sacX

I think Loryn is actually Ann Coulter.

slackologist

It's too bad that so few people that have opinions or viewpoints opposing Moore's work are talented enough to communicate their views to the world with the effectiveness that he does.

theking

Actually in some reports about Zarqawi...he operated out of Baghdad long before he established a training camp in Northern Iraq. He also was treated in a Baghdad hospital which was used by top Iraqi leaders...after he was wounded...if I recall correctly...in Afghanistan. Admittedly reports about Zarqawi are conflicting...depending on the source.

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mardigras

This is not true and Moore has addressed it in interviews. Sure a PG13 would have made more money (like it's not a boxoffice blockbuster as is) but his primary reason for wanting the PG13 is so the young folks who are approaching the age to vote/enlist could see it.

I don't think the monetary gain from a PG13 rating would be as high as some may think. Quite frankly most kids aren't interested in politics and will be passing the door of this film to go see Spiderman 2, a film which would lose significant income if it had been rated R.

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Tala

This is still here? Glad I got my seat early.

*waits for the popcorn vendor to come back by*

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sperbonzo

Morning everybody.....Just checking back on that little thread that I started before I left my office last night and.....HOLY CRAP! LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THIS THING! ROTFLMAO!!!!


By the way Loryn, have I told you what a lovely drink of water you are lately? (very, very yummy)

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Pleasurepays

I think you are backwards. Moore's existence and success is a response to a Republican controlled White House, Senate, Congress as well as total and complete talk radio domination.

The problem in my opinion is there is not enough Michael Moore's out there.

Kingfish

Since your back did you bother to read that your Newsweek article was discredited, by its own author as he sheepishly had to admit on MSNBC?s Scarborough country that he had misquoted the movie?

BustIt

http://www.techcentralstation.com/061704C.html

Capitalist Populist

I'm sure Mr. Moore will not accept my suggestions. He's going to do whatever it takes to get more media attention and get more money for himself. In fact, he encouraging kids under 17 to lie about their age and see the movie anyway. (That way, he gets paid more.) Although he advocates income redistribution on TV, in real life he's a shrewd and selfish business man, a fat Gordon Gekko in a baseball cap.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/061704C.html

sperbonzo

I did read that, yes. It is interesting, I'm going to look for a transacript and see what happened. Do you have a link to the transcript?

There were also a bunch of other things listed in this thread (and BTW....PEOPLE, PEOPLE PEOPLE! YOU KIDS NEED TO PLAY NICE! ANY MORE OF THIS INFIGHTING AND NAME CALLING AND I'M GOING TO TURN THIS CAR AROUND RIGHT NOW, AND IT'S NO DISNEYWORLD FOR ANYBODY!).


http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/
http://evilpundit.com/archives/004374.html#004318
http://www.moorelies.com/
Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man (new book)
http://moorelies.com/book/
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/
http://www.mooreexposed.com/
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
http://www.hardylaw.net/mental.html (Moore's disorder)
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3760

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Tom_PMs

Is everyone still arguing about how some other peoples opinions matter to you and why they should matter to everyone else?

k

Tala

This thread is kinda like "The Exorcist" :

It just keeps getting funnier everytime I see it!

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BustIt

Well, thanks for the small bit of help Kingfish. I don't have the time to research every claim that is made by the opposition.

It's so easy just to reply *that's not true* -- and then of course the other person has to come up with the *proof*

Notice no one has to come up with *proof* that Moore is correct with his litany of conspiracy theories however.

But Communists in China and Hezbollah I understand are practically jerking off to it ;)

mardigras

I've read that money twist on it already. Only if the film were a NC17 would kids actually have to lie about their age. What he said was he wants them to see the film any way they can. Most kids could probably get their guardian to take them if they really wanted to see it but he knows there are parents who won't be fair-minded enough to do so or those who just sends Jr. out to get them out of their hair and aren't interested in doing things with him. The ones just getting out of school are a prime target audience for this film... the ones who will vote for a president then perhaps go fight his wars. This film was given an R rating not for anything Michael Moore filmed but for violence in existing news footage.

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BustIt

Sorry, that was *the king* and not *kingfish*

BustIt

No transcript.

I ran across an article that said the book *Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man* is being buried among the shelves in many bookstores that have it.

The book is by two Libertarians -- not Repubs.

It claims to demolish the conspiracy theories in Moore's *doc*.

BustIt

Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

BustIt

I'll just add this nice description of the book:

Book Description
Watching Michael Moore in action -- passing off manipulating facts in Bowling for Columbine, spinning statistics in Stupid White Men and Dude, Where's My Country?, shamelessly grandstanding at the Academy Awards, and epitomizing the hypocrisy he's made a king's fortune railing against -- has spurred authors David T. Hardy and Jason Clarke to take action into their own hands. In Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man, Hardy and Clarke dish it back hard to the fervent prophet of the far left, turning a careful eye on Moore's use of camera tricks and publicity ploys to present his own version of the truth.
Postwar documentarians gave us the documentary, Rob Reiner gave us the mockumentary, and Moore initiated a third genre, the crockumentary.

How, they ask, does Moore pull off a proletarian, "man-of-the-people" image so at odds with his lifestyle as a fabulously wealthy Manhattanite? And how large of an impact do his incendiary, ill-founded polemics have on the growing community that follows him with near-religious devotion? Loaded with well-researched, solidly reasoned arguments, and laced with irreverent wit, Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man fires back at one of the left's biggest targets -- politically and literally.

BustIt

*Crockumentary*

Matt Frackas

Something funny from one of those links:
"Fahrenheit Fact no. 20: Condi doesn't think Iraq was involved in 9/11

Remember this quote from Condi Rice about Iraq in Fahrenheit 911

"It?s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.?

So...shes saying in essence:
1) She does NOT think Saddam and his Regime were directly involved.
2) The cause of shit like 911 is [hateful ideologies TOWARDS THE US

Does she think Invading & occupying Iraq is going to create more LOVE for America? LOL

Im not saying we shouldnt necessarily have removed Saddam....but thats not the point.

The POINT IS:



Q) What were the REASONS which George Bush used to sell the Iraq war to the American people? and have those reasons held up so far?

A) WMD and Saddams supposed links to Intl terror.....and so far those reasons arent holding up.

2) and did Michael Moore LIE about this?
If MM did lie about this somewhere ...its irrelevant to me ...because Ive been ALIVE and watching TV everytime George sold thethe war to me.

I especially like the clip (which Ive seen BEFORE MM's movie) where George says ("after all, he (Saddam) did try to kill my Dad")

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Kingfish

I am not going to bother reading crackpot conservative websites. If you want to compare those I can cite you numerous sites that say George W is a war criminal, the anti-Christ, an alien, and so on. Lets stick to known sources so we can have at least a halfway intelligent debate. No I don?t have a transcript, but you can order one from MSNBC if you like.

sperbonzo

I read sites from every side. Give me some crackpot leftist sites and I will peruse those also.

Going to MSNBC to get the transcript......

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sperbonzo

Hey.....I'm looking for the transcript....and look what I found!

(I will still find the transcript though)




By Joe Scarborough
Updated: 12:10 p.m. ET June 25, 2004

I went to see ?Fahrenheit 9/11? Thursday expecting to be entertained despite political objections, but I was wrong. To say Moore took liberty with the truth would be like saying that Ken Lay took liberties with Enron's accounting practices. Fahrenheit 9/11,? like Enron's accountants, obviously figured that when it came to making money, the end justified the means.

advertisement
In both cases, the scale of deceit and deception is breathtaking. Though I'd need four hours to tell you the list of all the falsehoods from Moore's two-hour movie, let me give you a few glimpses into his twisted logic:

Moore's movie begins by pitching his conspiracy theory about the 2000 election. We're all told in the audience by all recounting methods Al Gore won Florida. That drew a big gasp from the crowd. But, shockingly, this first fact cited by Moore's movie is a lie. Didn't anybody associated with Miramax or Michael Moore's movie read newspapers after the election, when some of America's most liberal papers published results from their independent review of Florida's ballots, concluding it was George W. Bush who won by all recounting methods?

And what of the second conspiracy theory, suggesting that George W. Bush kept Americans grounded after 9/11 but let the bin Laden family escape American airspace scot-free? An FBI agent suggested President Bush's action was an insult to 3,000 dead Americans, while Democratic Senator Byron Dorgan dramatically demands on tape that we must have an investigation to find out who approved this.

But Michael and the senator both know who approved the bin Laden transfer: It was none other than that Bush-bashing hero of the left, Richard Clarke. He admitted it in the 9/11 Commission. Now, it's funny how Michael Moore used Clarke's 9/11 testimony to bash Bush in other parts of the movie, but decided to edit out that part that lays waste to bin Laden-and- Bush conspiracy theory.

These two gross distortions are in the first five minutes of the film. But I can tell you that this film can only add to coarsening of America's democracy. Moore seems to promote the following slanderous conspiracy theories in his movie:

*
The Bushes and the bin Ladens were so close that Bush let their family skip out of town while Americans were grounded,
*
That the bin Laden family somehow helped George W. Bush start his first oil company, and that George W. Bush cares more about Saudi Arabia than America because the Saudis funneled $1.4 billion to Bush family interests.
*
America didn't invade Afghanistan to kick out the Taliban. America attacked Afghanistan so we could put an oil pipeline in Afghanistan. That's why George Bush didn't care if the Taliban got away. (Oh, really? I don't think they got away.)
*
The White House purposely tried to scare Americans into believing there was a terror threat after 9/11 so they could pass the Patriot Act, which they had already dreamed up before these 9/11 attacks even occurred.
*
We invaded Iraq for no other reason than their oil, allowing young American kids to die just so oil companies could make more money.


Now, there are hundreds of conspiracy theories that are simply unsupported by the facts. But Moore goes on to show pictures of dead Iraqi babies, followed immediately by American soldiers talking about the rush they got listening to rock C.D.s while they shot at anything they moved in Iraq. Why didn't Moore just write "baby killers" on the screen and point to U.S. troops?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Michael Moore would make this kind of movie, but I am stunned that movie critics, Hollywood moguls and liberal movie viewers across America really think so little of America, its soldiers and its leaders.

Friends, it's a dark, grim and distorted perspective of our great nation. I think it's just wrong.
Joe Scarborough is host of 'Scarborough Country.' The show airs weeknights, 10 p.m. ET on MSNBC.

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sperbonzo

So here is the transcript of the Scarborough exchange. Sorry you guys, but it doesn't look like the newsweek article was "discredited", and Michael Isikoff sure isn't "sheepish"

______________________________


But, Michael Isikoff, you actually wrote an article in ?Newsweek? and you reported the following claims were made in ?Fahrenheit 9/11.? Take a look at this, first, that when airspace was shut down after 9/11, the White House approved special charter flights to let Saudi citizens, including some bin Laden?s, to get out of the country before being interrogated.

Moore claims that that?s wrong. He says the movie acknowledges that

most of the bin Laden?s were interrogated and the flights happened after

airspace reopened. Second, you reported that Moore accuses the Carlisle

Group, a firm that had ties to the Bushes and the bin Laden?s, of having

gained financially from 9/11. Moore still stands by that claim. And also

he accused you?quote??of making completely false and misleading

statements about facts and issues contained in ?Fahrenheit 9/11.??

Michael Isikoff, have you made false and misleading claims about Mr.

Moore?s movie?

MICHAEL ISIKOFF, ?NEWSWEEK?: No, I don?t think so.

I actually think he did make a?it is a very provocative movie. It is worth seeing, regardless of where you come down on a lot of these issues. And some of the footage in the movie?and I wrote about this in the piece?is pretty gripping.

I think in particular, I don?t think anybody has seen the footage of President Bush when he first learns about the second attack on the Trade Center, on the World Trade Center, and is told America is under attack and how he reacts. And, of course, as?the original White House accounts, Andy Card, who had whispered in his ear, had said President Bush had gotten up not that many seconds later.

In fact, as the footage in the movie shows, he sat there for seven minutes, was reading ?My Pet Goat? to the second graders in the classroom in Florida. I think people are going to come out sort of debating a lot and talking a lot about the president and how he reacted and whether that was the right reaction or the appropriate reaction.

But, that said, I do think some aspects of the movie are a bit over

the top. The movie clearly leaves the impression that these flights of the

Saudis took place during a time when airspace was shut down. It shows

Ricky Martin unable to get to the Latin Grammy Awards, unable to fly, and

it says, some people didn?t want to fly and then did fly, the bin Laden

family, for instance. In fact, the report from the 9/11 Commission shows -

· states that the Saudi flights didn?t begin until after federal airspace was reopened.

That?s not made clear in the movie. There is an exchange which clearly leaves the impression that these people were not interviewed. Craig Unger, the author of the book called ?The House of Saud,? says all that happened at the airport is that they were identified and that their passports were checked. Well, the report from the 9/11 Commission says that, on the bin Laden flight in particular, which seems to be the one that is the most focused on in the movie, I think 22 of the 26 people were interviewed.

And it says, many were asked detailed questions. And, thirdly, the whole sort of crux of that passage is that the White House approved these flights. And we do know who at the White House approved those flights, because there was testimony before the 9/11 hearings on this, and it was Richard Clarke, who actually was a holdover from the Clinton administration who was serving as counterterrorism czar. The thrust of the movie is that the flights were approved because of some special access that the Saudis had to President Bush and his family.

SCARBOROUGH: And, of course, Richard Clarke did testify that he was the one that approved it. And he said, you know what? I would make the same decision again if faced with that same decision.

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: Can I just jump in here?

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: I?m sorry, Chris. We?ve got another guest. We want to go to him first.

David Sheff, you actually interviewed Michael Moore. Here we have this policy debate brewing about ?Fahrenheit 9/11.? You have got people on the right yelling at Michael Moore. You have people on the left embracing him, throwing roses. Everybody is just playing into Michael Moore?s hands, aren?t they?

DAVID SHEFF, ?PLAYBOY?: Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH: This is all he wants.

SHEFF: Yes.

SCARBOROUGH: Just like Mel Gibson before and ?The Passion,? this is all Michael Moore wants, is for people to talk about him.

SHEFF: Absolutely. He has trumped Mel Gibson easily here. He would love this conversation that we are having right now.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes, tell me about the Michael Moore that you interviewed and tell me about that interview. What did you learn after talking to him? What kind of guy is he?

SHEFF: Well, I was actually quite impressed by Moore.

He?s a provocateur par excellence. He was great fun. I walked through the streets with him, which really surprised me. I was amazed how many people came up to him, all kinds of people, and seemed to cheer him on. I do have some questions about his taste, particularly when he said he has a big crush on Hillary Clinton. But, otherwise, I was actually quite impressed by him.

SCARBOROUGH: Chris Lehane, you wanted to respond to some of the things that Michael Isikoff said?

LEHANE: Yes. And I have great respect for Michael. He is a wonderful reporter.

But I think, if you carefully look at the words that were employed and the facts that are employed in this movie on that particular portion that he is talking about, you will find that it?s very, very hard to question it. First of all, we do not say that flights took off when federal airspace was closed.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Viewers don?t look at a transcript, though, Chris. You know that. They are left with an impression by looking at images.

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sperbonzo

LEHANE: Yes, but we are very, very careful. We make very clear that the flights didn?t take off until after September 13, which is when federal airspace was opened.

And the Saudis that Michael is talking about, there were 140 Saudis on those flights, 142. Only 30 of them were interviewed in a way that was completely inconsistent with usual FBI and Justice Department protocol. In fact, even in the 9/11 Commission report that Michael is referring to, it raises some issues about the length of those interviews and the fact that the vast majority of folks who left the country after this terrible tragedy were not interviewed.

There?s an FBI agent in the movie who personally talks about the fact that this was not consistent with the practices that should have been employed.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: OK, Chris.

Michael, respond.

ISIKOFF: Well, Joe, I think the point you were saying, that the clear impression of the movie is a little different than some of the particular words that sort of slip by very quickly.

For instance, an example, Chris says that they never say that it was when federal airspace was shut down. They say it happened after September 13. But it doesn?t say in the movie, at least not in any transcript I have seen or what I heard when I saw the movie, that that?s when federal airspace was reopened.

LEHANE: But that?s not what you wrote in your piece, Michael.

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: In the piece that you wrote in ?Newsweek,? you specifically said that Michael Moore?s movie stated that flights left while federal airspace was closed. The movie does not state that. Your piece was wrong on that.

(CROSSTALK)

ISIKOFF: Does the movie say that it?explicitly say that when federal airspace was reopened? Does it say that?

LEHANE: Did your story specifically state that the movie did state that? Is that what your story said?

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: This is important, because you wrote this specifically in your piece. And, as I said, you?re an awesome reporter, but you had that one wrong.

SCARBOROUGH: Michael, did you have that one wrong?

ISIKOFF: No.

One thing, I actually have asked Chris for over a week now for a full transcript of the movie, and I haven?t seen one.

LEHANE: And, Michael, did I provide you a transcript of this portion of the movie?

ISIKOFF: A full transcript of the movie would be helpful on this issue.

LEHANE: But did I provide you a transcript of the portion of the movie that you are writing about?

ISIKOFF: You provided me some?a partial transcript of the movie.

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: And did you write in your story that Michael Moore stated in his movie that flights left while federal airspace was closed, yes or no?

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: Simple question.

(CROSSTALK)

ISIKOFF: As I told you, when we see the full transcript, we will

respond as to whether or not

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Hold on, Chris. Let me ask the questions.

Will you provide Michael Isikoff and will you provide us a full transcript of this movie?

LEHANE: You can come to us whenever you want about any single fact that you want.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: No, no. Answer the question.

ISIKOFF: He?s not answering the question.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Will you provide a transcript?

ISIKOFF: Full transcript, full transcript.

LEHANE: You come to me with any issue that you have and I?ll go over it with you.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Chris Lehane, will you provide us a full transcript, yes or no?

LEHANE: As I provided Michael Isikoff when he asked, I provided the transcript of the issue that he was looking at.

SCARBOROUGH: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: And Michael still hasn?t answered my question.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, thank you so much. I am going to have to take that as a no.

Chris Lehane, thank you for being with us, David Sheff, and also Michael Isikoff. We appreciate it.

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rambler

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BustIt
You need to read something besides the Guardian Dig.

The 9/11 commission agrees that there is ample evidence of ties between Al-Quaeda and Saddam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I asked:

How many newsources agree with that statement besides FOX and MSNBC?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You responded:

I can't find anywhere in those two links where the 911Commission agrees there is ample evidence of ties between Al-Quaeda and Saddam.

Melody

If we're going to "diagnose" Moore, then we should certainly cite the psychopathy that runs rampant among "conservative" Republicans. These are just bullies who enjoy beating up on the weak and powerless. They're rich kids or wannabe rich kids, so they feel entitled. They put a political spin on it with their party.

We should also point out that six of those anti-Moore sites are registered to and run by members of Republican Outreach, which is a thinly veiled front organization for the GOP. It's all just BushSpeak in new bottles.

George Bush is a vile human being, as is clear from a thorough investigation of his background. He took out over 15 million dollars in Small Business Administration guaranteed loans (when his father was president) and never paid back a dime. What his brother and he did to the Savings and Loan industry is still being written about. This man destroys business left and right, then reaps a profit from being a bad businessman.

John Kerry is every bit the obnoxious, ethically compromised politician that George Bush is, HOWEVER, he scares me quite a bit less than does George Bush, so I'll be voting for Kerry. I wish I could vote my conscience this year, but I'm far too concerned about the ramifications for my nephew and other families members and friends of putting a chickenhawk with a stiffy bent for blood lust back in the Oval Office. This is NOT about what is "best for porn" and IS about what is best for my country, not to mention the world.

Those of you still debating the fine points of a film you haven't seen, I'd suggest reading a couple of the books that Moore has based his film on. The right-wing attack machine is hoping you won't, and will just swallow their invective because it makes you feel better. There's Moore-validating Nobel-laureate level research that will be VERY difficult for the Bushites to put down as "liberal leftist" BS.

Speaking of "lefties", did you know that researchers compiled a list of the belief systems of so-called conservatives versus so-called liberals and found that they BOTH fell into the socialist psychology paradigm. They BOTH believe in telling other people what to think, what to believe, and what to do. Meanwhile, the reasonable people are stuck in the center.

Here are a couple of titles for people who genuinely want to look beyond the "it's true/false because I agree with it" perspective.

It's this book that made my mind up about George Bush - his academic foundation is unquestionable. Like it or not, Unger knows of what he writes:

House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties by Craig Unger

Until the Republicans get rid of the far-right and the Bushes, and let back into the center flawed but more reasonable people, then there's no returning to the days of Barry Goldwater, when proud people of all walks of life could call themselves Republicans.

I know I had replies to my prior post and will get them to this one, but I can only check in here twice a day, so I hope this covers responses. To those who make personal attacks, you're not doing your "side" of things any service with them. They just make you look ignorant and petty. To those of you making reasoned responses, I bow to your Buddha nature and hope this covers your replies.

Tom_PMs

Nice post, Melody.

NBDesign

Instead of researching Michael Moore... Why not research what he said in the movie... that would make a little more sense.


geesh

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Kingfish

This is the part I am talking about. Lost in the Cosstalk is Mr. Isikoff nodding his head sheepisly when asked by if he may have misquoted the movie. You also see the part where he tried to blame his mistake on Moore for not providing him a transcript.

One thing, I actually have asked Chris for over a week now for a full transcript of the movie, and I haven?t seen one.

LEHANE: And, Michael, did I provide you a transcript of this portion of the movie?

ISIKOFF: A full transcript of the movie would be helpful on this issue.

LEHANE: But did I provide you a transcript of the portion of the movie that you are writing about?

ISIKOFF: You provided me some?a partial transcript of the movie.

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: And did you write in your story that Michael Moore stated in his movie that flights left while federal airspace was closed, yes or no?

(CROSSTALK)

LEHANE: Simple question.

(CROSSTALK)

ISIKOFF: As I told you, when we see the full transcript, we will

respond as to whether or not

(CROSSTALK)

Head

I will add one thing:
Remember that Bush was NOT Elected! The right that Americans Died for he shit on!!
And that was just the begining!

__________________

sperbonzo

You lefties are so cute with that issue.....

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jimmyf

don't know if anyone has post it yet ?

Fehrenheit 911

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

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Basic_man

More drama!

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Tala

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