So Spain gets a little payback for supporting Bush's fake little war - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

obviously you don't live in a country that has been bullied into standing 'shoulder to shoulder'

oh, and I guess you believe you do?

Sarah_Jayne · 03-14-2004, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

oh, and I guess you believe you do?

believe what? that countires have been bullied. Yeah, I live in one of those countries. I am sure there are others here who live in countries that have also been bullied.

DarkJedi · 03-14-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

who's paying spain back again, moron? Iraq was it?

apparentely, Al Quaida got pissed off and used it as an exuse, tard.

CDSmith · 03-14-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
believe what? that countires have been bullied. Yeah, I live in one of those countries. I am sure there are others here who live in countries that have also been bullied.

Yeah, like Kuwait.

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

wait, I'm confused.

That's no news...

Sarah_Jayne · 03-14-2004, 09:15 AM

that said, the UK isn't nearly as bullied as other 'smaller' (weight wise) countries. Living on the doorstep of those countries and being part of the European Union might make that more visable.

with us or against us weren't just words uttered in a speach. Regardless of if some people think that is part of a justified 'by any means necessary' method it is the truth.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

believe what? that countires have been bullied. Yeah, I live in one of those countries. I am sure there are others here who live in countries that have also been bullied.

Last I heard, you lived in england.
If you think England was bullied, its just a dopey opinion not based on fact.

and what exactly was the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?

Oracle Porn · 03-14-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkJedi

Israel is the root of all evil, so fuck off dipshit.

P.S.
Jews killed Jesus.

Yes we did! Got beef?

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkJedi

apparentely, Al Quaida got pissed off and used it as an exuse, tard.

got pissed off over what? their friends being ousted?

but there was no connection.

KRL · 03-14-2004, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
It's been what, a year since people started yelling that it's all about oil. Anyone know how much oil the US has raped out of Iraq since the war?

anyone?

Its not the oil. Its the price of oil which is now at $36 / barrel.

DarkJedi · 03-14-2004, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

got pissed off over what? their friends being ousted?

but there was no connection.

dude, you're confused

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkJedi

dude, you're confused

translation: my lies have caught up with me.

Sarah_Jayne · 03-14-2004, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
Yeah, like Kuwait.

and that has what to do with countries like Spain? Kuwait was something totally different and they feel a debt of gratitude so they fall in.

Look, in this thread I am not arguing the rights and wrong of the 'war' because frankly I wasn't totally against the war (even if I didn't like the reasons behind it all that much) and also that debate has been had before.

This is saying that one of 'allies' took one because we asked (or told...you decide) them to stand by us.

Now, for you all it might be a far away country but for some of us we had people we know who just missed blowing up. Remember 9/11? Well to a lot of people over here it feels like that right now.

So, snide comments and 'lets play with the idiot newbies that don't know enough not to argue back to 12clicks' attitude is going to piss people off. Worst terroist attack in Europe - EVER - so how about not being jackasses for a minute and giving a ounce of respect to the people that died.

I could play 'lets twist phrases' all day but frankly wether Al Queda was connected to iraq before or after is symantics. Just because there wasn't a connection doesn't mean we didn't create this situation.

People demand that parts of Europe kiss the feet of America all the time because of ww2. One nation just paid back a bit of that debt and people play 'asshole of the day' with it. Have fun.

Sarah_Jayne · 03-14-2004, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

and what exactly was the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?

trade tarrifs amongst other things including new visa regulations.

CDSmith · 03-14-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
and that has what to do with countries like Spain?

I don't know, you said "I'm sure other countries have been bullied" and I said "yeah, like Kuwait".

Yeesh.

03-14-2004, 09:29 AM

I hope Bush lose.

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

and what exactly was the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?

Cut your laughing smiley: you look like an old idiot....

Answer to your question:

Quote:

Secretary Powell:
And we're prepared to assist Bulgaria financially and in other ways to be a contributing member in the global war against terrorism.

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/...n/03051504.htm

PS: USA gov site, in case you try to make it " a pot smoker, gay , "liberal" " democratic" website...

Roger · 03-14-2004, 09:35 AM

Spain helped a country take over another one and they paid for it. It's nothing new.

DarkJedi · 03-14-2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Xe
I hope Bush lose.

Kerry is a jew

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

and that has what to do with countries like Spain? Kuwait was something totally different and they feel a debt of gratitude so they fall in.

Look, in this thread I am not arguing the rights and wrong of the 'war' because frankly I wasn't totally against the war (even if I didn't like the reasons behind it all that much) and also that debate has been had before.

This is saying that one of 'allies' took one because we asked (or told...you decide) them to stand by us.

And by saying it you are wrong. Spain "took one" because you euro-dopes all don't find terrorist to be a concern.
Spain "took one" for europe, not the US

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

Now, for you all it might be a far away country but for some of us we had people we know who just missed blowing up. Remember 9/11? Well to a lot of people over here it feels like that right now.

well, hopefully europe will realize we're all in this together and that its not US against terror and euro-pansies need not get involved.

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
So, snide comments and 'lets play with the idiot newbies that don't know enough not to argue back to 12clicks' attitude is going to piss people off. Worst terroist attack in Europe - EVER - so how about not being jackasses for a minute and giving a ounce of respect to the people that died.

This is about *YOU* not showing an ounce of respect for the people who died. Making your same old lame assed case about the US bullying, the US being wrong, Spain "taking one" for the US is nonsense and disrespectful.
Spain was attacked for doing what's right. The rest of europe should be ashamed, not asking the US to acknowledge Spain taking one for us. thats utter bullshit.

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
I could play 'lets twist phrases' all day but frankly wether Al Queda was connected to iraq before or after is symantics. Just because there wasn't a connection doesn't mean we didn't create this situation.

the truth always becomes symantics when waved in the face of a liberal.

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc
People demand that parts of Europe kiss the feet of America all the time because of ww2. One nation just paid back a bit of that debt and people play 'asshole of the day' with it. Have fun.

wrong. as usual

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger
Spain helped a country take over another one and they paid for it. It's nothing new.

Iraq bombed Spain?

where's your source?

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 12clicks

and what exactly was the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cut your laughing smiley: you look like an old idiot....

Answer to your question:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secretary Powell:
And we're prepared to assist Bulgaria financially and in other ways to be a contributing member in the global war against terrorism.

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol...un/03051504.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: USA gov site, in case you try to make it " a pot smoker, gay , "liberal" " democratic" website...

ahahahaha

only in the moronic mind of a directfiesta is,
"assist Bulgaria financially and in other ways to be a contributing member in the global war against terrorism." described as "the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?"

when the peanut gallery jumps to the keyboard, they aught to bring their brains.

Roger · 03-14-2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
Iraq bombed Spain?

where's your source?

No, Spain bombed Iraq and some people chose to take revenge. It's a vicious cycle.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sarah_webinc

trade tarrifs amongst other things including new visa regulations.

you're truly clueless.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

No, Spain bombed Iraq and some people chose to take revenge. It's a vicious cycle.

really, you talked to these people?
they told you they bombed Spain because of iraq?
you were a Dean supporter, right?

Kicker · 03-14-2004, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nicky
I think this years summer olympics are in danger.....

yep

Roger · 03-14-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
really, you talked to these people?
they told you they bombed Spain because of iraq?
you were a Dean supporter, right?

Your way of thinking is no different than people in other countries who've fallen victim to terrorism. It's same old, same old to me, I used to be the same way to. You'll eventually get it.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

Your way of thinking is no different than people in other countries who've fallen victim to terrorism. It's same old, same old to me, I used to be the same way to. You'll eventually get it.

come back when you have an argument.
your version of the truth keeps changing to fit you position.
first there's no connection between iraq and al queda, now Spain is bombed over iraq by al queda.

oh, and I'm sure you NEVER used to be the same way.

spentrent · 03-14-2004, 10:11 AM

Bush I was a moron. He made it obvious that oil was his concern years ago by "encouraging" the Shi'ites to "rise up" against Saddam instead of chasing him into Baghdad. Then Saddam gets the clearance to gun down the Shi'ites. Where was the US then?
They had already secured their oil buddy and had no intention of "ousting Saddam," EVER.

Years pass; Bush II comes into power. It has been reported that his administration was planning a little party with Iraq BEFORE 9/11. It's about oil again. Not to mention INFRASTRUCTURE... blow shit up, pay your buds to build it back up. The same cabal of thirty people or so have been getting rich from bloated government contract pork since the late 70s.

Outright lies in speech after speech. Hell, the nuclear Saddam thing was PULLED from a speech that PRECEDED the state of the union address, due to the intelligence folks -- in the US and the rest of the fucking global intel community -- calling it bad data.

Wake up fuckers.

Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Co. decided long ago that the US needed a strong military presence in the middle east. Iraq was the best place to fudge a little to convince the unwashed masses.

And whattaya know, here we are, unwashed and stoopider than ever.

And CHRIST. ANY PRESIDENT would have attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. Bush has no more balls than any other politician who is happy to send OTHER PEOPLE's kids into the crossfire.

And don't play like this is a liberal vs conservative issue. It is NOT. Conservatives don't want to see their kiddies die in a useless quagmire any less than the liberals across the street. If you let the GOP marketing machine convince you otherwise, you have been SUBVERTED.

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

described as "the punishment of those who were bullied who still didn't support it?"

Simpler version for simple minds:

Countries critical of Iraq war:

France: The United States hints at trade sanctions, while the Pentagon withdraws aircraft and senior military brass from Paris Air Show.
Chile: A free trade agreement under negotiation, the first with a South American country, is postponed but still expected to be signed.
New Zealand: Anti-war comments by the prime minister have put a chill on hopes for a free trade agreement.
Syria: The United States has threatened trade sanctions if it continues to support terrorist organizations and shelter former Iraqi officials.

and:

Coalition-supporting countries:

Singapore: A free trade agreement lowering tariffs and quatos, the first with an Asian country, was signed last week and is expected to win approval in Congress.
Jordan: Under a free-trade agreement that's the first with a Muslim country, Jordanian companies are in a good position to get a piece of postwar reconstruction work in Iraq.
Australia: A proposed free trade agreement has been put on the fast track.
Great Britain: British companies are expected to get contracts for reconstruction work in postwar Iraq.

I will pass on the saying of the US ambassador to Canada.... Anyway, you obviously are getting dumber by the day. Wonder even how can this be possible ...

You will understand this at least:

Roger · 03-14-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
come back when you have an argument.
your version of the truth keeps changing to fit you position.
first there's no connection between iraq and al queda, now Spain is bombed over iraq by al queda.

oh, and I'm sure you NEVER used to be the same way.

Heuh? Are you claiming that there's a connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda wants to revenge the invasion of a Muslim country?

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spentrent

They had already secured their oil buddy and had no intention of "ousting Saddam," EVER.

Absolutely right ...

Quote:

Reasons Not to Invade Iraq,
by George Bush Sr.

Excerpt from "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam" by George Bush [Sr.] and Brent Scowhahahahaha, Time (2 March 1998):

While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

Simpler version for simple minds:

Countries critical of Iraq war:

France: The United States hints at trade sanctions, while the Pentagon withdraws aircraft and senior military brass from Paris Air Show.
Chile: A free trade agreement under negotiation, the first with a South American country, is postponed but still expected to be signed.
New Zealand: Anti-war comments by the prime minister have put a chill on hopes for a free trade agreement.
Syria: The United States has threatened trade sanctions if it continues to support terrorist organizations and shelter former Iraqi officials.

poor deluded child.
I notice you don't post the link for this info. ashamed of how liberal you had to go to find it?

your "facts" are a reach. "threatened" this, "postponed" that, wow, that's some real bullying there.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

Heuh? Are you claiming that there's a connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda wants to revenge the invasion of a Muslim country?

no, I'm claiming al queda picked Spain because it was pretty. :rolleyes:

spentrent · 03-14-2004, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

Long way to say "wouldn't be prudent?"

*edit* Also, a long way to say "no I swear, it wasn't about oil. No, really. I mean it. I have a legacy to think of, people; stop thinking about yourselves so much."

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

poor deluded child.
I notice you don't post the link for this info. ashamed of how liberal you had to go to find it?

your "facts" are a reach. "threatened" this, "postponed" that, wow, that's some real bullying there.

Where are your facts.
The only link you post is: http://www.12shitsisanidiot.com

Not really reliable.

Here is the link for your info. Read the whole thing if you still have an old vbrain cell left.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...esrewarded.htm

Roger · 03-14-2004, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
no, I'm claiming al queda picked Spain because it was pretty. :rolleyes:

Let me remind you that Al-Qaeda was volunteering to drive out the Iraqi forces from Kuwait at the time.

But hey keep making up your own facts, you probably even still believe the WMD stuff anyways.

Alex From San Diego · 03-14-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
Bush the puppet master of all the other countries.
its amazing you clowns can earn a living with that brain power.

12 Clicks, they can't earn a living, that is why they post such garbage.

You hear what Kerry's idea is to protect against terrorism?

He wants to implement see through cargo carriers to be able to see the contents....

Ya he sounds like a winner....the guy is a fucking ass.....lol

directfiesta · 03-14-2004, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex From San Diego

He wants to implement see through cargo carriers to be able to see the contents....

Ya he sounds like a winner....the guy is a fucking ass.....lol

Like 12Shits, : LINK????

Roger · 03-14-2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
its amazing you clowns can earn a living with that brain power.

I know guys who are much smarter than I am and who are making less than I do and guys who are a lot dumber than I am and are making more.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

Let me remind you that Al-Qaeda was volunteering to drive out the Iraqi forces from Kuwait at the time.

But hey keep making up your own facts, you probably even still believe the WMD stuff anyways.

can you post a fact I made up in this thread or is this just the straw you grasp at when you've lost the argument?

Roger, its ok to think al queda and iraq are the good guys.
its what makes you different from me.

TheSwed · 03-14-2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pornopete
I hope Bush wins.

I'm not American.

Me 2

we here in Europe have Bush and USA to thank for mutch

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

I know guys who are much smarter than I am and who are making less than I do and guys who are a lot dumber than I am and are making more.

it makes you no less amazing.

still searching this thread for my "made up facts" or did you chose this spot to run off?

Roger · 03-14-2004, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
can you post a fact I made up in this thread or is this just the straw you grasp at when you've lost the argument?

Roger, its ok to think al queda and iraq are the good guys.
its what makes you different from me.

Heuh? What facts are you talking about? I didn't read all your posts in this thread, so stop talking in codes and get to the point.

I don't think al-qaeda and Iraq are the good guys and I don't think that Bush is the good guy either. I'm no idiot. Everyone is guilty in this shit.

dicknixon · 03-14-2004, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks

poor deluded child.
I notice you don't post the link for this info. ashamed of how liberal you had to go to find it?

your "facts" are a reach. "threatened" this, "postponed" that, wow, that's some real bullying there.

I'm sorry, but 12Clicks, I can't help but read your posts in the voice of the fat comic book guy from the simpsons.

"poor deluded child . . .worst episode ever" . . .

And now, some beautful music from 12Clicks favorite administration:

http://bootyking.net/ash.html

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 11:00 AM

the point is you're not very bright when you post this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger
But hey keep making up your own facts, you probably even still believe the WMD stuff anyways.

and then when called on it, post this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger
euh? What facts are you talking about? I didn't read all your posts in this thread, so stop talking in codes and get to the point.

12clicks · 03-14-2004, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger

I don't think al-qaeda and Iraq are the good guys and I don't think that Bush is the good guy either. I'm no idiot. Everyone is guilty in this shit.

yes, child. Everyone is guilty.
we make the terrorists attack people.

hey, you have a good day figuring out how to post without using code.
I gotta go play. its sunday.

69pornlinks · 03-14-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spentrent
Bush I was a moron. He made it obvious that oil was his concern years ago by "encouraging" the Shi'ites to "rise up" against Saddam instead of chasing him into Baghdad. Then Saddam gets the clearance to gun down the Shi'ites. Where was the US then?
They had already secured their oil buddy and had no intention of "ousting Saddam," EVER.

Years pass; Bush II comes into power. It has been reported that his administration was planning a little party with Iraq BEFORE 9/11. It's about oil again. Not to mention INFRASTRUCTURE... blow shit up, pay your buds to build it back up. The same cabal of thirty people or so have been getting rich from bloated government contract pork since the late 70s.

Outright lies in speech after speech. Hell, the nuclear Saddam thing was PULLED from a speech that PRECEDED the state of the union address, due to the intelligence folks -- in the US and the rest of the fucking global intel community -- calling it bad data.

Wake up fuckers.

Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Co. decided long ago that the US needed a strong military presence in the middle east. Iraq was the best place to fudge a little to convince the unwashed masses.

And whattaya know, here we are, unwashed and stoopider than ever.

And CHRIST. ANY PRESIDENT would have attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. Bush has no more balls than any other politician who is happy to send OTHER PEOPLE's kids into the crossfire.

And don't play like this is a liberal vs conservative issue. It is NOT. Conservatives don't want to see their kiddies die in a useless quagmire any less than the liberals across the street. If you let the GOP marketing machine convince you otherwise, you have been SUBVERTED.

i enjoy these threads...

Roger · 03-14-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
the point is you're not very bright when you post this:

I thought you claimed that Al-Qaeda and Saddam had connections and then when I asked you if that's what you believe you came up with an unclear answer.

Roger · 03-14-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
yes, child. Everyone is guilty.
we make the terrorists attack people.

hey, I'm not the one who used to be friends with Saddam and Ben Laden.

03-14-2004, 09:15 AM	#56
Sarah_Jayne Now with more Jayne Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 40,077	that said, the UK isn't nearly as bullied as other 'smaller' (weight wise) countries. Living on the doorstep of those countries and being part of the European Union might make that more visable. with us or against us weren't just words uttered in a speach. Regardless of if some people think that is part of a justified 'by any means necessary' method it is the truth.

03-14-2004, 09:29 AM	#66
Alex Xe Guest Posts: n/a	I hope Bush lose.

03-14-2004, 09:35 AM	#68
Roger Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MetroCity Posts: 3,181	Spain helped a country take over another one and they paid for it. It's nothing new.

03-14-2004, 10:11 AM	#79
spentrent Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: LA Posts: 876	Bush I was a moron. He made it obvious that oil was his concern years ago by "encouraging" the Shi'ites to "rise up" against Saddam instead of chasing him into Baghdad. Then Saddam gets the clearance to gun down the Shi'ites. Where was the US then? They had already secured their oil buddy and had no intention of "ousting Saddam," EVER. Years pass; Bush II comes into power. It has been reported that his administration was planning a little party with Iraq BEFORE 9/11. It's about oil again. Not to mention INFRASTRUCTURE... blow shit up, pay your buds to build it back up. The same cabal of thirty people or so have been getting rich from bloated government contract pork since the late 70s. Outright lies in speech after speech. Hell, the nuclear Saddam thing was PULLED from a speech that PRECEDED the state of the union address, due to the intelligence folks -- in the US and the rest of the fucking global intel community -- calling it bad data. Wake up fuckers. Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Co. decided long ago that the US needed a strong military presence in the middle east. Iraq was the best place to fudge a little to convince the unwashed masses. And whattaya know, here we are, unwashed and stoopider than ever. And CHRIST. ANY PRESIDENT would have attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. Bush has no more balls than any other politician who is happy to send OTHER PEOPLE's kids into the crossfire. And don't play like this is a liberal vs conservative issue. It is NOT. Conservatives don't want to see their kiddies die in a useless quagmire any less than the liberals across the street. If you let the GOP marketing machine convince you otherwise, you have been SUBVERTED.