Paysystems Out Of Business? - GoFuckYourself.com

TonyL · 08-07-2004, 11:09 AM

Paysystems processing went down yesterday and nobody can give a straight answer over there. The normal weekly payout was not deposited on Thursday and processing went down on Saturday.

Control Panel Message:
"IMPORTANT NOTICE - Technical Difficulties
A technical issue has resulted in disruption of transaction processing for all card types. Our technical team is working diligently to resolve this situation. At this time, we do not have an anticipated time for resolution.

Please note that your account will not be assessed any fees for declined transactions.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this has caused and appreciate your understanding. "

So they aren't paying and they can't process. Sounds like there bank shut them down to me.

This the end of another processor?

BRISK · 08-07-2004, 11:11 AM

directfiesta · 08-07-2004, 11:11 AM

sorry but : LOL

Theo · 08-07-2004, 11:15 AM

this saturday or last saturday?

xclusive · 08-07-2004, 12:36 PM

That sucks i'm thinking that they are DOA

mrthumbs · 08-09-2004, 06:15 PM

any update on this?

BVF · 08-09-2004, 06:31 PM

they have a nice slick website I'll give them that

Ar3s · 08-09-2004, 06:35 PM

TonyL · 08-09-2004, 06:47 PM

Still no idea when they are going pay and still no idea when they will be processing again according to them.

"our technical team is working diligently to resolve this issue" is all you get when you call or email.

I love the run around. Im already setting up a new processor. Im tired of these damn processors having no accountability.

JulianSosa · 08-09-2004, 06:59 PM

Dear myPaySystems merchant,

Due to circumstances beyond our control, we must terminate our myPaySystems
Internet Billing Account (IBA) services. This unfortunate situation is due
in part to, restrictions imposed by the VISA/MasterCard association on
processing of Internet credit card transactions by third party billing
companies, and, our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank,
suspending our accounts and accelerating the termination of our IBA
processing capabilities.

All merchants currently processing through an IBA will no longer be able to
process transactions and we are forced to give notice that effective
immediately, August 9, 2004, your myPaySystems IBA Agreement is terminated.
Further, as per section 9.3(e), notice is given that all funds must be held
pending risk review of each account. At this time no release schedule is
available, as each case attracts its own risk profile. There are also
external factors which require final determination. Once we ascertain the
resolution of your risk scenario, your funds may be released in the normal
course.

As we valued your business, we pursued all possible alternative processing
options for our merchants and had implemented a transition plan to migrate
all of our qualified merchants from a myPaySystems IBA to their own merchant
accounts. It was due to the sudden actions of Pago eTransaction Services
GmbH/Deutsche Bank that we were unable to complete the migration. If you
continue to require online payment processing services you may contact other
payment processors that provide similar services. Searching for "process
credit cards online" in any search engine will provide you with possible
alternatives.

At this time PaySystems will only accept written communication concerning
this matter, addressed to:

TonyL · 08-09-2004, 07:35 PM

Yep exactly what I suspected. Guess im fucked out of my $30k this week. I like how they will only take mail notification to there legal department. So they can just hold my money now that I need to run my business and decide when they want to release it. They must love there contract lawyer right now.

Theo · 08-09-2004, 07:38 PM

this is gonna be BIG

chupachups · 08-09-2004, 07:41 PM

WFT? Wasnt the guy behind PS entrepreneur of the year 2003 or something?

Theo · 08-09-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chupachups
WFT? Wasnt the guy behind PS entrepreneur of the year 2003 or something?

no that was John Atherton (adstats)

JulianSosa · 08-09-2004, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
Yep exactly what I suspected. Guess im fucked out of my $30k this week. I like how they will only take mail notification to there legal department. So they can just hold my money now that I need to run my business and decide when they want to release it. They must love there contract lawyer right now.

Sorry to hear it man.

Mutt · 08-09-2004, 07:48 PM

i just went to their site, they don't provide third party cc processing - who would be using this company? if it's a gateway for people with their own merchant account the money is not with these people but with your merchant bank so how can you be out 30K?

other than TonyL who is using paysystems and why?

Theo · 08-09-2004, 07:52 PM

Mutt, till 1-2 months ago they were doing 3rd party processing. HUGE mainstream billing company. I know many from this board use paysystems.....

JulianSosa · 08-09-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mutt
i just went to their site, they don't provide third party cc processing - who would be using this company? if it's a gateway for people with their own merchant account the money is not with these people but with your merchant bank so how can you be out 30K?

other than TonyL who is using paysystems and why?

paysystems.com was gateway
mypaysystems.com was a 3rd party biller

Very big in non adult. They did recurring billing and free trials.

DatingGold · 08-09-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JulianSosa
Dear myPaySystems merchant,

Due to circumstances beyond our control, we must terminate our myPaySystems
Internet Billing Account (IBA) services. This unfortunate situation is due
in part to, restrictions imposed by the VISA/MasterCard association on
processing of Internet credit card transactions by third party billing
companies, and, our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank,
suspending our accounts and accelerating the termination of our IBA
processing capabilities.

All merchants currently processing through an IBA will no longer be able to
process transactions and we are forced to give notice that effective
immediately, August 9, 2004, your myPaySystems IBA Agreement is terminated.
Further, as per section 9.3(e), notice is given that all funds must be held
pending risk review of each account. At this time no release schedule is
available, as each case attracts its own risk profile. There are also
external factors which require final determination. Once we ascertain the
resolution of your risk scenario, your funds may be released in the normal
course.

As we valued your business, we pursued all possible alternative processing
options for our merchants and had implemented a transition plan to migrate
all of our qualified merchants from a myPaySystems IBA to their own merchant
accounts. It was due to the sudden actions of Pago eTransaction Services
GmbH/Deutsche Bank that we were unable to complete the migration. If you
continue to require online payment processing services you may contact other
payment processors that provide similar services. Searching for "process
credit cards online" in any search engine will provide you with possible
alternatives.

At this time PaySystems will only accept written communication concerning
this matter, addressed to:

One of our NON dating sites uses them, we haven't gotten that message yet though. Lesson of the day don't put all your eggs in one basket.

TonyL · 08-09-2004, 11:28 PM

The lesson here is: the whole aggregate model (3rd party billing) is coming to end soon.

All of the billers have gone down the same as Paysystems. They claim everything is ok right up until the very last second and then they post this kind of crap.

It's working it's way up the chain, Paysystems was next in line they were huge with 3rd party billing.

Who's next in line?

contentjunky · 08-09-2004, 11:37 PM

Sounds like another GINIX Deal. Fuck Paysystems. Im sorry for all you webmasters who use them and have money on a roll over account and is on hold. Im truly sorry. Been There Done that with them and GINIX. Fucked both times. These guys I feel set up shop run a LEGIT business temporary and see all the money coming in and run wait for the right time and call it a technical problem and run for the hills with our cash. Cant prove it but just a feeling I have.

Bastards for making webmasters lives hell.

EviLGuY · 08-10-2004, 12:02 AM

Yeah I think Paysystems is toast..

Zprogramz · 08-10-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
The lesson here is: the whole aggregate model (3rd party billing) is coming to end soon.

All of the billers have gone down the same as Paysystems. They claim everything is ok right up until the very last second and then they post this kind of crap.

It's working it's way up the chain, Paysystems was next in line they were huge with 3rd party billing.

Who's next in line?

I agree - How many 3rd party processors have gone under this year so far?

Z

EviLGuY · 08-10-2004, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zprogramz
I agree - How many 3rd party processors have gone under this year so far?

Z

Yeah its scary times...

directfiesta · 08-10-2004, 08:53 AM

They ran into huge problem with DirecTV when they were processing merchants selling illegal de-scrambler and cards. I know that they reached a settlement, but at what cost???? Maybe drained their business.

Also, notice that their bank was in Germany ( our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank ), so in the Europe zone... I tried to open with them and they answered that they only did german corp....

Anyway, they fucked me in dec. 2001 when they decided that my adult account was immoral ... So I already lost the reserves.... long time forgotten.

Sorry for the guys that are hit.

pxxx · 08-10-2004, 08:55 AM

damn it went out of business.

{fusion} · 08-10-2004, 09:11 AM

holy shit!

mrthumbs · 08-10-2004, 09:35 AM

mrthumbs · 08-10-2004, 09:38 AM

TonyL or anyonwe elese using paysystems and doing fair volumes please hit me up on icq

160272407

mrthumbs · 08-10-2004, 12:37 PM

bump for the people that still think its a tech issue as stated by paysystems ;)

NETbilling · 08-10-2004, 12:41 PM

That is a bummer. They were a pretty large company. If Netbilling can assist anybody looking for a processing home, let us know. We will be glad to help with no Netbilling setup fees.

Mitch

Houdini · 08-10-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta
They ran into huge problem with DirecTV when they were processing merchants selling illegal de-scrambler and cards. I know that they reached a settlement, but at what cost???? Maybe drained their business.

Also, notice that their bank was in Germany ( our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank ), so in the Europe zone... I tried to open with them and they answered that they only did german corp....

Anyway, they fucked me in dec. 2001 when they decided that my adult account was immoral ... So I already lost the reserves.... long time forgotten.

Sorry for the guys that are hit.

They also got fucked for processing for pharmaceutical sites and almost lost their processing with Mastercard about three months ago.

NETbilling · 08-10-2004, 12:54 PM

Website is down also, huh?

Mitch

TonyL · 08-10-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by netbilling
That is a bummer. They were a pretty large company. If Netbilling can assist anybody looking for a processing home, let us know. We will be glad to help with no Netbilling setup fees.

Mitch

I contacted Aaron yesterday. We sent our merchant pacakage out to you today via FedEx. She said two weeks till we can process again. Any expidite possibility?

-Tony

iBill_EU · 08-10-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
I contacted Aaron yesterday. We sent our merchant pacakage out to you today via FedEx. She said two weeks till we can process again. Any expidite possibility?

-Tony

Tony, hit me up on ICQ and see what I can get you going on....
202740086

-Dan

NETbilling · 08-10-2004, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
I contacted Aaron yesterday. We sent our merchant pacakage out to you today via FedEx. She said two weeks till we can process again. Any expidite possibility?

-Tony

Hi Tony,

ICQ me your company name and I will check on the status and see what I can do for you.

ICQ#117496436
[email protected]

Thank you, Mitch Farber

Chris · 08-10-2004, 04:43 PM

who is going to handle my checks

lacorporacione · 08-10-2004, 09:08 PM

If anyone needs merchant accounts - we setup same day.

See my sig!

Zprogramz · 08-10-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JupZChris
who is going to handle my checks

Check with Netbilling. They have a great check processing option.

Z

Varius · 08-10-2004, 09:19 PM

I remember two years ago when I had to go down in person to their offices to get a problem solved (wasn't happening through phone or email).

They were like 'oh no you can't come down here sir', I told them I worked only a few blocks away and would be there shortly

Anyhow, their office shocked me; I was expecting a small 5 person operation, but they had a super cool office and 150 staff members.

Long story short, they always have technical issues...it never ends....well except perhaps this time.

Personally, we have 6 merchant accounts and CCBill as a third-party, so we're safe

Today's lesson: Stockpile as many merchant accounts as you can. You never know when you'll need them or when some will drop. (Most only need 10k/month or so to keep the account active...so if you're serious, you should start applying!)

TonyL · 08-11-2004, 11:32 AM

After summing it up Paysystems owes me: $61,749.60

I'll let you guys know if I ever see a dime of it. Unlikely.

-Tony

directfiesta · 08-11-2004, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
After summing it up Paysystems owes me: $61,749.60

I'll let you guys know if I ever see a dime of it. Unlikely.

-Tony

Shit ! Sorry man...
I have to go. I received another bankruptcy enveloppe for Globill.... I also just found a pic of the "goodies" basket they had sent.

Will post it later ... for the nostalgia...

PS: I am about 20 minutes away from Paysystems and Shwan Forrest ....

Rich · 08-11-2004, 12:31 PM

Another one bites the dust.

MattO · 08-11-2004, 12:45 PM

The craziness continues.

I predict some major announcements over the next few days.

And you'll be seeing more models like ePassporte is using, stored value cards.

08-07-2004, 11:11 AM	#2
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	__________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

08-07-2004, 11:11 AM	#3
directfiesta Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 29,744	sorry but : LOL __________________ I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT ! But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

08-07-2004, 12:36 PM	#5
xclusive Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 35,218	That sucks i'm thinking that they are DOA __________________ I support MediumPimpin.com / Shemp's Outlawtgp.com /

08-09-2004, 06:31 PM	#7
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	they have a nice slick website I'll give them that __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

08-09-2004, 11:37 PM	#21
contentjunky Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chatsworth, California Posts: 377	Sounds like another GINIX Deal. Fuck Paysystems. Im sorry for all you webmasters who use them and have money on a roll over account and is on hold. Im truly sorry. Been There Done that with them and GINIX. Fucked both times. These guys I feel set up shop run a LEGIT business temporary and see all the money coming in and run wait for the right time and call it a technical problem and run for the hills with our cash. Cant prove it but just a feeling I have. Bastards for making webmasters lives hell. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Let me repeat... A 120 x 60 button and no more that 3 lines of DEFAULT SIZE AND COLOR text.

08-07-2004, 11:09 AM	#1
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	Paysystems Out Of Business? Paysystems processing went down yesterday and nobody can give a straight answer over there. The normal weekly payout was not deposited on Thursday and processing went down on Saturday. Control Panel Message: "IMPORTANT NOTICE - Technical Difficulties A technical issue has resulted in disruption of transaction processing for all card types. Our technical team is working diligently to resolve this situation. At this time, we do not have an anticipated time for resolution. Please note that your account will not be assessed any fees for declined transactions. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this has caused and appreciate your understanding. " So they aren't paying and they can't process. Sounds like there bank shut them down to me. This the end of another processor?

08-07-2004, 11:15 AM	#4
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	this saturday or last saturday?

08-09-2004, 06:15 PM	#6
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	any update on this?

08-09-2004, 06:35 PM	#8
Ar3s So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: ICQ : 207880728 Posts: 4,307

08-09-2004, 06:47 PM	#9
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	Still no idea when they are going pay and still no idea when they will be processing again according to them. "our technical team is working diligently to resolve this issue" is all you get when you call or email. I love the run around. Im already setting up a new processor. Im tired of these damn processors having no accountability.

08-09-2004, 06:59 PM	#10
JulianSosa Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,042	Dear myPaySystems merchant, Due to circumstances beyond our control, we must terminate our myPaySystems Internet Billing Account (IBA) services. This unfortunate situation is due in part to, restrictions imposed by the VISA/MasterCard association on processing of Internet credit card transactions by third party billing companies, and, our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank, suspending our accounts and accelerating the termination of our IBA processing capabilities. All merchants currently processing through an IBA will no longer be able to process transactions and we are forced to give notice that effective immediately, August 9, 2004, your myPaySystems IBA Agreement is terminated. Further, as per section 9.3(e), notice is given that all funds must be held pending risk review of each account. At this time no release schedule is available, as each case attracts its own risk profile. There are also external factors which require final determination. Once we ascertain the resolution of your risk scenario, your funds may be released in the normal course. As we valued your business, we pursued all possible alternative processing options for our merchants and had implemented a transition plan to migrate all of our qualified merchants from a myPaySystems IBA to their own merchant accounts. It was due to the sudden actions of Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank that we were unable to complete the migration. If you continue to require online payment processing services you may contact other payment processors that provide similar services. Searching for "process credit cards online" in any search engine will provide you with possible alternatives. At this time PaySystems will only accept written communication concerning this matter, addressed to:

08-09-2004, 07:35 PM	#11
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	Yep exactly what I suspected. Guess im fucked out of my $30k this week. I like how they will only take mail notification to there legal department. So they can just hold my money now that I need to run my business and decide when they want to release it. They must love there contract lawyer right now.

08-09-2004, 07:38 PM	#12
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	this is gonna be BIG

08-09-2004, 07:41 PM	#13
chupachups Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sweden/Spain you sum bitch! Posts: 6,576	WFT? Wasnt the guy behind PS entrepreneur of the year 2003 or something?

08-09-2004, 07:48 PM	#16
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	i just went to their site, they don't provide third party cc processing - who would be using this company? if it's a gateway for people with their own merchant account the money is not with these people but with your merchant bank so how can you be out 30K? other than TonyL who is using paysystems and why?

08-09-2004, 07:52 PM	#17
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	Mutt, till 1-2 months ago they were doing 3rd party processing. HUGE mainstream billing company. I know many from this board use paysystems.....

08-09-2004, 11:28 PM	#20
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	The lesson here is: the whole aggregate model (3rd party billing) is coming to end soon. All of the billers have gone down the same as Paysystems. They claim everything is ok right up until the very last second and then they post this kind of crap. It's working it's way up the chain, Paysystems was next in line they were huge with 3rd party billing. Who's next in line?

08-10-2004, 12:02 AM	#22
EviLGuY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: malta Posts: 12,745	Yeah I think Paysystems is toast..

08-10-2004, 08:53 AM	#25
directfiesta Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 29,744	They ran into huge problem with DirecTV when they were processing merchants selling illegal de-scrambler and cards. I know that they reached a settlement, but at what cost???? Maybe drained their business. Also, notice that their bank was in Germany ( our acquirer Pago eTransaction Services GmbH/Deutsche Bank ), so in the Europe zone... I tried to open with them and they answered that they only did german corp.... Anyway, they fucked me in dec. 2001 when they decided that my adult account was immoral ... So I already lost the reserves.... long time forgotten. Sorry for the guys that are hit. __________________ I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT ! But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

08-10-2004, 08:55 AM	#26
pxxx First African GFY Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 12,114	damn it went out of business.

08-10-2004, 09:11 AM	#27
{fusion} Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,650	holy shit!

08-10-2004, 09:35 AM	#28
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	ouch

08-10-2004, 09:38 AM	#29
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	TonyL or anyonwe elese using paysystems and doing fair volumes please hit me up on icq 160272407

08-10-2004, 12:37 PM	#30
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	bump for the people that still think its a tech issue as stated by paysystems ;)

08-10-2004, 12:41 PM	#31
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,586	That is a bummer. They were a pretty large company. If Netbilling can assist anybody looking for a processing home, let us know. We will be glad to help with no Netbilling setup fees. Mitch __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

08-10-2004, 12:54 PM	#33
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,586	Website is down also, huh? Mitch __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

08-10-2004, 04:43 PM	#37
Chris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: icq: 71462500 Skype: Jupzchris Posts: 27,880	who is going to handle my checks __________________ [email protected]

08-10-2004, 09:08 PM	#38
lacorporacione Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 252	If anyone needs merchant accounts - we setup same day. See my sig! __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Let me repeat... A 120 x 60 button and no more that 3 lines of DEFAULT SIZE AND COLOR text.

08-10-2004, 09:19 PM	#40
Varius Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 6,890	I remember two years ago when I had to go down in person to their offices to get a problem solved (wasn't happening through phone or email). They were like 'oh no you can't come down here sir', I told them I worked only a few blocks away and would be there shortly Anyhow, their office shocked me; I was expecting a small 5 person operation, but they had a super cool office and 150 staff members. Long story short, they always have technical issues...it never ends....well except perhaps this time. Personally, we have 6 merchant accounts and CCBill as a third-party, so we're safe Today's lesson: Stockpile as many merchant accounts as you can. You never know when you'll need them or when some will drop. (Most only need 10k/month or so to keep the account active...so if you're serious, you should start applying!) __________________ Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail Last edited by Varius; 08-10-2004 at 09:20 PM..

08-11-2004, 11:32 AM	#41
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	After summing it up Paysystems owes me: $61,749.60 I'll let you guys know if I ever see a dime of it. Unlikely. -Tony

08-11-2004, 12:31 PM	#43
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	Another one bites the dust.

08-11-2004, 12:45 PM	#44
MattO The O is for Oohhh Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: AUSTIN TEJAS Posts: 10,861	The craziness continues. I predict some major announcements over the next few days. And you'll be seeing more models like ePassporte is using, stored value cards.