Democracy, the only chance for the Middle East? - GoFuckYourself.com

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 07:40 AM

Democracy, consensual governments, well-developed capital markets, western liberalism. These are the best chances to save a society that has lost it's way in the world of nations.

It's no accident that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are not WTO members.

When will the Middle East miracle happen?

polish_aristocrat · 06-23-2004, 07:47 AM

The Arab world is like Europe in the 15th century.
Only time can cause that religion will have less influence over there.

Jakke PNG · 06-23-2004, 07:53 AM

I also think electric fences around middle-east could work. Especially if all of their airports and harbors would get bombed too.

Theo · 06-23-2004, 07:55 AM

civil war is the only chance

directfiesta · 06-23-2004, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TeenGodFather
I also think electric fences around middle-east could work.

Hummmm. Maybe they would like that: would keep the " infidels " out!

cherrylula · 06-23-2004, 07:56 AM

As long as the US tries to convert everyone to christianity, we all lose.

Jakke PNG · 06-23-2004, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta
Hummmm. Maybe they would like that: would keep the " infidels " out!

That's what I thought too. Not to prevent them from leaving, but to preven us infidels entering.

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta
Hummmm. Maybe they would like that: would keep the " infidels " out!

That's exactly what the followers of Qutb and their kind want. They want to be disconnected from the word - free to live in their 7th century fantasyland.

tina2 · 06-23-2004, 08:12 AM

i think the biggest problem they have is religion. they cannot take apart religion from politics. they need a secular state.

i dont think that the solution is bombing them or invading them... that simply would make them more lunatics!!

Paul Waters · 06-23-2004, 08:13 AM

I have wondered why we, in the west, assume that democracy is something others value.

American history is filled with the slaughter of the undemocratic heathen native peoples.

Why must this be repeated in the middle east?

directfiesta · 06-23-2004, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tina2
i think the biggest problem they have is religion. they cannot take apart religion from politics.

LOL... sounds like America....

Quote:

Originally posted by tina2
they need a secular state.

They had one ... now it is fucked up and religion is on the up and coming... ( remember how proud Georgie was when the Shiites demonstrated in the street... He said sort of: look, theuy are free... what an idiot)

Quote:

Originally posted by tina2
i dont think that the solution is bombing them or invading them... that simply would make them more lunatics!!

Agreed. And BTW, I think it would make anybody more " lunatic" ....

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Waters
I have wondered why we, in the west, assume that democracy is something others value.

That's the same question people posed about the citizens of the Soviet Union throughout the whole Cold War. Statements such as "they obviously don't want Democracy. If they did, they would have it" were common and also - in the end - wrong.

The real answer to your question. Some do, some don't and some don't understand the question. In that big poll conducted last year inside Iraq, 60% of Baghdad residents said that a "European version" government would be acceptable. Only 17% said a goverment "like Saudi" would be acceptable. No one ever asks the basic question - how would you prefer your government to be chosen?

I think the question we should be asking is whether the world will be a better place if the holdout countries of the world who are ruled by nonconsensual governments at gunpoint and who have illiberal law systems and economic policies become democracies.

sperbonzo · 06-23-2004, 08:47 AM

The facts of history are totally plain. The ONLY places and times that have seen anything approaching peaceful co-existance have been counrties that are not only democracies, but also are trading with each other.

It has been proven over and over again that when people are free to chose their own goverment on a regular basis, and that they are doing business with their neighbors, then wars tend not to happen.

The only hope that the middle east has is to go that route IMO, and the world is TOO small of a place these days to allow an area of medieval feudelism to fester and (inevitably) spill out into the rest of the planet.

smack · 06-23-2004, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
Democracy, consensual governments, well-developed capital markets, western liberalism. These are the best chances to save a society that has lost it's way in the world of nations.

It's no accident that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are not WTO members.

When will the Middle East miracle happen?

democracy is tyranny in the hands of the people. the correct answer is the construct a constitutional republic.

51% of the people should not be alowed to dictate what the other 49% does.

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smack
democracy is tyranny in the hands of the people. the correct answer is the construct a constitutional republic.

51% of the people should not be alowed to dictate what the other 49% does.

your right... what they need is another Saddam Hussein. He also got 100% of the vote in the last election his government held.

polish_aristocrat · 06-23-2004, 08:55 AM

This thread reminds me i should be working now on my masters degree, lol.

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smack
democracy is tyranny in the hands of the people. the correct answer is the construct a constitutional republic.

51% of the people should not be alowed to dictate what the other 49% does.

There is no direct democracy at the level of nations anywhere in the world. I assumed most people understand "democracy" to mean a pretty wide range of representational governments.

Shok · 06-23-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
your right... what they need is another Saddam Hussein. He also got 100% of the vote in the last election his government held.

baaaaahhhh

holy shit you make me laugh sometimes

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
He also got 100% of the vote in the last election his government held.

I think it says something that dictators try to make their countries look like democracies.

directfiesta · 06-23-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smack
51% of the people should not be alowed to dictate what the other 49% does.

So in your opinion, what would be the " proper acceptable" figure?

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 09:04 AM

What you find over and over again when dictatorships seize power is that they ban elections and outlaw dissent. In which countries ruled by dictatorships is one permitted to publicly criticize their government?

Look at what happened in the USSR. it took a whole 6 years from glasnost until the Communists were out of power.

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 09:05 AM

Incidentally, with the advent of the internet it becomes feasible that one day there could be direct democracies.

Garou · 06-23-2004, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
That's the same question people posed about the citizens of the Soviet Union throughout the whole Cold War. Statements such as "they obviously don't want Democracy. If they did, they would have it" were common and also - in the end - wrong.

You are far away from the truth when You say that

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
I think it says something that dictators try to make their countries look like democracies.

hahaha!

good point!

Garou · 06-23-2004, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sperbonzo

It has been proven over and over again that when people are free to chose their own goverment on a regular basis, and that they are doing business with their neighbors, then wars tend not to happen.

wrong. not much correlation at all between trade and piece

Tom_PMs · 06-23-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

When will the Middle East miracle happen?

Probably when the Saudi's get off the fence and fall on one side or the other. They walk the line better than anyone.

M_M · 06-23-2004, 09:18 AM

The only chance is education.

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:19 AM

why do you care?

they shall do their own thing..

mardigras · 06-23-2004, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
your right... what they need is another Saddam Hussein. He also got 100% of the vote in the last election his government held.

You know, that makes me think about what Bush recently said about it's being Iraq's choice if they wanted to bring Sadr into the government, the reason being he has a support base over there. I think if an honest poll were conducted you'd still find a large Saddam support base, if so it's only fair he gets on the ballot too...

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Garou
wrong. not much correlation at all between trade and piece

Which Democracies in the 20th century that were big trading partners have gone to war directly against each other?

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
they shall do their own thing..

haha.

too late for that my friend. you are aware that there is an invention called "news" and with this invention you can keep up with current events such as things like "war", "invasion", "bombing' and "occupation"?

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mardigras
You know, that makes me think about what Bush recently said about it's being Iraq's choice if they wanted to bring Sadr into the government, the reason being he has a support base over there. I think if an honest poll were conducted you'd still find a large Saddam support base, if so it's only fair he gets on the ballot too...

Give peace in Iraq a chance!

FREE SADDAM!

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
haha.

too late for that my friend. you are aware that there is an invention called "news" and with this invention you can keep up with current events such as other things as "war", "invasion", "bombing' and "occupation"?

yeah its really too late... but we've to think about WHY terror exists.. they've a reason... i don't think they all want to die for fun...

why do they hate america / europe etc?
somebody said.. hey wassup its a lame day.. what about we're hating some countries... ?

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
why do they hate america / europe etc?

We're not Muslims.

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
yeah its really too late... but we've to think about WHY terror exists.. they've a reason... i don't think they all want to die for fun...

why do they hate america / europe etc?
somebody said.. hey wassup its a lame day.. what about we're hating some countries... ?

why?

why?

why?

why did a bunch of thugs in about the 6th century suddenly decide to follow a little respected flake who was run out of Mecca and start slashing, hacking and murdering their way through most of europe to spread "the truth"

who cares?

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
We're not Muslims.

some of my friends are muslims.. and they're living next door...
np with that... most of them are cool.. its just a religion.. nothing different..

god is called allah and they don't eat pig...

some of them are in america.. running restaurants, paying taxes ( that are spend for stupid wars) ..

Tom_PMs · 06-23-2004, 09:33 AM

Just put up windmill's and other energy producing items on your homes, and get some alternate fuel vehicles. Beat the rush.
Your kids will thank you, hehe.

Bonus: In many states, the prevailing electrical company is required to purchase all of your surplus energy.

off topic? I doubt it

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
its just a religion.. nothing different..

uh.. well.. its just a religion except for the "behead all the infidels", "your duty is to die in Jihad" and "you will be greeted in paradise by a gaggle of virgins to fullfil your every erotic desire" parts.

ADL Colin · 06-23-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
some of my friends are muslims.. and they're living next door... np with that... most of them are cool.. its just a religion.. nothing different..

Muslims living in a Democracy. See!

iFliPcEss · 06-23-2004, 09:35 AM

In my opinion, I think we gotta respect each others custom, beliefs, traditions & religions and things will be okay... the key word RESPECT

Shok · 06-23-2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
some of my friends are muslims.. and they're living next door...
np with that... most of them are cool.. its just a religion.. nothing different..

sleeper cell

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
why?

why?

why?

why did a bunch of thugs in about the 6th century suddenly decide to follow a little respected flake who was run out of Mecca and start slashing, hacking and murdering their way through most of europe to spread "the truth"

who cares?

catholics, christs jews did the same...

catholics went over to africa and killed lots of ppl to tell them the "truth"..

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by iFliPcEss
In my opinion, I think we gotta respect each others custom, beliefs, traditions & religions and things will be okay... the key word RESPECT

historically, it's people like you that get slaughtered.

cherrylula · 06-23-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
yeah its really too late... but we've to think about WHY terror exists.. they've a reason... i don't think they all want to die for fun...

Greed, and religion used as a scapegoat. And when people are miserable enough they do extreme things.

Fuck the afterlife.

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
uh.. well.. its just a religion except for the "behead all the infidels", "your duty is to die in Jihad" and "you will be greeted in paradise by a gaggle of virgins to fullfil your every erotic desire" parts.

please ask a "real muslim" if this is true...

i think you read the "jihad koran" not the real one..

killing is bad...
thats what you find in the bible, koran and other

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
catholics, christs jews did the same...

catholics went over to africa and killed lots of ppl to tell them the "truth"..

exactly!

and the answer to your original question is... "why" is irrelevent.

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
please ask a "real muslim" if this is true...

i think you read the "jihad koran" not the real one..

killing is bad...
thats what you find in the bible, koran and other

ok... you find me Muslims that define themselves as "real Muslims" and "not real Muslims" and i will happily interview them.

Nanda · 06-23-2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by polish_aristocrat
The Arab world is like Europe in the 15th century.
Only time can cause that religion will have less influence over there.

Exactly!

Corleone · 06-23-2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
ok... you find me Muslims that define themselves as "real Muslims" and "not real Muslims" and i will happily interview them.

i doubt you ever talked to or met a muslim..

muslim is a word your heard in the anti muslim news... they're all bad, sitting in the corner when the sun goes down... black hair.. knifes in the hand... machine guns in the other and waiting to jump on you when you walk by...

Pleasurepays · 06-23-2004, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corleone
i doubt you ever talked to or met a muslim..

muslim is a word your heard in the anti muslim news... they're all bad, sitting in the corner when the sun goes down... black hair.. knifes in the hand... machine guns in the other and waiting to jump on you when you walk by...

ok... some basic math for the statistically challenged such as yourself.. Islam has about 1,500,000,000 followers worldwide. statistically, it is impossible not to know any or speak to any or believe that they all have a knife in one hand and machine gun in the other as you put it - unless you are living under a rock or can't seem to pry yourself away from the 24hr NASCAR channel.

i noticed you ran out of arguements

06-23-2004, 07:40 AM	#1
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Democracy, the only chance for the Middle East? Democracy, consensual governments, well-developed capital markets, western liberalism. These are the best chances to save a society that has lost it's way in the world of nations. It's no accident that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are not WTO members. When will the Middle East miracle happen? __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

06-23-2004, 07:47 AM	#2
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	The Arab world is like Europe in the 15th century. Only time can cause that religion will have less influence over there. __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

06-23-2004, 07:53 AM	#3
Jakke PNG ex-TeenGodFather Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suomi Finland Perkele Posts: 20,306	I also think electric fences around middle-east could work. Especially if all of their airports and harbors would get bombed too. __________________ ..and I'm off.

06-23-2004, 08:12 AM	#9
tina2 Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: everywhere Posts: 238	i think the biggest problem they have is religion. they cannot take apart religion from politics. they need a secular state. i dont think that the solution is bombing them or invading them... that simply would make them more lunatics!! __________________

06-23-2004, 08:13 AM	#10
Paul Waters Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 4,402	I have wondered why we, in the west, assume that democracy is something others value. American history is filled with the slaughter of the undemocratic heathen native peoples. Why must this be repeated in the middle east? __________________ Paul

06-23-2004, 07:55 AM	#4
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	civil war is the only chance

06-23-2004, 07:56 AM	#6
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	As long as the US tries to convert everyone to christianity, we all lose.

06-23-2004, 08:47 AM	#13
sperbonzo I'd rather be on my boat. Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 9,748	The facts of history are totally plain. The ONLY places and times that have seen anything approaching peaceful co-existance have been counrties that are not only democracies, but also are trading with each other. It has been proven over and over again that when people are free to chose their own goverment on a regular basis, and that they are doing business with their neighbors, then wars tend not to happen. The only hope that the middle east has is to go that route IMO, and the world is TOO small of a place these days to allow an area of medieval feudelism to fester and (inevitably) spill out into the rest of the planet. __________________ Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/ ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

06-23-2004, 08:55 AM	#16
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	This thread reminds me i should be working now on my masters degree, lol. __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

06-23-2004, 09:04 AM	#21
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	What you find over and over again when dictatorships seize power is that they ban elections and outlaw dissent. In which countries ruled by dictatorships is one permitted to publicly criticize their government? Look at what happened in the USSR. it took a whole 6 years from glasnost until the Communists were out of power. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

06-23-2004, 09:05 AM	#22
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Incidentally, with the advent of the internet it becomes feasible that one day there could be direct democracies. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

06-23-2004, 09:18 AM	#27
M_M Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,167	The only chance is education.

06-23-2004, 09:19 AM	#28
Corleone C.R.E.A.M Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,262	why do you care? they shall do their own thing..

06-23-2004, 09:33 AM	#37
Tom_PMs Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 2,049	Just put up windmill's and other energy producing items on your homes, and get some alternate fuel vehicles. Beat the rush. Your kids will thank you, hehe. Bonus: In many states, the prevailing electrical company is required to purchase all of your surplus energy. off topic? I doubt it

06-23-2004, 09:35 AM	#40
iFliPcEss Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,087	In my opinion, I think we gotta respect each others custom, beliefs, traditions & religions and things will be okay... the key word RESPECT