Their perception however was falsely created while the are idle in pods. They were not of sound mind. There still was an outside influence that was manipulating their natural function of perception.

EXACTLY

so was their perception the "ultimate truth"?

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
philosophize

\Phi*los"o*phize\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Philosophized; p. pr. & vb. n. Philosophizing.] To reason like a philosopher; to search into the reason and nature of things; to investigate phenomena, and assign rational causes for their existence.

That is definitely an lit. majors definition.

Per dictionary.com, here is the definition:

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
EXACTLY

so was their perception the "ultimate truth"?

They were not able to percieve the ultimate truth, by not being of sound mind. Morpheus and his crew were, and were able to differentiate between what was real and what was not. Thier rational facilities were not under control though.

09-20-2004, 04:17 PM

4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.

and somewhere in these lines....

to philosophize, is a wonderful thing

it is the true gifts of humans

09-20-2004, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
They were not able to percieve the ultimate truth, by not being of sound mind. Morpheus and his crew were, and were able to differentiate between what was real and what was not. Thier rational facilities were not under control though.

absolutely, we're getting somewhere

so what the people in the "matrix" "experienced", it was their "PERCEPTION of truth", "what they thought was true"

correct? it was in no way the ultimate truth that existed in their universe

Theo · 09-20-2004, 04:22 PM

There's only one truth as Aristotle defines. "Your truth" is not a truth, but a perception with limited knowledge and senses.

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
absolutely, we're getting somewhere

so what the people in the "matrix" "experienced", it was their "PERCEPTION of truth", "what they thought was true"

correct? it was in no way the ultimate truth that existed in their universe

No, because truth did exist outside the matrix, but due to external influence, they were not able to experience it.

To address the other post:

4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.

You need to establish a baseline to work from. You and I, (even though we are debating the issue) both share the same fundamental assumptions and beliefs. That is the groundwork to build upon for establishing a philosophical stance.

09-20-2004, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
There's only one truth as Aristotle defines. "Your truth" is not a truth, but a perception with limited knowledge and senses.

Thank you Aristotle

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
There's only one truth as Aristotle defines. "Your truth" is not a truth, but a perception with limited knowledge and senses.

Good to see an aristotelian about.

Theo · 09-20-2004, 04:26 PM

09-20-2004, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
No, because truth did exist outside the matrix, but due to external influence, they were not able to experience it.

To address the other post:

4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.

You need to establish a baseline to work from. You and I, (even though we are debating the issue) both share the same fundamental assumptions and beliefs. That is the groundwork to build upon for establishing a philosophical stance.

so you are saying there is more than 1 truth? and truth is relevant to everybody?

But before you said "They were not able to percieve the ultimate truth, by not being of sound mind. Morpheus and his crew were, and were able to differentiate between what was real and what was not. Thier rational facilities were not under control though."

you mentionned ULTIMATE truth

so maybe you're saying that there is an ultimate truth and other truths?

if so, then what if I told you that there is the ultimate truth, and every other truth was NOT truth, but what people THOUGHT was truth? (That doesn't make it truth, only perception and opinion)

OR did I misunderstand you and you are agreeing with my stance in this thread?

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:30 PM

Quote:

[i]
if so, then what if I told you that there is the ultimate truth, and every other truth was NOT truth, but what people THOUGHT was truth? (That doesn't make it truth, only perception and opinion)

OR did I misunderstand you and you are agreeing with my stance in this thread?

[/B]

I think you are preaching to the choir. I am saying there is only one truth.

09-20-2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
I think you are preaching to the choir. I am saying there is only one truth.

fantastic then, you and I share the same opinion

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
fantastic then, you and I share the same opinion

I do disagree with calling it an opinion though

09-20-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eve
I do disagree with calling it an opinion though

can we call it perseption instead and agree with eachother?

Eve · 09-20-2004, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bdjuf
can we call it perseption instead and agree with eachother?

Heh. I dunno about that. How about stance?

By the way, I am a hardcore objectivist in case you could not tell.

09-20-2004, 03:36 PM	#56
FilthyRob Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Anaheim - CA Posts: 6,741	Truth is believing what you are saying, even if your lying. As long as you believe it, it has to be true. In your mind anyway. __________________ AKA - Clubsexy

09-20-2004, 03:42 PM	#58
tical Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 6,504	quick! the thread is dying, smoke this guys! __________________ 112.020.756

09-20-2004, 03:47 PM	#60
mardigras Bon temps! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: down yonder Posts: 14,194	There is absolute truth and relative truth... If I tell you I am taking you out to dinner but my mother falls ill shortly beforehand and I rush to her side and we miss our dinner, I didn't lie to you. What I told you was the truth at the time; relative truth. The Earth revolves around the sun. Absolute truth, except to a few wackos __________________ .

09-20-2004, 03:48 PM	#61
JesseD Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 473	Are you being truthful whenever you believe you are telling the truth but everyone else thinks you are lying? __________________ TUBE TITANS - GET PAID ON ALL FREE LIFETIME REGISTRATIONS!

09-20-2004, 03:25 PM	#53
buddyjuf Guest Posts: n/a	supper time brb in 20 mins and that is NOT THE TRUTH, since in the practical world, time cannot be calculated, as numbers go on forever when I say 20 mins, I may be here in 19 mins and 59.16516816163156486416513543......(infinite) seconds that would be the truth, but it will also be infinite

09-20-2004, 04:03 PM	#65
Eve Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 805	Absolute truth does exist. If you and I are both looking at this thread at the same time, it is true that it exists. This is really is the wrong board to be starting "philosophical" discussions on. Oh, and yes, a is a.

09-20-2004, 04:11 PM	#75
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	"To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, or of what is not that it is not, is true" Aristotle

09-20-2004, 04:17 PM	#81
buddyjuf Guest Posts: n/a	4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs. and somewhere in these lines.... to philosophize, is a wonderful thing it is the true gifts of humans

09-20-2004, 04:22 PM	#83
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	There's only one truth as Aristotle defines. "Your truth" is not a truth, but a perception with limited knowledge and senses.

09-20-2004, 04:26 PM	#87
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515