In your opinion the US "The US has no part in *anything* to do with the Middle East or anywhere else that is not US jurisdiction." The US Government clearly disagrees with you opinion and has disagreed with that opinion for number of years. I view the word "terrorist" as being a label...thus that is why I always try to remember to enclose the word with quotes. I personally prefer the word enemy as whoever is trying to kill me or my countrymen...I view as being an enemy and no more than that.

I have a feeling that the majority of the american public believes that there are more pressing DOMESTIC issues that should be addressed before dealing with anything foreign.

But I guess America is a big place and we consume and waste more than our share of resources, so we have to mess around with other countries all the time to keep things in check at home.

The ground war was in fact won in 3 weeks because at that point no organized military forces such as the Airforce...Navy and Army was resisting...no uniformed military forces existed at this point and the US military had military control over the country of Iraq. Just because certain former members of the military choose to fight on they fight on as "insurgents" and not as members of any organized military force.

As initially reported by who?

Enlightenment - $10

In my life time...the Americqn public has always been concerned about Domestic issues and a percentage has always taken the position of "fuck foreign" issues and take an isolationist/fortress America point of view. The more intelligent members of the American public realize that foreign issuses have much to do with domestic issues and some kind of a balance has to be maintained between the two issues.

Definitly . I hope US will attack Iran . Thoses fuckers threat people like shit and don't let them think .

Initially reported by General Tommy Franks...to the Secretary of Defense and to the President.

Here's a better question/reply for your previous reply theKing....

Do you think we have ever fought a war or battles, with our guys out of uniform in 'stealth' mode?

It's a pretty common tactic when you are outnumbered or want to blend in no?

Does that make our guys who have done it (or are doing it now), rebel civilians or independent insurgents?

Or are they still undercover military?


Obviously the people who are fighting oppose us and the new government and have since day 1 of the ground WAR.

Call it what it is, that's all I'm saying.

The US is always wants to relabel things and is afraid to state the truth - to the point that it makes our own people and the rest of the world sick of our governments deception.

This isn't Nazi Germany, this isn't the USSR.

I thought we were supposed to tell it like it fuckin' is around here.

theKing:

It sure appears that there is is basic conflict/confusion within the US about their messing in the affairs of other nations.

The whole principle of a nation is that it is operating and managed by that nation - not by the US.

Do you mind if Chile expresses in interest in the management of North Carolina and Kentucky? They have every right to do so according to "US government policy".

Perhaps that is the underlying reason for the astoundingly notorious track record at relationships with other countries on the planet.

I don't have *any* enemies - never likely to have. That does include the US, despite you may have thoughts otherwise.

Perhaps if the foreign policy advisors visited a shrink and got straighten out a bit on what countries they "actually" have *any* authority in (read the US) and what countries they should stay the fuck out of - this may be an actual enormous benefit to the people of the US.

Do other counties have these split personality problems or so many enemies? Wonder why not....

All of these guys are pointing fingers of blame in every direction for the "bad information" regarding WMD and any other lie or stretched truth they get called on.

You'll have to do better than that.

goBigtime:

That is just a cesspool ... There are decent honorable men in the middle of that shit, but it's still a cesspool and they know it.

Overall... it's the most astounding failure so far this century - tho plenty time for more *s*

When you consider the resources available and the total irrelevance of them - it's too silly. We have massive budgets allocated to the largest "intelligence" system in the world, but they did not even have "feet on the ground" and, in the instance of Iraq, relied on information via UN weapons inspectors.

To compound that the specific reason for evicting UN weapons inspectors was that the Iraqi govt had repeatedly asked them to stop "spying" for the US. There were even complaints from the IAEA that this was complicating their inspections.

Neither the UN or IAEA is a intelligence service for the US - they represent the international community and clearly supercede anything to do with the US.

You asked the question "As initially reported by who?" in reference to

"The ground war was in fact won in 3 weeks because at that point no organized military forces such as the Airforce...Navy and Army was resisting...no uniformed military forces existed at this point and the US military had military control over the country of Iraq."

It was in fact General Tommy Franks that reported to the Secretary of Defense and to the President that major combat operations were over and the Iraqi Military had was defeated. FYI it was also General Tommy Franks that recommended to the President that he announce this fact to the Nation...I do not know if he recommended that it be done from the deck of an Aircraft Carrier...I doubt it. This information is from General Franks own mouth during a recent interview that was aired by the media.

The bottom line with the "intelligence" is:
they interpreted it, and acted upon it the way they wanted to for their agenda.

No big secret there at this point.

theKing:

King... does it matter if Franks said what and when on the deck of an aircraft carrier, in some "boardroom" or bunker?

The problem is not with Franks - the problem is the fundamentals or all "words" spoken by whoever have absolutely no credibiity and cannot be relied upon.

This is a common factor in almost all aspects of "annoucements to the public"and in dealings with foreign governments - nada credibility.

That is the reason there is no help coming to the US - It's a matter of clean up your own shit, then we may talk.

IMO - Tommy Franks is jonesing for martial law to be declared and to repeal the constitution.

Yeah, I trust him.

(he was talking about "all clear" Bush on the aircraft carrier)

... I'd rather point this out than let the theKing do it... that way he has to reply to the rest if he wants to reply to something :winkwink:

goBigtime:


Well.... yea! :winkwink:

If you take that as face value, which I have no problem with - that just makes the whole situation even more damning.

Personally... I'd like so see some trials and defendants :-)

This has cost many lives - not just those of US soliders acting in good faith, but many more lives in other countries.

Add to the the "shock and awe" that dumped tons of depleted uranium in both Iraq and Afghanistan and you have a "terror" that far outlives Saddam Hussein and all he had killed. A "terror" that is already affecting US soldiers and many thousands in Iraq. This will continue long after Hussein and Bush have disappeared from the face of this earth.

I'm not here to get into a heated debate with u fat fucks.

But from DAY 1 Iranians were sayign that the US will invade them aswell! Nothing new here, i just wanna see them strike in the US! So u fucker can feel safer, and dont be mad at them attacking you! Be mad at ur guvernment, they are the ones bringing these terrorist attacs to the USA!
They wouldn't attack u if ur guv didnt fuck shit up with them in the first place.

FUCK STOP WATCHING CNN! THINK LOGICALLY! FUcking TARDS!

Intelligence collections are analyzed by the intel analyists and much of it is an interpretive art and not a science...and there ususally is never a 100% consensus among the analylists from the bottom to the top. The job of the intel agencies...as explained by the acting DCI in a hearing before Congress just a few days ago...is to pass along to the President as well as other parties that are privy to the information...which includes the House and Senate Intel committees...the consensus report of the analyists and the desenting comments of the analyists as well. It then is in the hands of the Administration as well as Congress to make their own interpretations of the information that has been proivided to them. Congressional Intel committees were privy to the same intel that was provided to the President and the Congress consenually agreed that based upon the intel Iraq possessed WMD's/WMD materials. FYI General Tommy Franks believed the intel that was provided to him.

It is a...now known...fact that the consensus intel was incorrect...and this has been confessed to by the involved intel agencies. The reason provided for this is...the intel agencies started off with a wrong assumption (based primarily upon the reports of the original inspectors when they left Iraq...I believe in '98). Having started off with a wrong assumption...every bit of intel that seemed to support the wrong assumption was used to enforce the wrong assumption. A major SNAFU syndrome.

100 election-year-loving Iranians


I agree. I don't feel the people that made the final interpretations were qualified to make them.

There is not any truth to your statement at all as General Tommy Franks was asked about Martial Law and comments that had been attributed to him about this subject. What he said was that after 9/11 Martial Law could have been declared and he is pleased that it wasn't...but also stated that if we are hit again in a big way Martial Law...at some point could be declared...thus the "terrorists" would have won...in a certain sense...a major victory.

sixxxthsense:

Well... yea, but some don't get the message even after decades of shit :winkwink:

The tendency is STILL "this is how it's going to be" whether it is even within their realm of responsibilty or not. The world does not see it this way and is clearly asking - What the fuck are you doing now?

There is a reason for what the US now calls "terrorism" and has, as it sees things, so many "enemies" - it's so damned obvious...

I never said it was true. I was using neomedia tactics. Neomedia isn't about truth, it is about reporting opinions and interpretations.

I am stating my opinion and interpretation based on things the man has said.

You can't prove without a doubt that he's NOT jonesing to have martial law declared can you?

He definitely views it as an option (and that's scary enough) much more than getting rid of the administration that is getting us into shit with the rest of the world.

theKing:

Reckon you probably used the right term there!

We got a billion dollar intell agency that works on "assumptions"...

I could get one of them together for under a $1m and if you wanted something three shades better and more reliable... let's call it $100million.

We don't need "assumptions" or "analysts" to state some facts - facts come from "feet on the ground". It saves office space :-)

King.. you seriously think that the intell service is that bad that it talks so much shit?? I don't really think so :winkwink:

Exactly. The figurehead will do exactly what the lobby groups demand.

It's time for the US/Israel to be humbled, to get kicked in the teeth once and for all. Stop your imperialistic ways, stop meddling in internal affairs of foreign nations. Maybe then the world will view you in a more positive light.

You are free to think that the policy makers (the Admin and Congress) that were the ultimate interpreters of the intel provided to them were not qualified to make the interpretations. Those policy makers were elected by the voters of the US and in our system they can be removed from office...every two years for members of the House...every six years for members of the Senate and every four years for the Administration. I assume...that if the US voters are displeased with the current Administration...it will be removed come November...as will members of the House and Senate who have displeased their constituents as they come up for re-election.

Goatse:

There's an art in tweaking the right fingers at the right time in puppetry - magic stuff! :winkwink:

When you even consider what a lobby group is.... There are over 6400 lobbying orgs in Washington - that is a total corruption of the word "democracy", even before it gets off the ground.

Who was it we were elected to serve?? :-)

:thumbsup

The assumption was primarily based upon reports provide by the original UN Inspectors...so maybe the UN is the one that holds the ultimate blame for providing incorrect reports...based upon their interpretation of information they collected between '91-'98.

This is not the first intel failure and not the first failure of policy makers to correctly interpret intel that was provided to them...and unfortunately will not be the last. Perceived facts come from feet on the ground (we have not had enough feet on the ground for many years as Congress is the one that allocates the budget) and those "perceived facts" are combined with other collection sources and then the combination is analyzed by the intel analyists. Bad intel is more common than it is uncommon...and anyone that has spent a long period of time in combat arms in the military is all to aware of this phenom.

Lobbyists...in general are a good thing...but like many things they are abuses by some lobbyists as well as by the ones that they are lobbying. In all walks of life there are the White Hats...and the Black Hats...but mostly there are Grey Hats.

Pig shit.

theKing:

Don't blame the UN/IAEA cos some assholes then made assumptions/interpretations on data.

The UN/IAEA is not the spy agency for the US - never has been. This was part of the problem with weapons inspections in Iraq - the US was getting in the fucking way as usual.

The UN/IAEA are not "US employees" or "advisors" - they represent the international community and answer to the international community.

On the eve of this latest adventure into Iraq, there is little doubt that IAEA were more than aware of the actual situation in Iraq and had little doubt that Saddam would not be using any "problem material" in the course of this invasion.

As for the Powell "evidence" to the UN was already known to have no factual basis. Hell.. I even knew this shit - it was all over the world media and old news already discounted. Again.. a credibility problem.

It's just that the US did not care to listen.... there were other issues, - like the "liberation" with troops being greeted with flowers and other issues at that time, such as the well-being of "the women of Afghanistan". :-)

BTW... What happened to these "women of Afghanistan" where there was so much love and concern for?? They are not doing too well and neither are the women of Iraq....

theKing:

No king.. it's certainly not pig shit.

It is a severe problem that is well-known. I'm sure most folks wish no harm on either the US or Israel - but you can't have your cake with double cream all the time....

Some call that greed.

:thumbsup

theKing:

Sure... agree this can be good. The problem is when large sums of cash become "standard practice".

This is no more than "legalised bribery" which, in many other democratic countries would result in terms of imprisonment.

In fact.. hell.. it extends more than that... even to standards of truthfulness in advertising currently being conducted by both parties. This is "real" pig shit :-) Again.. only in the US.... Elsewhere is jail term.

The UN Inspectors that were in Iraq from '91 to '98 discovered...and in some instances were supplied with information by Iraqi people that involved WMD and WMD materials. They destroyed many thousands of rounds of Artillary/Mortar rounds that contained WMD materials...they destroyed tons of Chemical and Biological WMD materials...upon leaving Iraq they reported that they had destroyed approximately 95% of Iraqs WMD's and WMD materials as well as equiptment to produce same. It was the remaining 5% that became an issue as well as Iraq's abilitity to re-constitute its WMD facilities and the knowledge that they had to reconstitute weapons and materials.

BTW the United States is not only a member of the UN but is the major financial supporter of the UN...thus is a well known member of the international community.

British intel...French intel...German intel...Russian intel...Israeli intel and US intel were all in agreement that Iraq possessed WMD/WMD materials...thus the 15 to zero vote by the UN Security Counsel for Resoultion 1441. We now know that President Putin informed the US that Iraq was planning for an attack on the US. I repeat all of the above intel agencies concurred and have not stepped away from that concurrence.

Just a few days ago I watched a documentary about the women/girls of Afghanistan and according to the documentary...in gereral the women are faring very well...in dress...in education...in entertainment and many of them have their own businesses created with the help of US orgs as well as others...and some are becoming politcal. They are no longer being stoned...they are no longer being executed.

If any policy maker is caught accepting an illegal contribution/bribe there is a consequence. Senator Tortelli (once a powerful Senator) quicky comes to mind. He is now history...and if I recall correctly there are more than one currently in prison. No one is above the law in the US including the most powerful man in the world...the President of United States. One was not only sued in civil court while in office but faced criminal charges...had to pay a multiple thousand dollar fine...and lost his license to practice law...and in addition was impeached by Congress.

I'm sure you don't need to be reminded that more people voted for Gore than Bush:glugglug