you get 3 days but you need to cancel 24 hours before the end of the 3 day trial...

Imagine if amazon paid its affiliates $35 for a $5 book sale.

Its all about how YOU want to make money if you want to get paid $35 a trial then dont complain when sponsors have to upsell and xsell to make it all profitable.
If you guys do not like it then send your traffic to a revshare program with no exit and no xsells and get your 50%.

People bitch about xsells and exit traffic but still want the highest payouts possible. Maybe adult players club could come out with a no xsell no exit no upsell site and payout $20 or so a join but how many people would promote that over the $35 program. I would be very interested to see .

Nasty D is all good but they got 2 prechecked boxes , 1 for spam and 1 for bangbus 3 day trial . Not very clean IMO.

Good observations.....possibly you can check out www.AdultLounge.com and let me know if we ( mistakingly ) have anything even close to erros i shall say rather than "tricks" which we will not tolerate.

And we pay $35 per sale BUT $10 on trial ( we loose $5 ) and $25 more if the trial converts ( and our average monthly is $29 ) so we break even...giving you the $35.

Let me know i would appreciate the obsvervation and input..

thanks

What I find hilarious is that so many people still think that sponsors can't pay $35 per sale without all the shady shit. Of course they make more with the shady shit but getting rid of it wouldn't put them in the poorhouse.

What does everyone think, that they pay the webmaster $35 and they only keep a buck or two? Please, if that were the case the big promotors would clear more than the site owners and there would be no need to start your own sites as you could make more promoting someone elses.

It's smoke and mirrors to the webmasters just like it's smoke and mirrors to the customers. Open your eyes people.

So you mean my billing descriptor will soon look like this:

OX *Jetchrg.com (company name before processor)

Interesting???? Ox is so straight up it appears to me (via the billing descriptor) they are having cb issues (maybe due to the x-sales nasty sends that account to bangbus?). Once again these is just my opinion from what I am seeing on their join form. Let me know if I am mistaken.

Sounds GREAT. $10 per signup. Where do I signup??? hahah

Nothing personal but $10 per trial join is NOT something I as a webmaster would promote IMO.

Did you miss the $25 more if the trial converts?

Funny how 80% of the bashers on here are people who LOVE recurring...

PLEASE PLEASE show screencaps of ANY recurring program making you more than $35 per signup...Just show PROOF of how great recurring is. This was challenged on another board and not ONE person posted any screencaps.

I got traffic for days, and I sent to a few recurring prgrams (some of the big names) ..average per signup $19...and conversion ratios were terrible. Just a waste of traffic sent.

Nope I saw it..Did you forget retention these days is 20-30%...So you get that extra $25 on say to be conservative 25 of the 100 joins you send...Quick math check

100 joins sent - $10 each - total $1K
25 recur - $25 each - total $625

You just made $1625

Sent to any normal $35 per trial program (not just us)
100 trial signups - $35 each - $3500

$3500 or $1625??? What # you want?

edited: spelling fix

Very good point...If we had that option I GUARANTEE you less than 10% of the webmasters would promote that method.

Thanks for the elementary explanation but my math skills are just fine. At least 5th grade level I would say. I asked if you read that part based on your response. You made it sound like it was $10 flat.

I did read it but the $25 on the recur still dont make up for the LOW $10 on trial signups. They are basically taking ZERO RISK.

If you want to open a webmaster program with small risk, just open a recurring program. Anybody can open one of those.

hey raffi
https://wnu.com/jsp/jsp/common/terms...e=tbyr862 t7b

Trial Subscriptions: If you purchase a trial subscription, you hereby agree that the Paycom may immediately authorize your credit card (or other approved facility) in the amount equal to the then-current monthly rate. The Company and/or Paycom will only charge that amount to your credit card (or other approved facility) if you elect not to terminate your trial subscription prior to becoming a regular subscriber. If you purchase a trial subscription, and decide to terminate your trial subscription, you must do so AT LEAST one (1) day prior to the end of the Trial Period and you will not be charged any further. If you do not cancel at least one (1) day prior to the end of the Trial Period, you are agreeing to continue as a regular subscriber upon the terms and conditions for regular subscriptions set forth herein, and you authorize the Company to charge your credit card (or other approved facility) at the then-current monthly rate on a monthly basis until you request termination of your subscription according to the terms hereof. If you have a question about a transaction on your credit card statement, or wish to cancel a trial subscription, please click here to contact Customer Service.

Its obvious to me this guy just wanted to find SOMETHING wrong with the program. I appreciate him bringing this to my attention and I will get it fixed in our TOS.

Does he really think if somebody didnt email me 2 hours before his trial recurred to cancel I would not cancel him?? Give me a break. The only reason MOST programs have it in there is to stop surfers from hitting you up the day of the rebill in the afternoon and wanting to cancel while the rebill has already happened in the morning. So by saying 1 day it makes them know to be safe to cancel the day before it ends.

I will clean up the wording in our TOS tomorrow at the office.

I was going to chime in.. but SAK is doing just fine... ...:thumbsup


FYI... higher credits can come from aggressive billing.. the majority of high chargebacks come from bad resellsers.... manage the webmasters sending you traffic.. and cbs are really not a problem...

Well, we pay $35 on converts instead of on trials...if you visit any of our sites you will not find pop ups, upsales, cross sales, consoles, etc...thats why we pay on converts. Maybe in the future we will but we are trying to provide quality service to our surfers.

Also, just so that you know MOST of our affiliate partners are smart enough to go with our rev. share option for life of a member.

Why would you just want $35 even on trials if you can make at least 50% ( $15 if $30 monthly ) for life of a member. Our average retention is about 3 months now... so $15 x 3 = $45 which is higher by the way :winkwink: than $35...

Some very interesting (and intelligent) responses to the thread. But, to be honest, I didn't initially think the information I was sharing was all that ground-breaking.

But to my surprise, this thread revealed that a large number of webmasters DIDN'T know that these scam tactics are being used by many of the PPS programs.

When the very webmasters who make their livings from this industry don't know how the sign-up process works, is it any surprise that the consumer is taken somewhat by surprise.

As a side note to the sad state of the industry - When Playboy signed an agreement with Adult.com to promote their sites online, I sent a letter off to Playboy's editor. Here was a company (Plyaboy) that had managed to survive censorship, persecution and more obstacles then most any other company could weather...and they came out on top.
How did they do it?..by offering a superior product which dealt with sensitive issues..and to do it with dignity and class.
So, when I saw their sites under the adult.com flagship, with the same cross-sells and hidden "trial membership" shell games...this was a sad day indeed... And signaled the end of a proud business era for the Playboy brand.

If this is the case then every join is worth $90 to you. Thus paying out $50 up front should be NO PROBLEM and you would take over the adult net and still make $40 per join profit. Yes?

i doubt anyone will take you up on the offer to show proof because good recurring programs are 1) hard to find.. and 2) the good ones are cash cows. the recurring programs where retention is longer than 2 months will easily make you more than $35 per signup!

:2 cents:

These days? 8 years ago retention was just as bad for programs that didn't deliver. The average surfer isn't any more stupid than the average webmaster: if a site doesn't have what it promised, they cancel. It's not rocket science.

And if you base partnership income on sites geared to the PPS model, of course it is going to look ridiculous. But how come all the PPS fans conveniently forget sponsors like Karups PC, Scoreland and others that for years have been keeping their members even longer than most AVS programs?

When Visa first came down on us, everyone knew exactly why. Did we learn anything? A few of the worst practises may have softened some, but the main reaction seems to have been to start up $1 and $10 programs, to try to stay inside the CB limits. Oh and the rate at which some sponsors roll out new versions of their programs seems to have speeded up.

Really how smart is it to be all but begging Visa to tighten up even more? Or to be acting as if this is 1998 and most of our potential customers are still newbies? Why is it so hard to recognize that if online porn generates the money it does despite the BS we dish out, it would be worth far more without it.

We don't need to trick people into buying porn: they want to! Bandwidth is cheap. Content is cheap. Why is it apparently so bloody difficult just to play straight...

While I respect your opinion, you must remember we are in a sales busines.

Agressive billing happens in ALL industries at different levels just not the adult industry. 1 quick example.

LA Fitness - Join as a monthly member there. Pay a $200 up front fee, and $39.95 a month. Go try to cancel. They will NOT cancel you at the gym. They give you a FORM tofill out and MAIL to them as a hardcopy. In no way will they make it easy and allow you just to cancel face to face.. AND on the form they give you to fill out, it says they cancel you 60 DAYS from receiving it. So you get billed for 1-2 more months after trying to cancel.

I agree pre check x-sales are agressive BUT the terms are clearly laid out on the trial membership length and amount as well as the recurring amount. It is NOT hidden in a TOS or some small print in a contract somewhere, but right above the Join button and easy to read.

you would have to pay me 100 per sale which is impossible so I will glady stay with recurring. 15 bucks per month and look at some of these customers for 1 shemale site.


http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill1.gif

http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill2.gif

http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill3.gif

:glugglug

sadly it's because these are the same webmasters that believe there is too much free porn and that surfers don't want to pull out their wallets and pay for porn. when paysite owners realize that CONTENT QUALITY is king and surfers actually want to stay in their site, maybe they won't feel the need to trick surfers into signing up with all the gimmicks. sites like ND with tons of quality content updated weekly, i'm sure easily has 50%+ retention.

S.A.K...And what happens if the surfer doesn't email you..(we both know that the chance of this happening are very slim indeed). They will in most likelyhood simply go to Paycom, try and cancel, and if its gone past the "one day before end of trial" timepoint...they get charged for the rebill. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Plus, how does the 1 day trial cross-sell work? If I take membership out at 8:00 p.m., does it rebill at midnight. And if at midnight, is it midnight in my time-zone or yours. And if yours, strange thing is I looked and looked and can't find anything on the sign-up form that would tell me exactly what time-zone you may be in. So, my midnight might be your 3:00 a.m. And guess what, I just got "rebilled"

Or am I just terribly mistaken, and a 3 day trial gives a full 72 hours and a one day trial gives 24 hours.

And, I should clear up that I was not specifically looking for anything wrong with your program. As you can see from my history on GFY, I treat ALL programs which I believe mislead the consumer equally.

P.S. Comparing sales tactics with a fitness club doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. I don't know about where you live...but around here, fitness clubs aren't generally up for "Business of the Year". What's next..."proudly managed using the ENRON principles of better business".

It isn't.. There's a whole bunch of people making a quick buck, some making a lot of them. Those that build their fires only out of kindling won't burn for very long. Survival of the fittest! Let's all make a mental note to see who's still around in 12... 24... 36 months. Don't think that the FTC won't eventually have their day with many of these people. Perhaps some of these people would be better suited putting some money in a legal defense fund instead of into those new spinners on their car. LOL

:winkwink:

Cheers,

Brad

bahahaha...

just 3 yrs ago.. retention was over 40%.. before that even higher... surfers are getting smarter.... why stick around when they can "try out a new site" tommorow... it has nothing to do with the membres section.. it has to do with the quality of traffic.... those old sites you mentioned.. still do great... but partly b/c they have old members from the beginning... and i'm sure they too have seen a decline in the average retaining member...

again.... this has nothing to do with chargebacks... I know you like to think it does but it does not... chargebacks and credits are two different things.

lastly... Raffi... why not pay out $65+ per join??? that model is not new... but those who tried it out in the past offered $60+ per join... but they too found out that... people don't like to send traffic to an unknown payout.. vs a guaranteed one...
:2 cents:

S.A.K..I have posted a number of questions for you. Please take the time and issue a rebuttal. I will more then happily eat humble pie if I have misinterpreted your sales tactics. (I am assuming that you are an "official" spokesperson for AdultPlayerClub...correct?).

why don't you go check the ND join page form... then come back when you konw what you are talking about ;)

I just used LA Fitness as one example. It happens in many other industries, not just adult was my point. I can name example after example.

Just looked into the rebill times. Here is a sample transaction on a 3 day trial I found:
2004-07-15 06:38 PM - time joined
2004-07-18 08:39 PM - time rebilled

Looks roughly to be 74 hours on this one I saw and 73 hours on another. So pretty consistent.

Yep that would be me. I have responded to your last question about how rebills work. I will see if I missed any other questions.

Not being one to take anyone's word simply at face value, I will put your program to the same test I have put other programs to.

I will join one of your sites tonight...

I will put in a cancellation for the cross-sell in 22 hours. I will put in a cancellation for the 3 day trial in 70 hours. (Giving Paycom an extra 2 hours to process the cancellations).

Then, we will see if my cancellations are accepted. If what you claim is true---I post a rebuttal on the board---and you get more free advertising.

If I find that my trials do in fact rebill, well then first I chargeback - then I post my Paycom transaction records - and you still get free advertising - and chances are you will still shine --- after all, there is no such thing as bad publicity...correct?

And you did miss a question above..when does a "1 day trial" expire?

Now will you judge rebilling by the charge being posted or statemented on your card? Or will you judge it by the charge simply being authorized on your card?

I will judging by the amount appearing on my online Credit Card Statement. Preauthorized amounts do not show up on the statement..only those charges that have been processed and are now owing.

I do find it interesting that S.A.K did try and clear up the 3 day trial with "2" examples. I would think with a popular program like this, if what he stated is in fact company policy, then there should already be 1000's of examples.

Plus, not quite sure how the questions about the 24 hour cross-sells rebilling policy was missed. Perhaps he is looking for 1 or 2 examples of this as well.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it...(and unfortunately either are the consumers...Opps...correction..they are buying it...they just don't know it yet).

And that makes it 'right'? Being in a sales business means you can mislead your customers?

If the non content people in this business had things written in our t&c like this that effected the happyness of the consumers you were sending and you had to deal with all the mail/calls or you yourself had issues with our products and services you would be crying for the heads of every novelty seller out there. If one single company did it you would nail that guy to the wall, if all of us did it then you would simply not deal with us. Just cuz everyone does it does not mean it is right, and just because it seems everyone is doing it, trust me everyone is not. For all you know the honest people are making the most and telling you to do it that way so that you shoot yourself in the foot..... Seen it in real business do not know about here, but people seem to be people when it comes to things like that.

People always think of business and business people, ESPECIALLY corporations as these huge monsters because of little crap like this. PR is VERY important in business, but business ethics are not something that are learned on the internet as most non brick and mortor business people I have met so far have a VERY bad understanding of how business should be done. This is because the internet allows people to hide, it is VERY easy to pull this type of thing when you never have to worry about the consumer destroying your business or being in your face. Sure you last longer than real world businesses doing this type of stuff, but as I had to tell a guy who makes money selling online before, how long do you really think that you will make money like that? There is no honor amongst theives and there is very little loyalty between seller and sold to on the net because it is faceless qualities. But since you can throw these up all day for damn near nothing when compared to real world business who cares right? THE CONUSMER and one day they will be backed by someone, already I see millions of dollars being spent to fight off the FCC about the claims of a lot of oral suppliments, same type of moral decision, fancy wording and empty claims and promises, they got theirs, why do you think it will not happen to you?

I admit I didn't base my response on the percentages but because I see people talking about less than 2 months for the average membership today: the same average being bandied around on YNot back in '97 or '98.

But if the rush to cancel isn't related to the member section, what has kept members faithful to the sites which do provide solid member sections? You are also stretching credibility claiming that renewal ratios on the solid sites are due to their initial membership. You don't seriously believe that post 2000 or whenever, surfers suddenly lost interest in fresh, quality content but all the earlier ones still don't know other sites exist?

I don't pretend there aren't people jumping from site to site, especially between those offering free or discounted trials. But as an excuse for the big picture it doesn't work. It takes a special kind of loony to be constantly signing up for trials, noting all the cross-sells and TOS so he can get his cancellations in. How many times would you go through all that?

And if you are right about trials killing the market, the solution is fairly obvious...

diz

you run your program I assume..do you not crossell or upsell at all?

This guy s.a.k. should be put in the gas chamber!

especially for only having 1 cross sale!

hawgs have always used this model, and sites are worth 40 a month

Hey ..
No I dont have any cross sales/upsells so far and we work on revshare model without trials and I do get exellent results and this is how I sell porn for 4 years ...

I was pissed on APC first when I checked their websites trailer pages and got lost in "84 clicks on No or Cancel" dialer ..
Do you think your consumers are that stupid and after clicking on NO button lets say 20 times they still keep asking themselves if they gonna use the dialer or no? huh
Or its just made for clicking on Yes button by mistake ?
Would you send your traffic there?

I have my own opinion in this matter and its not just APC of course...

Give me a break ... We offer 100% every 10 days during the summer on signups and rebills which already makes it more then 35 usd .. This is the way I fight with 35 per signup programs ..
At least I am trying to make it in the cleanest way and we still do enought money ...
Regarding ratios .. more then 50% of our partners have ratios like 1:200 to 1:500 from our hosted galleries and 1:100 to 1:200 from the banners ..

I have 2 huge TGPs sending blind thumb traffic and it converts 1:2500 ...

Nothing wrong with revshare ratios

S.A.K. - Now that you have had the night to do some research..I'm still very interested in when the 1 day trial converts to a rebilling $39 membership. And, have you managed to find more then a couple of examples of when the 3 day trial rebills.

Looking forward to your reply.

I did look at some more and it is consistently 1-2 hours after the trial period is over is when the rebill happens. The 1 day free trial we are x-selling is to another company so I do not have access to that data on EXACT time the rebill happens. But it is billed through the same processor so I have no reason it would be any different. I would assume the rebill for 1 day trials would happen 24-26 hours after initial signup.

Adult PlayersCulb has been receiving traffic for over 5 MONTHS now in beta testing with solid traffic from many webmasters and last month we had exactly 1 Visa Chargeback.

As always, I am amazed how companies in this industry can partner up with other firms, without a clue as to how their partners operate. I, for one would insure that the my partner delivers the same level of service that I demand from my own company.

As noted, I will be testing your sites....both yours and your "partner's". And I will post results on the board. And, if the results differ from what has been stated here, I will charge back. But, if what you claim is true, then we both win.

Of course, there have been some indications in other posts above that you also pop-up an aggressive dialer for foreign clients. If your "cancellation" practices stated above are in fact accurate, I still do not subscribe to the "2 goods cancels one evil" theory.

AdultPlayersClub has solid people behind it. BossHawg have been running programs for as long as I can remember. In an affiliate program it is very important to have solid people behind it, and adult players club has that.

AdultPlayersClub is an A+ operatioin. nuff said

Yes, the Hawgs do operate a solid "webmaster" program. But this thread was never about the webmaster. This is about the fair treatment of the consumer.

nuff said...

Interesting no webmaster here said they'd happily promote a $20 PPS program *without* all the evil stuff.

Ah fuck that, why not just get $5k checks every 2 weeks for doing nothing, that'd be the ideal sponsor!