rowan

TGP surfers are conditioned to expect jerks. Many of them just close the trade and click on exactly the same thumb again to get the gallery.

Paul Markham

So basically if I come to your house and steal a third of your goods that's fine?

Or someone steals a third of my content, he's not stealing?

It seems doing things wrong by half or a third is acceptable by some people. Well it's not by me.

Maybe if I signed up to a site, stayed 3 months and only charged back the last month that would be acceptable to?

The whole thing rests on where the traffic is sent and who ultimately benefits from it. Does it go to another TGP page that is trading hits back or does it go somewhere for the benfit of the TGP page owner?

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harvey

just to make it clear, I'm undecided on this matter, just questions, quite logical ones. But the most important: let's say tomorrow all sponsors decide to avoid the use of their content to make thumbs for galleries (just in case, since we're all so "legal" try to find one that allows cropping and altering of copyright, or use in another domain than the ones permitted by them). Does it means all TGP will disappear? Or simply that they'll need to get legit and buy the content they use or at least get a written permission to use it?

aw, btw, you're putting in jeopardy the sponsor since some content producers will consider that the sponsor is giving content fro promotion whic he is not allowed to

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harvey

could be. could be not

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Paul Markham

After reading some of the thread it seems the hits are being redirected to a very unfriendly place.

He warns you need a good anti virus program if you click on the links.

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psyko514

Many people benefit from it.

A lot of TGPs would have little traffic if it weren't for trades/skims like that.

So if that third click didn't go elsewhere, chances are there wouldn't have been 2 other clicks to go to the sponsor.

TGPs generate their traffic through skims. They send the traffic to sponsors. The sponsors can't make money without traffic. The TGPs can't send traffic without skims.

You figure out who the winner is here. IMO, it's a win-win situation all around.

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psyko514

then again, we'll never know if that's true or not as he had the site deleted.

maybe he lied? maybe the pop-ups were from another site or some spyware on his PC? maybe his copy of norton was tweaked a little too high?

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Elli

I am not personally attacking or insulting anyone here. I'm sorry if I came across that way. I am simply asking for information, so I can form an educated opinion.

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Jakke PNG

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Jakke PNG

Not all providers allow content to be used in hosted galleries.
As far as thumbs go, I remember reading somewhere that they were not under copyright....I can be 100% wrong though.

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..and I'm off.

crockett

iwantchicks.. I honestly do not believe you have a clue.. your posts just prove it..

First off I've read the sponsor in question's site twice, and he doesn't even have a TOS posted.. so how in the hell can he claim any one is breaking any rules when none are posted? Did you even bother to look at the sponsor's page? I bet you didn't.

second off if you don't understand how traffic trades benefit the sponsors and you really believe 99% of TGP's trade 99% of their traffic then it's not worth arguing with you about.. as you just don't understand the concept and how things really work.

I will give you a quick example... I sign up for a new trade.. I send him 1000 hits in 24 hours he in return sends me 1000 hits that produce even a modest 1,500 clicks. Well that's an extra 500 clicks to galleries or trades that I didn't have yesterday. However to be honest most trades get better productivity than that.. so a simple 1000 hits can easily turn into 2k or 3k clicks to galleries or trades.. with even 40% to trades, that is still and extra 700 out of 1000 going to galleries.. How is this bad for the sponsor or the gallery submitter?

how long do you think it would take a site with only hard links to gain a extra 700 clicks in a day? I'd say pretty damn hard. On top of this 99% of the sponser are clearly "A" OK with TGP's the send traffic that also do traffic skiming..

Remember even a crappy 50% to galleries is more than 0% if the TGP didn't use the galleries.


harvey

he was installing toolbars not virus, I'm not a fan of it, and I'm against it but if that was the norm on his site that's his right and it seems his trades are OK with it. BTW your Idea about buying some content and using those thumbs for trades would never work.. as the surfers would easily figure that one out..

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harvey

Allow me to disagree, at least to some extent. Let's say that instead of existing 1 mil TGP there were only 1000 because the other wouldn't be able to survive. That means 1000 times less free porn and a heavily targeted traffic, skyrocketing ratios for TGP owners and sponsors with a minimum effort. Furthermore, TGP owners would be able to sell almost any spot for (say) 200 dollars and yet it would be profitable for sponsors (not to mention TGP owners). So, how this (hypothetical) situation compares with your scenario? This is a win win situation, the one you're mentioning is just the way things are right now. Status quo, if you like

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rowan

One other aspect of skimmed trading that hasn't been touched on here is that modern scripts only trade unique surfers.

That means if I send a surfer to a trade, I will get back a completely different surfer in return. The result? A much greater number of eyes available to view the galleries.


To bring up another analogy...

Imagine you're on a street with a lot of strip clubs. You enter one and you find yourself in a hallway with a number of doors. A doorman welcomes you. Each door has a photo on it. You choose a door you like, enter the room, get a lapdance, then return to the hallway. You do this a couple of times, but as you go to open the next door the doorman steps in front of you and gently guides you to a another club on the street. You then have the option to return to the previous club and try the same door again (he won't stop you this time), or perhaps some of the photos in the new club might catch your eye, so you try them instead.

The doorman in the new club has already greeted you and sees which doorman delivered you. He makes a note in his book to return someone else to that club.

The end result? More people pass through each club, and ultimately more people pass through each door for a paid lapdance.

Elli

It sounds to me like everyone is biting the hand that feeds. The TGP is jerking around its surfers and then expects them to ultimately pay someone money.

And as has been stated, the surfer doesn't even have to click on the "jerked" site to count as a hit. So he isn't really traffic at all. He's just inflating the "hits" to that site.

I'm curious (again). A 500k TGP that does skim trades vs a 100k TGP that doesn't: who has more productive traffic (ie: traffic leading to sales off galleries of their own tgp)?

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Paul Markham

What a riduculous statement.

Do you think the guy who's ready to spend money wants to be messed around by being sent in circles? NO, he wants to use TGPs as a guide to the next site he signs up to. He wants to click a link and see what has aroused his curiosity.

This method of trading traffic is annoying to the serious porn consumer and an aid to the free surfer. Problem here is too many people think like free surfers and not enough think like porn buyers.

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rowan

Since the sites are different sizes, is it really productivity that matters? The important thing is how many sales each generates.

I have found that (VERY roughly) a non skim TGP will make about 4-5 times as much as a skimmed TGP of the same size (where size is the number surfers loading the TGP page).

To balance that out, the skimming TGP could easily be 4-5 times the size of the non skimmed TGP. It's the same amount of sales at the end of the day.

Captain Canada

All tgps used to get either submissions or build their own galleries, most still do and yes that includes buying content. The sponsors seen a way to try and break into this market by appealing to the basic needs of any business man - cheap labour (the free hosted gallery) and high profit (no expenses and all the signups). Many tgp's dont bother too much with free hosted galleries as they tend to be seen everywhere and aren't really the best galleries out there. But implying that tgps who use free hosted galleries in some way are not legit is, I think, a disservice to most tgp owners.

FlyingIguana

when the surfer gets sent to a traffic trade the number of links on that tgp that they click counts as as something called productivity. the more productive your surfers on another tgp(ie the more links they click) the more traffic gets sent back to your site from the other tgp, which allows you to send more traffic to galleries and trades. thus allowing you to get more traffic from other tgp's.

so if you trade with a shitty tgp and surfers don't click anything on their site, chances are you won't get much traffic back because the script should kick in and say your traffic is shit so i'm not sending him shit.

you know, i think i could have made that sentence longer

crockett

that's where productivity comes in.. if a trade sends you 100 hit's but those 100 hit's produce 50 clicks then it's a bad trade and you dump him.. In return most of my trades produce double the amount of clicks vs hit's sent.. meaning that 100 hits turns into 200-300 clicks to galleries which in turn 30% of the clicks are sent to trades to further grow my trades which sends more traffic to the galleries.

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Jakke PNG

Are you serious?
I have started 2 sites at the same time.
one skims one doesn't skim

the one that does skim gets only 14,000 daily hits.. but I send 15,000 to my trades and 19,000 to galleries daily.

So.. we can gather that the person coming to my site likes the site since he's clicking multiple times. Also 90% of my SE hits come in by searching my domain name.. so they must not be all that disappointed.

Now, another site I started at the same time doesn't skim. It's now 1200/day (and I feed traffic to it from my skimming site) and it sends out 400 hits to trades and 2000 hits to galleries.

As a sponsor.. would you prefere 2000 hits to your galleries, or the use of your thumb and 19,000 hits?


Don't you people (sponsors) know how tgp's work? If you don't.. why on hell do you offer fhg's? Shouldn't you probably look into it first? Next thing I know you suspend an affiliate for using your precious bandwidth and converting only at 1:500

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Jakke PNG

Do you either surf for porn or run a tgp?
No? Why do you argue? It's like me arguing with you on how to shoot content.

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..and I'm off.

psyko514

Yes, it's status quo. But it's still win-win.

The situation you describe is ideal, but unlikely anytime soon. And so we must accept the status quo.

Elli, it would depend on the percentage of skim. And a 100K TGP without skim is very rare these days with the exception of an elite few.

A TGP getting 100K hits a day without doing blind trades/skimming is a TGP that really knows what it's doing. It would take a hell of a lot of work to build a 100K TGP without blind trades and without purchasing bulk traffic. And a 100K TGP not skimming won't stay at 100K for long if it's only using sponsor hosted galleries.

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Captain Canada

This is it exactly - this is a very informative thread, so is the one on green guys. So many people who have been in this industry for a long time have really no clue how a major part of it works.

We have to live and work in the world the way it is, not the way we would like it to be. Any sponsor who offers free hosted galleries will have one of his pics thumbnailed and linked through a traffic tradnig script - thats not something that might happen - that is something that 100% will happen. To be a sponsor and not know this is amazing.

Elli

Well I certainly have got myself an edumacation tonight! I'll suspend judgement until I go and mull it over for a while. Thanks for the info, guys.

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Jakke PNG

To quote shemp:

N00b : "Should I start a TGP"
Mr. Shemp : "Yes if it says 1998 on your calendar"

Old-skool elite people who've updated their sites for a half a decade and have been here since the beginning can afford NOT to skim. They are big already. Now, a new guy with 100 hits/day from search engines can't expect to grow a non-skimming tgp in a month or 2 (the maximum attention span a newb has).. so skimming comes to play. Anyone with a bit of talent can grow a skimming tgp to 100k's of visitors per day.. and become a 'big fish' and make decent money.

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harvey

well, I'm a believer in going to the best, not what is commonly achieved by majority

Anyway, very interesting thread, will check it again tomorrow (well, later since it's "the next day" here), now I go to sleep

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psyko514

let's use TGF's numbers and say that a skim TGP sends approx. 10 times as much traffic to a link than a no-skim TGP does.

i have my skim TGP. 25% of my clicks are skimmed. i get 4000 clicks on a gallery link. 1000 are skimmed to another TGP and 3000 are sent to your gallery.

i have my no-skim TGP. i get 400 clicks on a gallery link. all 400 go to the gallery.

3000 > 400.

even if my skim TGP gets 5 times as many hits as the no-skim, 1500 > 400.

we're talking 4-8 times the traffic here, and to get it, all you have to do is let the TGP owner use your thumb and allow some of the people clicking on your thumb to be skimmed instead.

of course, these numbers are hypothetical, but not far off. the fact still remains that a skim TGP has the potential to send a lot more traffic to a sponsor than a no-skim TGP does.

and more traffic = more money.

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Jakke PNG

..not to forget that most sites have sponsor banners/ads on the TGP page itself. Usually a sponsor also used in the galleries.
Would you rather have 1000 impressions or 10000?

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extreme

The argument for using others ppl content for skimming under the pretext that it generates more sales for everyone seems false to me. Why would it?

Traffictrading cant produce more surfers with CCs through some black magic process. It's the same surfers. Just that the same surfers hits more sites during his online time.

The ultimate easy example:

site A, no skim/trade: 1k hits, 5 sales a day.
site B, no skim/trade: 1k hits, 5 sales a day.

Now they start trading through skimming with eachother.

Why would the total amount of sales (10) go up? It's just inbreeding of the same surfers? This example should be valid in a bigger context as well.

You might say, "cause he sees something on site B that site A didn't have".

Ok, but this shouldn't make the global amount of sales go up either, cause if the surfer doesn't like A he'll close it and go back to google and hit up another pornsite. (fallback "trading" through google). Now im open for arguments against this theory.

...On the other hand I can see one good thing with skimming. More skim is less easy free porn.

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FlyingIguana

what people mean by sales go up through skimming is that traffic goes up meaning more hits to galleries and thus more sales. its not that it increases the amount of sales exracted from tgp surfers, but it gives you a bigger piece of the pie than you might otherwise see by not skimming to get more traffic to your sites.

extreme

Im trying to understand exaclty what you mean here.

It's Not extracting more sales from the surfers you say? (makes sense, CCs doesn't get invented cause of trading).

But yet you say sales go up?

In my above basic example with site A and B, just how exaclty would the sales go up for both just by switching some traffic?

Im not out to bash skimming as a method, I just want to understand what the users of it find so good about it.

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Jakke PNG

How hard it's to understand?
..or are you playing dumb?

As hard as it might be to understand TGP's are created to make the TGP OWNER more money, not the sponsor. Now, if you get 1000 visitors per day you have 1000 opportunities to sell. If you get 10000 visitors, you get 10000 opportunities. Granted those 10000 might have been someplace else and not buy.. but so could those 1000. People don't just magically appear from thin air. Why do people trade anywaysm, hard links or skimming.. the point is to grow your TGP so you'll have the opportunity to trade with new and bigger sites, and again get fresh traffic coming in. If everything goes well and people like your site (the new people coming in) they might become bookmarkers, and then you have one 'free' person you can send again and receive more fresh people..


I feel dumb explaining the very principles of trading that has been around for years to ppl. Please... try to understand. Better yet, if you don't own a TGP or aren't a sponsor.. it doesn't concern you, so jump off the bandwagon.

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..and I'm off.

FlyingIguana

you're looking at it from the tgp industry as a whole. whats good about it is from the individual perspective, they can create a tgp with more traffic by skimming which results in more sales.

now to your example, skimming could in theory increase sales to say 11 or more. if the surfer didn't find what he wanted on site A, maybe he'll find it on site B. a sort of tgp synergy. whether or not it works in practice, who knows it would be fairly hard to measure with accuracy.

extreme

hah, calm down there cowboy, we're just having a discussion.

Of course the TGP is created to make the TGPowner money, that's not what we're talking about.

I can see the point in trading if you run a better site then the ones you're trading with. Send away a surfer that doesn't like what he sees and closes down but get a fresh one back that will think your site is the shit and stay.

"People don't just magically appear from thin air."

No, but from google ;).

Actually what this thread was really about from the start was that some ppl claimed that using sponsorcontent to promote their skimms (and not the sponsors sites) was ok since it generated more sales for that particular sponsor in the end anyhow. (win-win).

I fail to see how and why that should be the case.

That it's better for the TGPowner is clear to see, but that wasn't the basic disagreement that this thread got started because of.

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enter »

Seems there's just as many clueless people here as on GG's board when it comes to TGP's.

I only read the first page of this thread but I can't believe some of the arguments.

In the words of the infamous Irwin M. Fletcher "Maybe you guys need a refresher course"

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Jakke PNG

Cowboy eh? lol. I'm not upset. I just find it amazing how many don't have a clue.

Your site does NOT have to be better than the next guys to trade traffic. Many people I know have the principal of getting rid of surfers as soon as possible. Therefor adding volume to your site.

Targetting SE traffic to TGP's isn't a way to grow a site.

As for the original topic... Think, it's pretty obvious if you give it some thought.

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..and I'm off.

FlyingIguana

a finnish cowboy? hmm, finnish cowboy twinks?

Jakke PNG

If you think I'm a twink you need to check your gay vocabulary.

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..and I'm off.

extreme

mmmm gay cowboys, yumm.

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extreme

You might be good with trading and running paysites. My arena is google. I do have free sites but trading with blindlinks somehow doesn't arouse me. Maybe I've just missed the potential.

Seems to be a obcession with "growing" sites, by any means. What good are thoose numbers if you have to send away the majority? Whatever the surfer could expect to find on that other site, couldn't you just add that yourself?

Each time you send someone away, sure, you get a new surfer back. But couldn't you as well be sending away a sale?

As for the original topic, which I felt was the major defence from TGPowners that using sponsorcontent in skimmingthumbs was ok since it would generate more sales for the sponsors in the end,(win-win), I still haven't heard any good arguments against me. But oh, nevermind.

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enter »

What don't you get? As the site grows, more traffic goes to the galleries. A 60% skim on a 10K TGP sends 6K to the galls and a 60% skim on a 100K TGP sends 60K to the galls.

If a TGP grows it's good for the site owner and the sponsors he pushes.

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Jakke PNG

It's just funny how I get more money the more I get traffic.
Skimming = more traffic
When I make money the sponsor makes money
Skimming = more money for sponsor

I can't understand the hard thing about this.

Let's start from the beginning of a new site, and say the owner has 0 traffic and doesn't know google.

How is he to promote a sponsor? Getting traffic? Great! Let's do that? How? Let's put a link to shemp.com, link-o-rama.com, worldsex.com and a few other places and see the traffic flow in? No? Why not? because you're not sending them anything.. uh oh.. where can you send when you have none?

Let's buy some!! okay. We buy 100k hits. We have a fucking great site with a toplist. We take 10k hits/day.. out of those 10k, 3k clicks to toplist and the sites on the other end send 4k back to us since our traffic was targeted (toplist, not blind). So, that 10k purchased traffic ends up being 14k right? Now this goes on for 10 days and our traffic is nice and growing. The feeding ends!! oh no.. say we have 20k hits/day out of which 10k click on toplist (very generous number). We get 12k back.. So our traffic drops, right?
This is what happens after the feeding ends:
day 1: 20k in -> 10k trades -> 40k galleries
day 2: 12k in -> 6k trades -> 24k galleries
day 3: 8k in -> 4k trades -> 16k galleries
day 4 : 6k in -> 3k trades -> 12k galleries
etc etc.. get the point?

NOW.. let's say that same site skims

we buy that 10k/day for 10 days
The first day we send out 15k hits to trades of the 10k we get in.. and so forth, traffic keeps growing = long term money

this is what happens when feeding ends (although the numbers would be bigger than 20k in the beginning.. just making this so it's comparable). Also as the traffic is skimmed it's lower prod on the other site, lesser returns.

day 1: 20k in -> 30k trades -> 30k galleries
day 2 : 25k in -> 33k trades -> 33k galleries
day 3: 27k in -> 35k trades -> 33k galleries


Can you NOW figure out why it'd make more money for the sponsor? ..or do I have to draw you a picture? You also need to stop thinking this TGP as a whole, but instead concentrate on ONE tgp.

I'm thru with this thread.. if you don't get it, you don't get it... but as a sponsor I have NO objections whatsoever on having our hosted galleries on a tgp that skims 90% 80% 10% as long as the thumbs go to our galleries or trades. it's free traffic. We're not paying the bandwidth on the thumb they have on their site

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extreme

In my theory there's X sales per day on the net. If a shitload of TGPs start sharing traffic between them and therefore pumping up their hits doesn't make that global sale# go up or down.

Meaning there's no black magic process where sponsors gains from TGPs using their content "illegally" to skim.

hits to galleries should be something likewise.

--------
siteA has 1000 hits. 50% skim.

500 => siteX
500 => galleries
Gets 500 back from siteX. 50% skim.

250 => siteX
250 => galleries
and repeat. in the end that "traffic session" it will be 1000 hits to the galleries right?
--------

--------
siteB has 1000 hits. 0% skim.
1000 => galleries.
same as first example.
--------

Why would the global amount of clicks to galleries be higher just because TGPs skim?

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Jakke PNG

Who gives a fuck about global numbers?
See my post above and try to understand it. Besides your numbers are off. 1000 non-skim and 1000 skim site are not comparable. as one is stable traffic, and one should be growing by the day.

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..and I'm off.

urb

Regardless of the debate for and against thumb preview TGP traffic trading methods... each to his own patch of thin ice.

The sponsor was upset about the use of a thumb being used to send traffic to a URL which attempted to install something Norton didn't like and he didn't appreciate the skimming for trades off his content.

The sponsor contacts the affiliate and the hosting company asking for the thumb to be removed.

In the normal scheme of things the host would have informed their client that there was a problem and not closed down the account without fair investigation.

But the host was actually a FREE HOST so they just switched the guy off.

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Will hand code html for food.

extreme

I've read it twice. All your numbers are somewhat confusing.

About global numbers, guess it's my way of attacking the subject mentaly.

If there is, like I think, a static number of ppl with CCs ready to buy porn (sales) per day (even though it get's divided into different sites/accounts) it's mathematicly impossible for everyone to gain extra $$$ from trading.

Someone has to loose sales for another to gain them.

siteA with 5 sales per day starts trading with siteB with 5 sales per day can Not magicly produce 20 sales per day just cause they switch/recycle traffic? And the same should go for a more complex trade setup.

You send traffic around and inflate certain hit logs everywhere but your example and the following conclusion (that skimming auto makes you more cash) feels impossible as a generic example (since someone has to loose for someone else to gain).

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Jakke PNG

there isn't a static number for one.
..and my numbers couldn't be clearer.

If you don't have a clue on how tgp's work nowdays, why do you argue?

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..and I'm off.

extreme

I do have a clue about tgps. And google. Trading is still somewhat vodoo for me. I argue cause I want to learn.

So you're saying that since sites skimm there's more sales on a whole then if they shouldn't?

tgp1: 5 sales/day
tgp2: 5 sales/day
tgp3: 5 sales/day

add trade:

tgp1: 10 sales/day
tgp2: 10 sales/day
tgp3: 10 sales/day

? (or other numbers but the point beeing that the total sales are higher after the trades started)

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enter »

You think the internet is static? There's x number of people with cc's on the web today and that's how many there will be next month and next year.

Your logic is severely flawed and I don't think you're gonna figure this out. It's been explained perfectly by tgf.

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Jakke PNG

No. Skimming has nothing to do with the amount of sales per day, but the amount of CC users are increasing byt the day. Therefore, traffic = money

You're missing the point all together.
Forget about tgp1 tgp2 tgp3
Just concentrate on your OWN tgp.. you don't have to care what others do.

Therefore, you have 50k/day skimmed traffic you make 5 sales/day.. now, wouldn't you rather grow that to 100k/day and make 10 sales per day?

If you have a 5k non-skimming site and make 5 sales per day, wouldn't you rather grow it to 10k/day for 10 sales?

Guess which is easier.

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