Why does there have to be a start?

Ohboy. Here we go again.

101 wanna-be theists

To many, the evidence is all around us. Those people think you should take the blinders off.


And it's not about gambling or a crap shoot or being forced into something or any of that. Anyone who believes will tell you that it is about having faith that there is a higher power in the universe than yourself. That's all.

And it will suck for the non-believers if they're wrong. :1orglaugh

You're attempting to use Pascal's Wager, but Pascal didn't take other religions into account. He simply assumed that christianity is right. What about all the other thousands of religions. How many of them say "this is the only true way"? If you choose the wrong religion, then you're worse off then an atheist if you choose the wrong religion.

Why will it suck for the non-believers? We'll all be just as dead.

So what happens if we don't believe? If you don't believe in something, then to you, it isn't there or doesn't happen.

But to take from the often-random thoughts of most believers, "God is a forgiving God who loves all of his children, even those who screw up." If that's the case, then why does he send non-believers and evildoers to hell?

Give me an example of evidence of god's existence.

Here you go with the gamble again. That's exactly what Pascal's Wager is, a gamble. That's why it's called "Pascal's Wager".

How do you know there is a "higher power"? Give me some piece of objective evidence please.

Not another God thread

Why sit here and argue about who's right and who's wrong?

NONE OF US KNOW THE TRUTH UNTIL WE'RE DEAD
SO WHY BICKER ABOUT IT

Live every day like it could be your last and quit worrying about the unexplainable

Goddammit, Pete, see what you started? :feels-hot

No, I simply don't care about religions. Religions are institutions created by man. There are many Christians who don't tie themselves down to a religion, and there are many who believe that God takes many forms to many people but that he/she/it is all one God.

I'm not saying my own beliefs are that way necessarily, I'm not saying anything about myself in fact. But I will say that there is an answer on both sides for every point in this issue, and the debate is endless.... mostly due to the fact that even the most highest educated knowitalls are working mostly from theories, not facts. No one really knows what happens after you die until you die. Then you know. Either you're dead and gone so you won't know anything either way, or there is...... something else.

Ahh, someone who gets it. Nice to see.

This is why people like you have never gotten it, and will likely never get it. *I* don't have to prove anything to you. It is not incumbent upon *me* to show you anything nor any evidence. *I* am not God, and faith comes from within, not without... as any true believer will readily tell you. And lastly, *I* am not the one struggling with this issue or this concept of believing.... but *you* are. I am not ridiculing anyone's choice to believe or not believe..... others are.


Sure makes me think about which side is more skewed in their attitudes towards others and in their thinking in general. I would rather hang out any day with someone who doesn't judge and ridicule others than some of you fuckers. Some of you are "holier-than-thou" only in reverse. :1orglaugh

1. You contradict yourself when you say "There are many Christians who don't tie themselves down to a religion," because christianity is a religion.

2. According to christianity, the only way into heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. That means that all other religions are wrong and their believers will earn an eternity in hell.

You can't have it both ways. If you accept a doctrine, then you can't accept only the bit you like and ignore and contradict the rest.

Please research the scientific method and read scientific journals. Scientists work from facts, where do you think their theories come from? Do you think they just sit around and make shit up?

I am not struggling with issues of belief anymore, I struggled with that long ago and I am not comfortable with my position. You are struggling with your position. That's why you said I should "look aroud" as evidence of god's existence, but when I ask for something better you renig and say that you're not going to do it.

I'm just asking questions and challenging ideas. You're the one getting bent out of shape and making all sorts of accusations and doing name calling. He who cannot argue his point will prefer instead to personally attack his opponent rather then his arugments.

Just answer the questions and follow where the evidence leads.

This isn't just about believing or not, and choosing the "right" religion. This is also about living a good ,sharing and peacefull life. That's what most religions are about...

The planets in perfect rotation, the amount of oxygen versus carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere (and if there was any less amounts of these gases in the air, we wouldnt be able to live), flowers blooming... All these millions of different types of animals perfectly interacting with nature and the environment...the brain, more powerful than any computer to this date, the human body for that matter, all the genetics that make us up.... Babies being born and growing into full human beings, something as trivial as a fucking smile........................and I'm supposed to buy that a large bang made this all up, and every single detail in this universe as it is today? perfectly in 1 bang??? nah, thats ridiculous...something is out there

If what I believe is false, then I've lost nothing.

If what I believe is true, you've lost everything.

Point 1.
This is a misunderstanding on the definition of religion, Christianity, Islam and such are named religions but I myself for example and I think CD too take offense in this word coz it often presumes organized religion which is man-made... in example going to church etc.

Christianity for me is a way of living, not to be typed "religion" coz this makes it sound as something organized as described above. So this is not a contradiction tho a difference in definition. :2 cents:


I don't see what you're trying to say with point 2 but it's probably related to some other post I skipped.

Evolution is something you obviously believe in, if you do, this makes you a "believer" too yet of the evolutionary theory. It can be typed "religion" too... hence the difference in definition on "religion"

No disagreement here, but that's not what happens when you try to take a religion literally. Fundamentalism, the literal belief in a religious text, has been one of the greatest banes our world has ever known. One of the reasons I ask people questions is to try to get them to think outside of the literal box. Some are willing to and some are not.

Just because something is complex and beyond your understanding doesn't mean it's magical.

Where did you get my belief in evolution from? I never stated or even suggested that.

I believe in gravity.

Is gravity a religion?

I lean towards three arguments. The big bang, the creation theory, and the evolution theory. Since no one is 100% sure of how we got here or why, I'm open minded about the whole thing.

That or we're just an experiment gone horribly wrong...

Edit: Just noticed that contradiction... Who's to say the big bang isn't the same as evolution? What if the big bang created a supreme being that in turn created us? :disgust

I have some news for you... based on what you have said, you aren't Christian. If you aren't organized, and collecting money, and intimidating people by telling them they are going to hell if they don't accept what you say without question, then you can't call yourself a true "Christian". Those are the rules; ask the pope or Billy Graham.

1. I contradict nothing. "Christian" does not connotate a specific religion, it indicates a belief. Get your head on straighter before saying others are contradicting themselves.

2. I'm not going to have to repeat myself am I? Since you won't shut up with the arguing about every minor point I put forth, the fact is that there are many Christians who interpret the bible's written word in different ways in some of it's parts. I have yet to see a group of people sit down and study the word and not at some point interpret certain passages to mean something different than the person sitting next to them.

3. I can have it any way I choose to believe to have it. Who are you to say what someone can or can't have in the way of spiritual beliefs? I'll tell you who you are boy, you are nobody.

So ?
No need to call it something.

Let's call it "LIFE"

I'm a "LIFER" then

Big Bang ?
Yeah why not ?
But what was before the big bang ?:Graucho
Like SPOKE would say: "Fascinating"

Yes you are.

No, see here is where you go off the mark and misread the plainly written English sentence I wrote. What I said was "To many, the evidence is all around us. Those people think you should take the blinders off."

I said nothing there about me. I then explained that it is not up to me to prove anything to you, much less justify what my personal beliefs may or may not be. For one, my beliefs are mine and really none of your business.

No, the way I see it is that I am the one who is calm and you are the one who is being arrogant and struggling with my words. You don't know me well enough to know when I might be getting "bent out of shape", but I can tell you that there is little chance of you being the kind of person who could get me that way.

As for personal attacks, what more personal an attack than some idiot ridiculing someone for their spiritual beliefs?.... which some on this thread have done to others.


Again, need I remind you and every other argumentative non-believer on this thread that at no time have I ever said what my own beliefs are. All I've really said to start you puppets jumping is that "it's going to suck if, when you die, you're wrong"..... that's all. And so far no on has disagreed with that remark, only attacked because of it. (as in 'struggle') :1orglaugh

The irony is his brother's name is Paul.

hey!! is this Pete??? Pete "the Fly"??? What's been up man? I missed seeing you around online...

Btw, there's nothing wrong with believing in God. Just have a relationship with him,

Do what you think is best for that relationship and if you dont feel right about something in your heart, then make changes.

Stay in touch with God through prayer, thank him for the good in your life, pray for help with the bad stuff,

Every once in a while if you notice on opportunity to do good...just say to yourself ..."this is for you Lord because you I know you care about me, I'm gonna show that to someone else"

No need to go overboard, just whatever you feel in your heart at the time.

Any other religion that doesn't encourage this kind of attitude may not be right.

What do ya think? :)

Not the same Pete.

I just saw Passion Of the Christ.. and it kickass! :thumbsup

boring
senseless and flat (if you understand what I mean)

and what do you know about animals and plants?
I didn't say that they have no something after the death. Maybe they have? Just you know nothing about it...and the life doesn't go as you think...maybe unfortunately

I don't think "gravity" could 'stretch' to be a "religion." However, it does make a good example.

You believe in gravity. Can you see it? Can you feel it? No, you see and feel the "RESULTS" of gravity. With a belief in the area of religion, there is no "RESULTS" portion until "after" the belief.

And, yes, there ARE noticable "results." Then, it becomes "realtime." And it's the hardest thing in the world to do. Yet, so simple.

You've heard it all. It's just not time yet.

Some people do some people dont. Its what makes you happy.

So you believe that we evolve from monkeys? LOL

You are ignorant.

If we did, why are there still monkeys?

I don't know where you got those ideas but I think you're mistaking Roman Catholics for Christians here... you are a Christian if you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior... that is all.
So now tell me again why am I not Christian?

I'm just pointing out there's a difference in definition, religion assumes an organization, traditions etc. (Catholics i.e.)
I do not see myself as religious, I am a Christian and that is my lifestyle... call it what you want I'm merely pointing out the difference in opinion.

Smart remark... I think I like you :thumbsup

so are you for ridiculing others because of their beliefs... your "title" says enough about you as a person.

Another idiot that associates belief in God with Truth of the Bible. Why will it suck to be a non-believer if they die? Because the BIBLE says they'll go to hell?

Ignorance!! There IS no eternal torment!!

To me, I ALSO see the Bible as "Santa Claus" for adults. Many people can't handle many of life's truths. They would be shattered emotionally if, for instance, they had to face the fact that once we die.... we die. That's it. We're gone. There is NO afterlife. And no amount of group peer-pressure to believe ancient myths is going to change that fact.

But let's say there was an afterlife... good or bad. Does it make ANY sense to you that a God who is supposed to be a better father than any earthly man could ever possibly HOPE to be, would punish us FOREVER for screwing up during our EXTREMELY SHORT time here on earth? Our minds are mortal. We can't comprehend the idea of never-ending, everlasting life. But isn't it ridiculous to think ANY father would punish his children FOREVER when they screw up for a SHORT time? Should I spank my son daily if he talks back to his mother a few times? And keep spanking him for the rest of his life for that sin? "Well, I warned him!" just wouldn't be a good enough explanation to the courts that would take him away from me if I did that. And that example is not even as ridiculous as sending a person to ETERNAL damnation for a short life of sin, no matter HOW many times they were warned. Whatever happened to the part in the Bible where Jesus commands "forgiving 70 x 7 times in one day"? 490 sins a day is what Jesus commanded that we allow people. I guess it's different on matters relating to "eternal life", eh? For some reason, that makes me snicker.

Am I correct in assuming that neither of you has done any real research into Darwin's theory?

If man did indeed evolve from apes, then it was only by a happenstance genetic mutation. This mutation then evolved into mankind, which would explain why monkeys are still in existance.

That's it in a nutshell, but there's much more to it.

And like I've said before, I really don't give two shits what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs are not shoved off on me. :thumbsup

good for you, I'm very happy for you

Yeah, the story goes: God was created out of nothing, and then created the universe out of sugar and spice, which came from ... uhh ... nothing. Ok, so God can create something out of nothing, but only he can, because he, himself, was created from nothing.

See, if I can use logic, anyone can.

Prozac wearing off?

Nonsense wrapped in pretend logic. Very effective in its deceipt, but any thinking person will see through it. I can pull off a skull and see a brain. There's no evidence to suggest any supreme being exists... either empirical or logical.

What WILL be the conclusion? You have the answer?

Won't suck for me. Any God who would send his children to hell for using the logical minds he gave them to determine the only logical conclusion - that he doesn't exist - is not a god I want to spend eternity with.