You aren't understanding because you dont want to listen to both sides. You just listen to the side that supports the view you want to believe for whatever reason.

For the people that don't know. Its been proven over and over that Michael Moore is dishonest in the way he edits his "documentary's". Why would you believe a liar calling another person a liar? Do your own research in the matter. If Bush going to war is about money for himself and his buddies. Don't you think there is a better way to make money silently? Do you really think Bush is an evil person trying to fuck over everyone but himself and his buddies? If so you people need some head checks or at least learn how to read and listen.

Can you think of a better way to make money than he has? Because for the life of me, I think him & Cheney both are probably cleaning fucking house right now.

I bet you didnt know that more people die of getting hit by a train in America then in the Iraq war. I guess we should abadon the train because it's to dangerous.

Whats most shocking is that the people on the right side of the political fence think that everybody who see's the movie believes Moore is a god or something. As if once exposed to the documentary, their power to think for themselves vanishes.

It's just a movie, and it's opinion. Think for yourselves, let others think for themselves, and let the chips fall where they may.

The Bush camp says theres more facts in Shrek 2. And they also say that if they want to see a piece of fiction, they'll go see Shrek 2.

Umm.. wait a minute :1orglaugh

Prove it that they are cleaning house. I bet its easier to to set up a few drug rings, and make a few people turn their heads then to have a whole nation talking about a war every day. But honestly, if its all about money how much money does one need? Yes, I'm sure the Adminstration is just a a bunch of sick indivduals trying to all make more money then they can spend in 10 lifetimes. Again, if you think this you need your head checked...

I agree that if you're followed around with a camera you'll say and look stupid blah blah blah. Which is why I had a bit of a problem with all of the "putting on makeup/prepping for press conferences" footage -- it's not informative, just pure manipulation. But you know what? I loved every second of it. I don't think Michael Moore's methods are angelic or genius . . . but I appreciate the perspective and the entertainment -- you're right -- it's a MOVIE and no one would want to watch it if it weren't entertaining. Isn't there another thread in here with the video clip of Bush "entertaining" everyone with his oh-so-funny jokes about the war? It's funny how people think Michael Moore should exemplify higher standards of veracity, entertainment, morals, ethics, etc. than the imposter in the White House. Hmmm.

As far as him "violating" the families . . . please. I'm sure they were well paid which is more than can be said for the soldiers in Iraq.

Well, I for one know a number of people that dont care much more about life then being able to pay for their cigarettes and beer for the day. If everyone in America was educated with at least a college degree then this film wouldnt even be realesed. But thats simply not the truth. I bet more then just a few will watch this film and think 100% of it is the truth.

But lets take a gander at the other side of the ball. If someone made a "documentary" about your job. And used clever editing to make you look dishonest and incomptent. How would that go over with you? This isnt to say there would be no truth to the matter because im sure you have done things that werent entirely honest and or the smartest things. Just like everyone else.

If you cant see it already the problem lies in exaggerating situations and inserting biased information on a much more complex situation.

Speaking of morons, fucktard . . . you should be aware that *I* am not *the president*. :1orglaugh

I just saw your picture in the dictionary next to "naive".

So he is not human? I dont know about you. But I for one don't want a president that wouldnt take the proper time to site and think this one through... If he jumped up and started yelling for his nuclear code book the world would of ended dont you think?

But anyways, I dont know about you, but i abadoned my daily activities to sit transfixed in front of the tube to see whats going on... I think it's only normal. To expect differnent is rediculus.

people who put down michael moore laugh when american soldiers die.

its soooo funny to them

Did you consult your 5yr old for that insult or what?

But, to consider me naive because i dont inheritently think everyone doing things i dont neccesarly agree in is lyeing to me and evil is again rediculus. Or better yet, why do people that are informed act like they are? How many people in this world really know all the information behind the decisions the president makes? I'm guessing a handful at the most. So why does everyone 2nd guess like they know more?

To expect you to employ critical thinking skills when you can't even spell is ridiculous. :glugglug

You are on fire tonight with your insults. Your 5yr old must have had too much coke or something.

Well, theres not too much duplicity in my life. I'm pretty much a hermit.
I dont think education would have an effect on whether or not the movie was made or released, there is alot of compelling things in there. Without them, theres no material to make the movie with. I really dont think people will vote based on a movie.
I had made up my mind about which way to vote at least a year ago for example.. I would consider myself a moderate really, and I dont care which party is in office. I just care about the people in office, and I'll make fun of the next guy when he or she deserves it too, lol :winkwink:

Incidently, the distributor of the movie says that it's 100% based on fact. BASED on fact. I personally dont care to argue one way or the other on that, but they claim they are ready and waiting to fight people who outright claim something stated as fact in the movie is a lie. They sound pretty confident. Beats me.

One thing that is for sure, it got people talking and debating, which can only be a good thing. These days, people have so many media outlets that they can simple watch or listen or surf on sites that already align with their views. Thats dangerous I think..

Anywho, I'd just encourage people to be sure to think for themselves, and have a real reason or two when they vote. Dont take either sides extreme arguments as gospel truth, just use common sense and vote your mind.

You're right. Just like Bush, I have advisors who help me speak so that even retards like you can understand.

Well, i assume educated people have avenues to do their own research and think for themselves. And I think there is a tendency to think everyone thinks for themselves to some level. But, I think history has proven this is simply not true. If it was we wouldnt see all the campaign ads etc. We'd just have a few debates and let the issues stand out.

Based on facts is what they say. I'm sure they can prove that thats not really saying much. Theories on how we got here are based on fact but that doesnt mean they are true.

I wish everyone would think for themselves and let the issues speak for themselves. The worst thing I can imagine is someone voting for Kerry or whoever just simply because they think Bush is a liar. Not, because they like Kerry and the way he stands on his issues etc.

It doesnt mean the theories are true, but the fact itself is all that is being claimed as true. If a glass has 50% water and 50% air, is it half full or half empty? :winkwink:

Moore himself was the first person I saw saying it's totally slanted to his personal views. Theres no reason he has to present a "fair and balanced" view. (couldnt resist)

Anyway, dont give up on the uneducated. I dropped out of school at 16 to go to work and never went back.

The most shocking fact is how mediocre this is as a documentary and how untrustworthy Moore is. If you want to see a good, fact-based documentary, go to "Super Size Me." Now that was excellent............

Keep in my mind I was hoping that Fahrenheit 9/11 would sway that key undecided 10-15% of the undecided vote if they saw it. I want Bush defeated as he's bad for our industry, pure and simple. In this vein, the movie fails miserably as its partisan tripe. The "facts" are already starting to get knocked down left right and center. Its typical Moore bullshit. He's the bullshit artist of the left just like Limbaugh is the bullshit artist of the right, although I like Moore though more than Limbaugh as Rush is a piece of shit. This movie won't have any effect on the election as its preaching to the choir. There are a lot of hypocrites on this board who give Moore a free pass just because they want Bush defeated. I won't.........but I still want Bush defeated. I have taken countless poly sci courses and feel the effect of this movie is next to nothing, in the end.

Lets put it this way; the real effect of the upcoming election will be Nader. If Kerry loses a close election, its fuckin' Nader's fault.

Drop out Ralph! Now!!

Just curious, where did you find the number of Americans killed by getting hit by a train? I would be interested to know this number.

The facts in all movies are the truth.

:1orglaugh

The best part IMO, was when Bush had the Talibian guys visiting Texas before 9-11 and he was trying to schmooze up with them.

I really liked the part where the women reporter was giving the taliban guy grief and his reply was.. "I bet your husband has lots of trouble with you"..



LOL I crack up every time I see that part

Funny you should pick that film as an example of an excellent documentary... it too has it's share of detractors
The Supersize Me Con

Like I said before, I'm amazed that people are so quick to call out Moores methods of editing and filming. But yet they don't discredit their CNN, FOX, and other moderately biased media sources. I Guess because most of you are already conditioned to feel a certain way about certain issues (politics, religion, race, etc). All Moore did was provide a second opinon on this situation. You dumbasses say you love freedom so much than why do persecute anyone who doesn't believe what you believe?


Sadly Moore is probably one of the few whites in MY time, that has been able to display the stupidity and hypocrisy of our great nation. Like Moore said on an interview on a radio station out here -- If he was Black he'd probably be dead by now. So I'm glad that he has his skin color and money keeping him alive to continue to display it!

Yes american's solve problem with guns too readily. The cause is bad gun control / registration laws.

Instead of police arresting criminal using guns they waste time dealing with stupid gun registration laws. Canada spends more money per capita on police services, and violent gun crime did not significantly increase until the liberals spent 5 billion for their new gun registration law. Getting people to register their weapons sounds like a good idea until you realize that you have to take police officer away from investigating crimes and patroling the streets to enforce the paper work requirements of this new law.


Remember the clip of Heston holding a gun and saying " from my cold dead hands" well the event that was run never had that line. The NRA dropped all their fun events (mixers) and focused their attention on documenting how if the current laws were used the killers at colinbine would never have gotten a gun in the first place.

Moore deliberately misrepresented parts of Heston's speach to make him and the NRA look like gun toting yahoos who didn't give a dam about people getting killed

"NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.

Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.

So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy."

Became "Don't come here? We're already here" spliced between the pleas of a mayor that NRA should not come to denver to make Heston sound like a jackass

Heston's message was that it is ignorant to make gun owners unwelcome in a place where murdering thugs happened to perpetrate evil with guns. Heston reached out to those angry at the very existence and presence of the NRA to not couple violent gun killers with simple gun owners, and not to demonize those you disagree with.

The fact Britney Speirs was in it. Her stupidity however, was not shocking.


BG

I don't think it was her stupidity as much as her manipulating a generation of teens to follow & trust your government.

The most shocking aspect of the movie was how few of the facts that it presented had received any coverage at all in the mainstream media. I had seen everything scattered through foreign media over the past 2+ years, but I had forgotten just how deliberately pro-invasion our own media had been, how much they had kept from the American public.

Of course F911 was biased: it would have been a non-event otherwise. If we had balanced media, Moore's facts would have been included in their coverage and they would have asked his questions and F911 would never have been made.

Perhaps that is because, without any help from Moore, the NRA come across as gun toting yahoos who don't give a damn about people getting killed?

Many people, myself included, find a compelling logic in the fact that the citizens of most countries with more restrictive gun laws slaughter fewer of their number each year. But I am willing to admit I have no proof of that, so there may be another reason.

But the pro-gun lobby rarely attempt to address the reality that this is an exceptionally violent country. If the ownership of guns is not responsible for the annual death toll, what is? If removing some of the guns would not reduce that toll, what would?

And have you noticed how so often someone starts off by talking about self defense and constitutional rights, but within a few sentences is describing in detail the makes and models of what turns out to be a minor arsenal? I wouldn't just take some of these guys toys away, I would lock them up in a rubber cell somewhere...

Hitler propoganda films also reported the facts (they used news footage as well) they just ignored facts or took that statements out of context.

if you would like an example

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush. Before that, some other networks had called Florida for Gore, and they changed after Fox called it for Bush.



Dave Kopel catches more deception:

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening?before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.



The premature calls probably cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided, and many voters who were waiting in line left the polling place. In Florida, as elsewhere, voters who have arrived at the polling place before closing time often end up voting after closing time, because of long lines. The conventional wisdom of politics is that supporters of the losing candidate are most likely to give up on voting when they hear that their side has already lost. (Thus, on election night 1980, when incumbent President Jimmy Carter gave a concession speech while polls were still open on the West coast, the early concession was widely blamed for costing the Democrats several Congressional seats in the West. The fact that all the networks had declared Reagan a landslide winner while West coast voting was still in progress was also blamed for Democratic losses in the West.) Even if the premature television calls affected all potential voters equally, the effect was to reduce Republican votes significantly, because the Florida panhandle is a Republican stronghold; depress overall turnout in the panhandle, and you will necessarily depress more Republican than Democratic votes.



At 10:00 p.m., which network took the lead in retracting the premature Florida result? The first retracting network was CBS, not Fox.



Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.



CBS had taken the lead in making the erroneous call for Gore, and had taken the lead in retracting that call. At 3:59 a.m., CBS also took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service. (Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, ?CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations? (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.)



Moore?s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, formally speaking, false. But notice how he says, ?Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy?? The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change (?All of a sudden the other networks said, ?Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.??)



This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.


Ignore the fact that ABC was the only news agency to follow the rules and not call any state before the polls had closed.

Ignore the fact that even FOX called the Gore earlier.

Ignore the fact that the first News agency to retract the call Gore as the winner was CBS.

Ignore the fact that Florida polls close based on the registration desk and not on when the vote is cast creating a situation where registered voters (in a predominately republican area) were waiting in line when their guy was falsely reported to have lost and therefore LEFT WITHOUT VOTING FOR THERE GUY

Ignore the fact pro- republican voter groups (the counter parts to the Congressional Black Caucus ) collect signature of registered voters who did not vote (people who left early because of the false call). The ratio was approximately 1.25 for every vote that was "lost" from the gore side

Two wrongs don't make a right but fixing one wrong and ignoring another does not make things right either.

That why "Sen. Minority Leader Tom Daschle (D-SD) had previously advised Democratic senators not to cooperate" he knew the voting irregularities that favored gore exceeded those that favored bush.

The only way you could consider Gore the winner was to deliberately ignore the voting system based on the electorial college and choose to use the popular vote.

In other words ignore all election law because your guy did not win. By that standard Clinton should never have won either.

.........................your new BMW.....that is a shocker and amazing at the same time....nice new car buddy....good seeing you today!
Smashbucks was visiting the Adult Lounge - World Wide Content headquarters today, good seeing you guys. !!!!!!!

What he said :thumbsup

I heard it on some radio add trying to get people to be more careful around trains... I think it was 2 people every hour, or 1 person every 2 hours.. Or something of that nature. If you want the exact figure i suggest google.

Trixie:

About Bush sitting for about 7-10 mins in that classroom after being told "Mr President, we are under attack"...

This was a man in panic and trying to think thru stuff. Bush does have at least two "personal problems" which have "inhibited" him thinking clearly.

One is that he does have a speech impediment and this also extends beyond his ability to get words flowing out of his mouth in a coherrent manner. Associated with that is also an "impediment" in thought processing. This is common with people associated with dyslexia. Think I read some members of his family has a more "pronounced" problem like this?

The other is, - hell, I don't know Bush's "real" background, but he clearly shows the actions of a person subject to "addiction" of some kind. Watch his mouth and the ease at which he can deliver "instant blame" elsewhere, - the sign of an "addict", tho he can't make more rational statements so easily. (ie.. "It was not my fault - it was them")

I suspect what we saw in that classroom was a mind in panic wondering what the hell he should do now. Any rational person would have calmly excused themselves with the children and got their ass outta there damned fast and find out what the fuck is going on.

BTW.. This ain't no "defense" of Bush :winkwink: I know he is a born liar and no better than a common criminal who, should not be standing within 100 miles of the Oval Office, but in a courtroom standing trial.

PS... The "black and white" way Bush sees stuff is also the "addictive personality" showing thru...

Was the guy on coke or booze at some time??

Hard to argue with actual BLOODWORK............and 3 doctors documenting this as it happened. All he ate or drank was Rotten Ronnies for 1 month.

Fuck, finally someone on here dissecting Moore with some intelligence instead of following him blindly like sheep just because he's anti-Bush. I'm anti-Bush, but I think Moore is disgusting. Maybe because I've helped make films and spent countless hours in the editing studio, I also see his techniques of twisting the half truths. Take BFC for instance........the most dramatic scene in the whole movie, when Heston was walking away from Moore at the end, from the interview, and Moore was calling out to him..................notice the camera angle switching to a FRONTAL shot of Moore.......the camera goes from being in behind of Moore and watching Heston walk off, to a shot of the camera being in front of Moore as Moore was pretending to address Heston...........confront him as he was walking away. It was pure theatre and pure bullshit...........Moore was really addressing NO ONE and was acting for the camera like he was addressing Heston yet still.

And you ppl who love him put your faith in someone who will, in the guise of a "documentary" (I feel you can't really call his films that), in its key moment, will basically lie to the viewer? He's dishonest at his core because HE IS A FANATIC. He, like Limbaugh, believes so deeply in his cause that he will twist facts or outright lie to make his point.

I don't put my faith in ppl such as this.

Pig shit.

Michael Moore raises some interesting points in his "Documentaries(*1)" and there's no question that he gets people to both think and discuss the issues. Look at the number of posts and threads about Michael Moore.

When I first saw BFC I was surprised at the "Facts" he was presenting to the viewer. Much like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Negotiator", I tend to look at one side of the argument then search out and find the OTHER side of the argument. Then decide for myself what REALLY happened. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle.

Naturally, upon my further research, I stumbled across www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com and noticed that they take the OPPOSITE side of view of Michael Moore films.

The links section includes some very interesting things that I didn't realize.

a)The opening segmant at the bank was SCRIPTED. The bank in question IS a licensed arms dealer, BUT they keep their rifles some 300 miles away and someone opening an account, doesn't immediately recieve their rifle handed to them like portrayed in the movie. They must return to receive it and it is given to them in a BOX.

b)The NRA meeting in Littleton. By LAW, the NRA had to hold that meeting and in fact CANCELLED every other scheduled event because of the tragedy at Columbine High School.

c)The scene in which Charlton Heston raised his hand with a rifle and declared "From my cold dead hands" was in fact from an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT speaking engagement.

d)Charlton Heston's appearance in Flint Michigan after Little Kayla's death was 8 MONTHS after her tragic killing. NOT days like the viewer was cleverly tricked into believing.

While there are literally dozens of clarifications as to Michael Moore's deception, those 4 stand out as crucial to him making his point in this movie.

MY point is, as I say, while Michael Moore raises some interesting points, is he so strapped for the facts that he has to mislead the viewing audience with clever editing? There are surely enough facts out there for him to make his movies that he shouldn't need to do this. Maybe, maybe not.

Perhaps he should be looking into why Ralph Nader is accepting donations from the REPUBLICAN party. What does that tell you?

The most disturbing part of Michael Moore's movies is that it seems to hypnotize what would be normally rational, intelligent human beings, into thinking that EVERYTHING that he says is the truth verbatim and anyone that attempts to, or PROVES he is being false and/or misleading, is simply a hater and ignoring the "Truth".


One quick point on the defintion of a documentary that Michael Moore likes to pass his movies off as. In Fahrenheit 9/11 alone, the scene in which he voices over footage of GWB sitting in the classroom and SPECULATES on what GWB is thinking, should have eliminated him from the category of Documentary at Cannes.


*1-Documentary

-A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.

-Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

Now watch Orwell Rolls in his Grave and come back to us.