6 million people will lose overtime pay thanks to Bush - GoFuckYourself.com

SuckOnThis · 07-14-2004, 10:39 AM

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/14/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study.

The Bush Administration issued proposed changes to overtime rules last year, but then revised them in March after criticism from some labor groups.

The original proposal would have stripped overtime protection for 8 million workers, according to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which studies issues affecting middle- and lower-income workers and receives funding from some labor groups.

But the revisions would still strip OT pay for about 6 million workers, EPI said in a study released Tuesday.

Under current rules, three tests determine whether a worker is eligible for overtime pay.

The revised rules announced in March "would dramatically increase the number of workers who would be classified as 'professional,' 'administrative,' or 'executive' and thus remove millions of additional workers from overtime coverage," the EPI said.

For instance, the group contends that employees who merely recommend, but not carry out, the changes for two employees they supervise will be classified as executives and become exempt from overtime pay.

The Labor Department and supporters of the changes contend the revised regulations will update old rules, cover more workers and reduce the amount of class-action lawsuits.

"These latest 'studies' are a rehash of misinformation the AFL-CIO and its allies put out about the department's final Overtime Security Rule in April -- assertions that were completely discredited in congressional hearings," Labor Department spokesman Ed Frank said in a statement.

Lycanthrope · 07-14-2004, 11:00 AM

So what, salaried employees, and this is whom it will affect, should NOT get overtime...

dig420 · 07-14-2004, 11:45 AM

Don't be fucking stupid. Every janitor will be a salaried 'maintenance manager' working 65 hr weeks for less than minimum wage, the restaurant industry already does this. Have you ever read a book on the labor movement? Here's one to get you started:

The Jungle

If the repubs wanted to allow child labor again there is a significant % of this country that would think it's a good idea. It's just too fucking bad I have to share my oxygen with them. Every advance we've made in human rights and the rights of the working man, fucking cool-ass conservatives want to throw it all away the first time some cocksucker in a cowboy hat tells them it's bad for the economy. I hate you all.

Pleasurepays · 07-14-2004, 11:47 AM

thanks to Bush, i employ 15 full time employees from another country for the cost of 1 US employee doing 1/15 or less of the work.

The Truth Hurts · 07-14-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dig420
I hate you all.

you're a bitter little man.

brand0n · 07-14-2004, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
thanks to Bush, i employ 15 full time employees from another country for the cost of 1 US employee doing 1/15 or less of the work.

pornstar2pac finally got a job

loverboy · 07-14-2004, 11:53 AM

woj · 07-14-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuckOnThis
http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/14/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study.

The Bush Administration issued proposed changes to overtime rules last year, but then revised them in March after criticism from some labor groups.

The original proposal would have stripped overtime protection for 8 million workers, according to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which studies issues affecting middle- and lower-income workers and receives funding from some labor groups.

But the revisions would still strip OT pay for about 6 million workers, EPI said in a study released Tuesday.

Under current rules, three tests determine whether a worker is eligible for overtime pay.

The revised rules announced in March "would dramatically increase the number of workers who would be classified as 'professional,' 'administrative,' or 'executive' and thus remove millions of additional workers from overtime coverage," the EPI said.

For instance, the group contends that employees who merely recommend, but not carry out, the changes for two employees they supervise will be classified as executives and become exempt from overtime pay.

The Labor Department and supporters of the changes contend the revised regulations will update old rules, cover more workers and reduce the amount of class-action lawsuits.

"These latest 'studies' are a rehash of misinformation the AFL-CIO and its allies put out about the department's final Overtime Security Rule in April -- assertions that were completely discredited in congressional hearings," Labor Department spokesman Ed Frank said in a statement.

nice misleading title:
"will STILL FAIL to protect overtime pay for six million workers"
"6 million people WILL LOSE overtime pay thanks to Bush"

SuckOnThis · 07-14-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woj
nice misleading title:
"will STILL FAIL to protect overtime pay for six million workers"
"6 million people WILL LOSE overtime pay thanks to Bush"

Not misleading at all, read the article. It was going to be originally 8 million people but the proposal was revised, now it will be 6 million. So whats misleading there?

woj · 07-14-2004, 12:11 PM

Based on the first sentence of the article:
"Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study."

it apears that 6 million workers are currently not getting overtime pay...

but your title suggests that 6 million people have it now, but will lose it thanks to bush...

That's the way I took it, I could be wrong though... :-/

mardigras · 07-14-2004, 12:14 PM

Hey, for every professional job that gets sent overseas we get at least 10 positions back at Walmart

genomega · 07-14-2004, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuckOnThis
Not misleading at all, read the article. It was going to be originally 8 million people but the proposal was revised, now it will be 6 million. So whats misleading there?

The rest of the story. About 12 million will gain overtime. The vast majority of workers that will lose are government workers that are useless and overpaid.

Tala · 07-14-2004, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by loverboy

God I love seeing my work used.

Peaches · 07-14-2004, 12:24 PM

Looks like some people forgot their civics classes. Someone tap me on the back the next time the president of the US is able to make laws on his own.

Heck, let me know when the republicans can do it too

And Dig, I read The Jungle for the 1st time since HS last summer and it didn't change my mind about being a capitalist. I STILL think unions are a waste, they have too much power and they aren't any different than the corporations they dislike where the top guys are making all the $$$ off the ones at the bottom

SuckOnThis · 07-14-2004, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by genomega
The rest of the story. About 12 million will gain overtime. The vast majority of workers that will lose are government workers that are useless and overpaid.

Where the fuck does it say 12 million will gain overtime?????

The Truth Hurts · 07-14-2004, 12:31 PM

Unions are not a waste, to even suggest that is fucking ignorant.

SuckOnThis · 07-14-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woj
Based on the first sentence of the article:
"Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study."

it apears that 6 million workers are currently not getting overtime pay...

but your title suggests that 6 million people have it now, but will lose it thanks to bush...

That's the way I took it, I could be wrong though... :-/

No, that is incorrect. Here's the way it is.....the Bush admin put out a proposal that would reclassify who currently is elegible for overtime based on if they were considered professional, administrative, or executive. The original proposal was estimated that 8 million people would then not be qualified for overtime. They knew this wouldnt pass so they revised the proposal a little, and now the current proposal is estimated that 6 million would not qualify for overtime.

gregtx · 07-14-2004, 12:47 PM

thanks Peaches..

Labor unions are the reason jobs are sent overseas in the first place... 70% of the cost to now build a US vehicle goes to pay the wages and benefits of the unionized labor... what good did those labor unions do? they raised the cost of living in those towns that survive on union labor.

the majority of these people not protected will be those who are already working OT administration, professional, and executive possitions... or yes, salaried people. who normally get commisions, bonuses, or other monetary rewards....

anyone ever realize what benefits costs companies each year???
hell IMHO they should only get benefits if they do work OT! ;)

woj · 07-14-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuckOnThis
No, that is incorrect. Here's the way it is.....the Bush admin put out a proposal that would reclassify who currently is elegible for overtime based on if they were considered professional, administrative, or executive. The original proposal was estimated that 8 million people would then not be qualified for overtime. They knew this wouldnt pass so they revised the proposal a little, and now the current proposal is estimated that 6 million would not qualify for overtime.

True, but still you used "will lose" when in fact it's only a "could lose" situation... and bush is only partially responsible for this (if at all) while your title clearly directly blames him...

gregtx · 07-14-2004, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Truth Hurts
Unions are not a waste, to even suggest that is fucking ignorant.

the way that unions are ran today are a waste...

they drive up and drive away more jobs than they help or create...

why do you think GM and Ford are building thier vehicles in Canada and Mexico... cheaper labor.. and less benefits...

which in return is good for their stock price... surely all of you mighty stock market "playas" want your portfolios to rise?

Pleasurepays · 07-14-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gregtx
the way that unions are ran today are a waste...

they drive up and drive away more jobs than they help or create...

why do you think GM and Ford are building thier vehicles in Canada and Mexico... cheaper labor.. and less benefits...

which in return is good for their stock price... surely all of you mighty stock market "playas" want your portfolios to rise?

Exactly.

Unions today cause more jobs to be lost and do more harm than good. My whole family is in unions. Just a bunch of inbred idiots, always out of work and when they do have work, all they can think about is how to get away with doing as little as possible for the most benefit/$ and they joke about it all day long while waiting for some idiot apprentice to come change a light bulb so they can do their job because its not in their contract to change light bulbs, nor is it in the electritions contract to change light bulbs.

Unions do little more than spend their time preying on inbred morons for support... while promising a lot, taking a chunk of their money, demonizing the people that actually create the jobs and do it all while providing very little if anything in return other than empty and unfulfilled promises of great things to come.

bopha · 07-14-2004, 04:02 PM

Can you really take any numbers that W puts out there as accurate? He's missed the mark every single time he spews out a number. How bout those health care numbers....

It's a bad thing and many people who depend on overtime are not voting for him because of this. He's not for the working class that's for sure.

BTW... in our city, Union men make the beer you're probably enjoying right now. If you think this doesn't effect the men who've worked at places like AB their whole life.. wake up.
They aren't 'doing away' with unions or even propsing that.. they just want to 'reorganize' so companies can make a higher profit at the expense of the worker. AT AB, you have to work a certain amount of OT. You HAVE to, especially at Xmas. That won't change just because you dont' have to be paid for it. It's going to hurt families if this goes into effect.

Not all Union men are "inbreds". That's a very shortsided statement. The hotel industry is union, there's the resturant workers union.. It's not just dumb dockworkers this will effect.

Real people with real families, kids in college, mortages, lives are who will be ef fected. Whether or not any one agree with unions, is irrelevent to this proposal.

jayeff · 07-14-2004, 04:11 PM

I guess the GOP taps into enough other prejudices that the lower ranks of the middle class (workers in other words) have to ignore legislation like this. Yet in areas such as where I live, these are the people who are the mainstay of the Republican party.

At the very least it is ironic that workers vote for a party which sets out to fill shareholders pockets at their own expense.

Pleasurepays · 07-14-2004, 04:32 PM

Bopha, you are right that it might not be fair to characterize all union members as such. i was just speaking from my own experience. my whole life has been a very different story growing up in that environment with family and family friends that are all welders and pipefitters, electritions and so on. Some unions are definately a little more benign than others.

One thing I noticed growing up was that they are extremely corrupt to begin with. they give all the best jobs to their friends and there was a lot of politics just to get work. by best jobs ... i mean 6 figure jobs that have 100's or 1000's of people in line for - say for example jobs in alaska in remote areas (North Slope, Dutch Harbor etc)

Unions and uninion members demand loyalty even when there is no work. If you do work outside the union... even to survive, you are hated and ostracized. My uncle bought property, built a new house (his dream house) etc and then got laid off from his job. Thats not a big deal... but the ignorant ass had to be "loyal to his brothers" so he chose to listen to their promises of getting him back to work, rather than going and finding a job outside the union to provide for his family and save his home. Ultimately, he lost everything. That is a very common story. Very common in industries where jobs/projects are bid and the work is temporary.. say a 1 yr project and they are all relying on the union to line up more contracts after so they continue to be employed.

more than anything, they can't wait to figure out how to do less work for more money. How do you run a business effectively when you have a work force that is constantly testing new ideas to be less effective and less productive. with some industries, that is a little more difficult to achieve like a restaurant. But what about a job where everyone on the job is Union? Labor, Electritions, Plumbers, Welders, Carpenters, Painters etc etc etc. It is a clusterfuck. Always.

Not only that but Union labor is almost ALWAYS more expensive and almost NEVER better.

Here is a good example of the union mindset that i personally witnessed (as well as countless similar situations like it)

We have a big ship in a shipyard in Seattle. We have serious deadlines to get the work done. lost days to delays means 100's of thousands in lost revenue.

So... a welder needs to weld something. Its on his little work order for the day. He slowly works his way to the area. slowly dicks aroung setting his stuff up. Then... announces that he cannot do anything because there are tools in the way (tools from another worker in the yard). So, i go to move the tools... He freaks out! "don't touch any of the shipyards equipment or tools etc etc etc... its in the rules" This guy is getting big bucks to stand there. So i ask him who has to move the tools. He tells me who is responsible for the tools. I find that guy. He tells me it's not his job to move the tools. It was either the job of the laboror or the apprentice (i forgot which). Welder is still standing there. Anyway... it took me about 2 hrs to find the right guy to go move the tools.

.. so he can start right and do his 5 minutes of welding? Nope. A light is out. it was not dark out and the light was not effective.. but according to union safety regulations, the light had to be fixed before any work could be done... even though we were standing in broad daylight at about 1 in the afternoon on a sunny day. So... I can't change the light. I have to go find an electrition to change the light. After finally finding an electrition to change the bulb.. he lets me know its not his job and i have to find his helper. Where is he? no one knows.

We went around in circles for most of the day trying to get one guy who was costing us close to $100.00 an hour to just stand there so he could do 5 mins worth of work... and he was very proud of himself and thought it was very funny that he had such an easy job.

Thats a normal story that I have witnessed in my life. Very typical of what Unions represent.

I have a friend who is having a $50,000,000 a year seafood business destroyed by uneducated, unskilled labor who already get two times the industry standard in wages and benefits and are treated like GOLD... yet somehow they convince themselves they are getting fucked worse and worse every year when the contracts are up, yet they are taking more and more. He has to move most of his business to Canada and Oregon. Just like the film industry in Hollywood and other industries.

for every "good" there is 100 evils.

BuggyG · 07-14-2004, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brand0n
pornstar2pac finally got a job

ROFL!!!

bopha · 07-14-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
Just like the film industry in Hollywood and other industries.

for every "good" there is 100 evils.

I'm not going to disagree with you there. Thanks for posting, I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

gregtx · 07-14-2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bopha
Can you really take any numbers that W puts out there as accurate? He's missed the mark every single time he spews out a number. How bout those health care numbers....

It's a bad thing and many people who depend on overtime are not voting for him because of this. He's not for the working class that's for sure.

BTW... in our city, Union men make the beer you're probably enjoying right now. If you think this doesn't effect the men who've worked at places like AB their whole life.. wake up.
They aren't 'doing away' with unions or even propsing that.. they just want to 'reorganize' so companies can make a higher profit at the expense of the worker. AT AB, you have to work a certain amount of OT. You HAVE to, especially at Xmas. That won't change just because you dont' have to be paid for it. It's going to hurt families if this goes into effect.

Not all Union men are "inbreds". That's a very shortsided statement. The hotel industry is union, there's the resturant workers union.. It's not just dumb dockworkers this will effect.

Real people with real families, kids in college, mortages, lives are who will be ef fected. Whether or not any one agree with unions, is irrelevent to this proposal.

how about those health care numbers.. name one person that you know that was denied medical treatment b/c they could not pay the bill???? anyway...lets stick to the subject here

this is not about any union people loosing anything.. its about administrators, professionals, and excutives on salaries not qualifying for OT... it will not effect the lazy union worker who does his daily quota... and collects his over inflated paycheck...

but just like the liberal who started this thread, they will twist and turn the words around to make it all look like G.W.Bush is to blame...

last time i checks the executive office does not write laws???

and Clinton signed in NAFTA.. which moved lots of jobs to other coutries ;)

07-14-2004, 10:39 AM	#1
SuckOnThis So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In my head Posts: 6,844	6 million people will lose overtime pay thanks to Bush http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/14/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study. The Bush Administration issued proposed changes to overtime rules last year, but then revised them in March after criticism from some labor groups. The original proposal would have stripped overtime protection for 8 million workers, according to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), which studies issues affecting middle- and lower-income workers and receives funding from some labor groups. But the revisions would still strip OT pay for about 6 million workers, EPI said in a study released Tuesday. Under current rules, three tests determine whether a worker is eligible for overtime pay. The revised rules announced in March "would dramatically increase the number of workers who would be classified as 'professional,' 'administrative,' or 'executive' and thus remove millions of additional workers from overtime coverage," the EPI said. For instance, the group contends that employees who merely recommend, but not carry out, the changes for two employees they supervise will be classified as executives and become exempt from overtime pay. The Labor Department and supporters of the changes contend the revised regulations will update old rules, cover more workers and reduce the amount of class-action lawsuits. "These latest 'studies' are a rehash of misinformation the AFL-CIO and its allies put out about the department's final Overtime Security Rule in April -- assertions that were completely discredited in congressional hearings," Labor Department spokesman Ed Frank said in a statement.

07-14-2004, 11:00 AM	#2
Lycanthrope Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,517	So what, salaried employees, and this is whom it will affect, should NOT get overtime... __________________

07-14-2004, 12:11 PM	#10
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	Based on the first sentence of the article: "Revised changes to overtime rules proposed by the Bush administration will still fail to protect overtime pay for six million workers, according to a new study." it apears that 6 million workers are currently not getting overtime pay... but your title suggests that 6 million people have it now, but will lose it thanks to bush... That's the way I took it, I could be wrong though... :-/ __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

07-14-2004, 12:14 PM	#11
mardigras Bon temps! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: down yonder Posts: 14,194	Hey, for every professional job that gets sent overseas we get at least 10 positions back at Walmart __________________ .

07-14-2004, 12:47 PM	#18
gregtx Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,929	thanks Peaches.. Labor unions are the reason jobs are sent overseas in the first place... 70% of the cost to now build a US vehicle goes to pay the wages and benefits of the unionized labor... what good did those labor unions do? they raised the cost of living in those towns that survive on union labor. the majority of these people not protected will be those who are already working OT administration, professional, and executive possitions... or yes, salaried people. who normally get commisions, bonuses, or other monetary rewards.... anyone ever realize what benefits costs companies each year??? hell IMHO they should only get benefits if they do work OT! ;) __________________ Processing Partners http://www.processingpartners.com

07-14-2004, 11:45 AM	#3
dig420 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 9,240	Don't be fucking stupid. Every janitor will be a salaried 'maintenance manager' working 65 hr weeks for less than minimum wage, the restaurant industry already does this. Have you ever read a book on the labor movement? Here's one to get you started: The Jungle If the repubs wanted to allow child labor again there is a significant % of this country that would think it's a good idea. It's just too fucking bad I have to share my oxygen with them. Every advance we've made in human rights and the rights of the working man, fucking cool-ass conservatives want to throw it all away the first time some cocksucker in a cowboy hat tells them it's bad for the economy. I hate you all.

07-14-2004, 11:47 AM	#4
Pleasurepays BANNED - SUPPORTING TUBES Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I live in a pile of boogers Posts: 11,913	thanks to Bush, i employ 15 full time employees from another country for the cost of 1 US employee doing 1/15 or less of the work.

07-14-2004, 11:53 AM	#7
loverboy When it rains, it pours Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 20,609

07-14-2004, 12:24 PM	#14
Peaches Old broad Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Away Posts: 13,933	Looks like some people forgot their civics classes. Someone tap me on the back the next time the president of the US is able to make laws on his own. Heck, let me know when the republicans can do it too And Dig, I read The Jungle for the 1st time since HS last summer and it didn't change my mind about being a capitalist. I STILL think unions are a waste, they have too much power and they aren't any different than the corporations they dislike where the top guys are making all the $$$ off the ones at the bottom

07-14-2004, 12:31 PM	#16
The Truth Hurts Zph7YXfjMhg Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In Your Skull Posts: 15,304	Unions are not a waste, to even suggest that is fucking ignorant.

07-14-2004, 04:02 PM	#22
bopha Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,882	Can you really take any numbers that W puts out there as accurate? He's missed the mark every single time he spews out a number. How bout those health care numbers.... It's a bad thing and many people who depend on overtime are not voting for him because of this. He's not for the working class that's for sure. BTW... in our city, Union men make the beer you're probably enjoying right now. If you think this doesn't effect the men who've worked at places like AB their whole life.. wake up. They aren't 'doing away' with unions or even propsing that.. they just want to 'reorganize' so companies can make a higher profit at the expense of the worker. AT AB, you have to work a certain amount of OT. You HAVE to, especially at Xmas. That won't change just because you dont' have to be paid for it. It's going to hurt families if this goes into effect. Not all Union men are "inbreds". That's a very shortsided statement. The hotel industry is union, there's the resturant workers union.. It's not just dumb dockworkers this will effect. Real people with real families, kids in college, mortages, lives are who will be ef fected. Whether or not any one agree with unions, is irrelevent to this proposal.

07-14-2004, 04:11 PM	#23
jayeff Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 2,944	I guess the GOP taps into enough other prejudices that the lower ranks of the middle class (workers in other words) have to ignore legislation like this. Yet in areas such as where I live, these are the people who are the mainstay of the Republican party. At the very least it is ironic that workers vote for a party which sets out to fill shareholders pockets at their own expense.

07-14-2004, 04:32 PM	#24
Pleasurepays BANNED - SUPPORTING TUBES Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I live in a pile of boogers Posts: 11,913	Bopha, you are right that it might not be fair to characterize all union members as such. i was just speaking from my own experience. my whole life has been a very different story growing up in that environment with family and family friends that are all welders and pipefitters, electritions and so on. Some unions are definately a little more benign than others. One thing I noticed growing up was that they are extremely corrupt to begin with. they give all the best jobs to their friends and there was a lot of politics just to get work. by best jobs ... i mean 6 figure jobs that have 100's or 1000's of people in line for - say for example jobs in alaska in remote areas (North Slope, Dutch Harbor etc) Unions and uninion members demand loyalty even when there is no work. If you do work outside the union... even to survive, you are hated and ostracized. My uncle bought property, built a new house (his dream house) etc and then got laid off from his job. Thats not a big deal... but the ignorant ass had to be "loyal to his brothers" so he chose to listen to their promises of getting him back to work, rather than going and finding a job outside the union to provide for his family and save his home. Ultimately, he lost everything. That is a very common story. Very common in industries where jobs/projects are bid and the work is temporary.. say a 1 yr project and they are all relying on the union to line up more contracts after so they continue to be employed. more than anything, they can't wait to figure out how to do less work for more money. How do you run a business effectively when you have a work force that is constantly testing new ideas to be less effective and less productive. with some industries, that is a little more difficult to achieve like a restaurant. But what about a job where everyone on the job is Union? Labor, Electritions, Plumbers, Welders, Carpenters, Painters etc etc etc. It is a clusterfuck. Always. Not only that but Union labor is almost ALWAYS more expensive and almost NEVER better. Here is a good example of the union mindset that i personally witnessed (as well as countless similar situations like it) We have a big ship in a shipyard in Seattle. We have serious deadlines to get the work done. lost days to delays means 100's of thousands in lost revenue. So... a welder needs to weld something. Its on his little work order for the day. He slowly works his way to the area. slowly dicks aroung setting his stuff up. Then... announces that he cannot do anything because there are tools in the way (tools from another worker in the yard). So, i go to move the tools... He freaks out! "don't touch any of the shipyards equipment or tools etc etc etc... its in the rules" This guy is getting big bucks to stand there. So i ask him who has to move the tools. He tells me who is responsible for the tools. I find that guy. He tells me it's not his job to move the tools. It was either the job of the laboror or the apprentice (i forgot which). Welder is still standing there. Anyway... it took me about 2 hrs to find the right guy to go move the tools. .. so he can start right and do his 5 minutes of welding? Nope. A light is out. it was not dark out and the light was not effective.. but according to union safety regulations, the light had to be fixed before any work could be done... even though we were standing in broad daylight at about 1 in the afternoon on a sunny day. So... I can't change the light. I have to go find an electrition to change the light. After finally finding an electrition to change the bulb.. he lets me know its not his job and i have to find his helper. Where is he? no one knows. We went around in circles for most of the day trying to get one guy who was costing us close to $100.00 an hour to just stand there so he could do 5 mins worth of work... and he was very proud of himself and thought it was very funny that he had such an easy job. Thats a normal story that I have witnessed in my life. Very typical of what Unions represent. I have a friend who is having a $50,000,000 a year seafood business destroyed by uneducated, unskilled labor who already get two times the industry standard in wages and benefits and are treated like GOLD... yet somehow they convince themselves they are getting fucked worse and worse every year when the contracts are up, yet they are taking more and more. He has to move most of his business to Canada and Oregon. Just like the film industry in Hollywood and other industries. for every "good" there is 100 evils. Last edited by Pleasurepays; 07-14-2004 at 04:35 PM..