Donny

Hey guys... if religious debates are of interest to you the following email may interest you. I just sent it as a reply to my ex-sister-in-law that occasionally tries to send me messages about the Bible in an effort to save this poor lost porn-producing sinner.

It's VERY long and filled with Bible quotes and references to Biblical occurences. But if you EVER want to be able to debate a "christian", then you must be able to use examples from the Bible.

Be warned: this won't be of any interest to you unless you want to be able to bring up points with Bible Thumpers.

- Donny -



-----Original Message-----

From: DP Photography [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 5:30 PM

To: 'Laura'

Subject: RE: From Donny


Hello again Laura.


I don't know when I'm ever going to get it through my head that speaking with someone that's decided they believe the Bible is a frustrating experience and that a rational, scientific conversation is not possible. I mean no disrespect by that, but it's pretty true.


The typical thing for Bible believers to do is to start proving their points by quoting Bible scriptures. I'm sorry, but that is circular reasoning. That's sorta like me writing a book stating that I am God. And then when someone challenges my assertion that I am God, I take them to page such-and-such of the book I wrote and say, "See, there's your proof that I am God!".


Truth can be proven in many ways, yet the only way Bible believers have to prove the Bible is circumstances that could just as easily prove the Qur'an or several other alternate belief systems. Or by quoting scriptures from the Bible itself, which, again, is circular reasoning.


Speaking of the Qur'an: are you aware that Muslims, though they call him "Allah", serve the SAME God you do? Remember how Abraham had two sons, one legitimate and one illegitimate? I'm sure you know the illegitimate son is the ancestor of all Muslims. They descended from him. Therefore, they serve the God of Abraham. Christians also serve the God of Abraham. Same God. Yet there has been so much fighting between the two groups. Why? Because Christians believe THEY have "the only way" (whatever THAT is) and Muslims believe THEY have "the only way".


God is NOT a God of faith. And faith is the cornerstone of Christian belief. How can I say that God isn't a God of faith? By looking at his creation. All of existence is very Scientific. We can predict, quite accurately, the exact location of the earth in relationship to the sun 10 years from now. We have doctors and scientists that make incredible breakthroughs on a daily basis. We're learning SO much... yet NONE of it is based on faith. God is a God of FACTS and FIGURES. Men, not God, made up both religion in general, and the Bible in particular. For some men, it was a way to control people and instill fear. For others, they honestly believed what they'd written.

Donny

Nevertheless, the Bible was indeed written by men. It's very ironic that a Bible written by Jews happens to name Jews as "God's Chosen People". The Bible is filled with hate and stories so ridiculous that we must "accept them by faith". On top of oceans of water that part so Israelites can cross, fire coming down from heaven to consume sacrifices, an earth that was created in 7 days, and 2 loaves and 3 fishes miraculously feeding 5,000 people, we also have ridiculous SENSELESS killings. Things that sound more like the angry writings of poor-white-trash than something an all-knowing, merciful God would do. For instance:


NUMBERS 11:1 - "And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp"


- or -


HOSEA 13:16 - "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up"


(I thought God hated abortion... what happened in that last verse?)


- or -


1 SAMUEL 6:19 "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter"

That is 50,070 people killed because someone looked inside the Ark. That is the same as the entire population of Chico. Imagine that.


- or -


How about having one million people killed? Not only is that an ENORMOUS amount of people, but I wonder exactly how God killed so many all at once. Here's the scripture:


2 CHRONICLE 14:8-12 "And Asa had an army of men . . . And there came out against them Zera the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand . . . Asa cried unto the Lord his God, and said Lord, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power, help us, O Lord our God . . . So the Lord smote the Ethiopians"


And do you remember what you were told about rainbows? What exactly are rainbows? Refraction of light passing through water? Or a promise from God not to ever flood the earth again? Well, if you believe the Bible, it's the latter. How ignorant!


There are so many RIDICULOUS claims in that book. If GOD had inspired it, he would have known that someday we'd become more educated about the science behind how things work. Someday we wouldn't live our lives based on legends and fairy tales.


To me, I see the Bible as "Santa Claus" for adults. Many people can't handle many of life's truths. They would be shattered emotionally if, for instance, they had to face the fact that once we die.... we die. That's it. We're gone. There is NO afterlife. And no amount of group peer-pressure to believe ancient myths is going to change that fact.


But let's say there was an afterlife... good or bad. Does it make ANY sense to you that a God, a better father than any earthly man could ever possibly HOPE to be, would punish us FOREVER for screwing up during our EXTREMELY SHORT time here on earth? Our minds are mortal. We can't comprehend the idea of never-ending, everlasting life. But isn't it ridiculous to think ANY father would punish his children FOREVER when they screw up for a SHORT time? Should I spank my son daily if he talks back to his mother a few times? And keep spanking him for the rest of his life for that "sin"? "Well, I warned him!" just wouldn't be a good enough explanation to the courts that would take him away from me if I did that. And that example is not even as ridiculous as sending a person to ETERNAL damnation for a short life of sin, no matter HOW many times they were warned. Whatever happened to "forgiving 70 x 7 times in one day"? 490 sins a day is what Jesus commanded that we allow people. I guess it's different on matters relating to "eternal life", eh? For some reason, that makes me snicker.


If our children believed things that were as ridiculous as those that are described in the Bible, and they WEREN'T events described in the Bible, we'd eventually educate them and let them know that fairy tales aren't real, the tooth fairy doesn't exist, and Santa Claus doesn't bring presents to the good boys and girls of the world.


Why, then, do adults believe the fairy tales in the Bible? It was written by angry, mostly uneducated Jewish men that want everyone to believe what THEY believe.


You wrote:


"God's way is the ONLY way that works. Your spirit knows it Donny, and you will NEVER have peace until you recognize this as truth."


My response is:


"Absolutely incorrect. My 'spirit' knows nothing of the sort. I simply can't stand the fact that so many thinking adults still believe in fairy tales. Just as I'm sure it irritates you to hear an un-educated person talking about ridiculous beliefs in astrology, talking adamantly about Hinduism or Buddhism, or professing absolute belief in some weird voodoo type crap. And I particularly get bothered that such beliefs are being taught to my son. And I'm even MORE bothered that I can't tell him the truth because it would immediately put him at odds with Wendy's side of his family, pull him in two different directions and confuse the hell out of him."


Laura... some day you MAY face the fact that the Bible has NOTHING to do with God. Although it talks a lot ABOUT God it has NOTHING to do with him. It is indeed a load of crap. It is a book filled with hatred. Yes, it has some great stories of love when it comes to the story of Jesus, but it is overwhelmingly filled with hatred. If you mess up, you're killed or eternally punished. If you're rebellious, God rips your unborn children from your womb. Many people try to explain away a lot of that hatred (not all of it) by saying that the New Testament in some way "does away" with many parts of the Old Testament. That, too, is a load of crap. It's a nice cop-out and is, in fact, an attempt to try to explain away some of the Bible's inconsistencies. And such ridiculous explanations are only accepted by people who blindly accept anything they're told, as long as it has to do with the Bible.


I believe people need religion to be able to psychologically deal with life's problems. So many of life's issues get people down, so humans made up many different forms of spiritual belief. Don't you think that God is powerful enough that if he wanted an organized religion he would have revealed the same thing to EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE? The Bible was all written in a pretty centralized area in the middle east. There aren't books written by men in what we know as Russia, what we know as Africa, what we know as Australia, or North or South America. Nope. All those regions of the earth have their OWN form of religion. But Bible believers, for some reason, think the "truth" revealed in the middle east is the ONLY way. I'm sorry but they are WRONG. There IS no "one true way". There is no place to go to when we die. And there is no "way" to go ANYWHERE.


Let me tell you, when you die, you're dead. There is no eternal life. You won't see your Grandmothers again. You won't see anyone that has died again. If my son dies before me I won't see him again. The thought of that is so mind blowing and painful that it's no wonder people make up religions to cope with death and other such issues.


Delude yourself if you'd like. I guess it doesn't hurt you. But it sure has hurt others (how many wars were started over religious disputes... in fact, Sept 11th happened simply because of one group's religious beliefs). I greatly dislike all forms of religion and pity those enslaved to ANY religion, including Christianity.


- Donny -

Donny

enter »

I didn't read all of that but I probably agree with most of it.

Here's my definition of religion...

__________________
«-- offer extended through New Years (icq286487452)

PenisFace

Donny, you are officially the new GFY hero.

Donny

Donny

PenisFace

Until I have a near death experience, or until science can prove there is a god and there is an afterlife, I'm sticking to my belief that the bible was written by people who thought the earth was flat, which pretty much takes away any credibility they had to begin with. The plague? Hell, if you cant explain something, it must be god punishing us! Or a disease carried by flea's that live on rats.

Donny

DTK

I was expecting a window/unix debate....carry on

__________________
Arguing whether the Democratic or Republican party is better is like debating which steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky.

crockett

yea those are pretty much my exact thoughts on religion. IMO religion was and is nothing more than a tool to control people.

__________________
In November, you can vote for America's next president or its first dictator.

junction

This is the first time I have ever read a post that long on GFY.....Im glad I did. Great letter. Its too bad your sis in law wont get it.

boobmaster

Donny

I know. I hate how closed minded religious people can be. I'm sure she'll shrug this off as "coming directly from the devil in order to deceive" me.

hershie

Sorry but I can't stand to listen to anything you have to say about religion and social issues any longer after the way you reacted to me last month and more so your position on the subject of jews and money.

Donny

Please elaborate on what you are referring to... I apologize but I do not remember you.

boobmaster

Very well thought out letter, Donny. Unfortunately, it doesn't make for a good ARGUMENT. Not everyone interprets the bible literally. Moreover, whether you accept the bible or not says nothing about the question of the existence of a higher power.

Donny

Exactly. I wasn't about to debate her on the existence of a higher power... I want to start with whether or not the Bible is "God's Word".

I fucking hate that phrase ("God's Word").

Explicit

Tom_PMs

It's a discussion of Organized Religion. Not really "religion", isnt it?

Religion in and of itself, is a personal thing.

It's the organizations themselves that cause trouble; quoting phrases meant to get the tithings and the further patronage..

In other words, she seems (wild guess) to be wanting you to join an organization which she belongs to.

Some people just can't take "no" for an answer

__________________

You've read it, you can't unread it.

Dirty Dane

if everyone were atheist, we would have no holy wars...

SureFire

I guess you are saying you are an atheist. I believe in God and hate uniform religion so what does that make me.

Yes, I believe there is an after life and why live in this shitty world where there is so much hate. Why have children? My mom has been a bible lover for years and she would tell me that I was going to hell. For a while just to get her mad, I said hell seems like a much nicer place.

Well, she is facing death and rather than throwing out a scripture to make me go to church, we talk about if we will see to each other ever again. I make jokes that with her that we will in one place or another; since she sinned for pushing religion and me for not believing in uniform religion.

Hey, who knows but I rather have faith than to equate my life with a chair (a being-within-itself).