CCbill - Next Processor to go under. - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

DatingGold · 02-19-2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by integrated

that sir is LIBEL

it's only LIBEL it it's not true

Im not saying its true though

AaronM · 02-19-2004, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SleazyDream
i havn't sceen any indication of problems????

151 people who can't spell the word "seen" correctly.

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:31 AM

From what I have researched, the adult BIZ accounts for less than 3% of VISA's total revenue.

and that 3% accounts for over 90% of the fraud..

We are a pain in the ass for them.. CCBILL, IBILL, EPOCH, etc make it much better for VISA to manage that fraud instead of spreading it out over 20+ 3rd party billers and umpteen merchant accounts.

The only problem I have with ccbill is with the cookies ccbill sends me too just like lightspeed, they are too damn good and screw up my diet regiments :-)

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

151 people sho can't spell the word "seen" correctly.

or "haven't" ;)

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by s0laris2
From what I have researched, the adult BIZ accounts for less than 3% of VISA's total revenue.

and that 3% accounts for over 90% of the fraud..

We are a pain in the ass for them.. CCBILL, IBILL, EPOCH, etc make it much better for VISA to manage that fraud instead of spreading it out over 20+ 3rd party billers and umpteen merchant accounts.

The only problem I have with ccbill is with the cookies ccbill sends me too just like lightspeed, they are too damn good and screw up my diet regiments :-)

i don't know what you've heard or where you've done your research, but the online adult business does not account for 90% of credit card fraud. not even 90% of online credit card fraud.

SleazyDream · 02-19-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

i don't know what you've heard or where you've done your research, but the online adult business does not account for 90% of credit card fraud. not even 90% of online credit card fraud.

also to even utter that online adult is 3 perent of visa business is just foolish

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:38 AM

I got my information from Visa Royal Bank when I had a merchant account that I used for my sites Prior to Moneris taking over and dealing the death blow to us Canadians.

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:42 AM

Sleazy think about it your self!

Look at your VISA bill. add up your ADULT subscription transactions and devide that by your total visa bill.

For me its less than .01% of my transactions for the entire year

Now take the other 100's of Millions of cards holders who NEVER pay for porn online and those who do.

In order to be more than 3% that would mean a good percentage of everyone pays for porn online

The math doesnt add up. Visa could not care less

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by s0laris2
I got my information from Visa Royal Bank when I had a merchant account that I used for my sites Prior to Moneris taking over and dealing the death blow to us Canadians.

i work for Visa in a Canadian bank. i can tell you that the 90% number is dead wrong.

when someone steals or clones a credit card, they do not go out and max the card on porn sites. they buy goods that can be fenced.

a $1K computer purchased fraudulently is the equivalent of of 50 $20 porn memberships purchased fraudulently.

we recently lost $25K CDN on one single fraud case a few weeks ago. not a single transaction involved online porn.

AWW - Kevin · 02-19-2004, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SleazyDream

also to even utter that online adult is 3 perent of visa business is just foolish

be more like .3% if that

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by s0laris2
Sleazy think about it your self!

Look at your VISA bill. add up your ADULT subscription transactions and devide that by your total visa bill.

For me its less than .01% of my transactions for the entire year

Now take the other 100's of Millions of cards holders who NEVER pay for porn online and those who do.

In order to be more than 3% that would mean a good percentage of everyone pays for porn online

The math doesnt add up. Visa could not care less

actually, he was saying that adult online accounts for less than 3% of Visa's business.

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:49 AM

ahh yes.. I agree, we are just a thorn in visa's ass.

CCBILL. IBILL, EPHOCH are doing all they can to not piss of VISA and lose it for all of us. Eventually I think we will lose cc processing, but there will ALWAYS be a need for our services
and people will pay in one for or another..

things that come to mind:

1: Sms billing (I think that will be the biggest player soon)
2: Better online debit systems
3: Faster and more accurate check clearing systems
4: Web900 type phone systems that extend past north america
5: Duocash looks interesting. They could start a new type of system

Point is there will be other forms of money collecting that will get better as time goes on..

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

i work for Visa in a Canadian bank. i can tell you that the 90% number is dead wrong.

when someone steals or clones a credit card, they do not go out and max the card on porn sites. they buy goods that can be fenced.

a $1K computer purchased fraudulently is the equivalent of of 50 $20 porn memberships purchased fraudulently.

we recently lost $25K CDN on one single fraud case a few weeks ago. not a single transaction involved online porn.

I believe you! This is what Moneris told me 3 years ago when I lost the ability to use my merchant account :-(
Maybe 3 years ago porn fraud was at its peak..

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by s0laris2

I believe you! This is what Moneris told me 3 years ago when I lost the ability to use my merchant account :-(
Maybe 3 years ago porn fraud was at its peak..

Even at it's peak, I don't think online porn fraud would account for 90% of credit card fraud. That is, unless we're talking solely about online fraud, and about the amount of fraud cases as opposed to an actual dollar amount.

s0laris2 · 02-19-2004, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

Even at it's peak, I don't think online porn fraud would account for 90% of credit card fraud. That is, unless we're talking solely about online fraud, and about the amount of fraud cases as opposed to an actual dollar amount.

Yes, not dollar amounts. Non Signature transactions.

But since you work there, one thing I do not undertand is...

Visa Takes the money from the fraudulent charge back out of my merchant back account.

Then they charge me a charge back fee..

It seems to me they MADE money from a chargeback/Fraud

more so in the case of chargebacks.. I could see where fraud they would have to eat the charges

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 01:01 AM

The money taken out of your merchant account was first put in your merchant account. A credit and a debit cancel each other out.

As for the fees, Visa's employees do not work for free and Visa does not get office supplies for free. That's just two of the reasons why there are fees associated with chargebacks.

StuartD · 02-19-2004, 01:05 AM

Is this thread still going on?

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MaskedMan
Is this thread still going on?

nope... it ended on page 2. the rest is just egg on your face.

StuartD · 02-19-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

nope... it ended on page 2. the rest is just egg on your face.

grab a brain son

TurboTrucker · 02-19-2004, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

151 people who can't spell the word "seen" correctly.

I haven't sawed any problems with them other than the fact that their new stats are slow as fuck.

quiet · 02-19-2004, 01:47 AM

enjoyable.

4Pics · 02-19-2004, 02:03 AM

what a waste, was lookin to see why he thinks ccbill is next, but I see no real hints.

JulianSosa · 02-19-2004, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4Pics
what a waste, was lookin to see why he thinks ccbill is next, but I see no real hints.

ALL 3rd party billing ends in June. Its been said 100 times

JulianSosa · 02-19-2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JulianSosa

ALL 3rd party billing ends in June. Its been said 100 times

Recururing 3rd party adult I mean .
Sorry

Shoplifter · 02-19-2004, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JulianSosa

ALL 3rd party billing ends in June. Its been said 100 times

This is the first time I've heard it. Other than the vague "Ides of March" stuff that everyone posts.

SomeCreep · 02-19-2004, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lensman
I can't imagine CCBill going anywhere. Sometimes Hooper thinks out loud.

Bingo

Trax · 02-19-2004, 03:02 AM

assumptions blah blah

feelings blah blah

bullshit blah blah

graphicsbytia · 02-19-2004, 03:22 AM

Well.. I read the whole thread.. all 4 pages.. that's a lot of pages to read and not see anything to support your comments Hooper.. you're a nice guy, but it seems to me that the only purpose of this thread is to harm CCBill in some way for whatever reasons you have .. I dunno.. it just seems that if you had something concrete, you would have said it by now.. what you're doing is not fair.. making predictions about them going down, and not giving them anything to refute..

RichC · 02-19-2004, 03:49 AM

dumb thread....

power to the Paradise Valley Porn Mafia

goBigtime · 02-19-2004, 03:52 AM

Hoopers thread makes me ask Who bought Ibill?

davidd · 02-19-2004, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by integrated

hmm i think the maximum amount visa processors allow is 250k per month so you might have some miss guided information

$250K limit? Dude, you have no clue.

How could anyone survive only being able to process $250K a month?

-dd

Wizzo · 02-19-2004, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AWW - Kevin

be more like .3% if that

Actually, I think that is pretty close but that's Porn total, not just internet...

However, a 1/3 of percent of somones biz won't even be noticed...

JFK · 02-19-2004, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lightspeed

I have noticed a problem with CCbill's handling of cookies.... they keep sending them to me at Christmas and I'm already fat enough!

(keepin it light)

Steve Lightspeed

You and me both

Validus · 02-19-2004, 07:52 AM

Oh people, I really don?t try to involve myself or comment on these type of issues. Who ever says that CCBill will go out of business within the next 12 months, really doesn?t know CCBill and their team.

JFK · 02-19-2004, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

i work for Visa in a Canadian bank. i can tell you that the 90% number is dead wrong.

when someone steals or clones a credit card, they do not go out and max the card on porn sites. they buy goods that can be fenced.

a $1K computer purchased fraudulently is the equivalent of of 50 $20 porn memberships purchased fraudulently.

we recently lost $25K CDN on one single fraud case a few weeks ago. not a single transaction involved online porn.

So Let me ask you , Are you posting from your day job now ??

scoreman · 02-19-2004, 08:31 AM

Four pages of hysteria and speculation.

The only issue Hooper brings up that has validity is that you want your processor to be run by conservative Bankers. Those processors that attend shows and get totally shitfaced make me wonder where does the poor judgement end? I do agree with Sleazy that taking a hit off of a joint at a party doesnt mean they sit during the week stoned, making decisions on how to process, but cocaine is a different thing. Thats a drug that is serious bad news, and better people than you and I have been unable to stop a slide into complete criminal conduct because of that drug.

I really hope your wrong Hooper. If CCBill were to fail, the financial agony and misery would affect everyone who makes a living in the adult internet industry.

Hooper · 02-19-2004, 08:41 AM

I think the main effect that this thread has had has been opening people's eyes to the fact that you can NOT have all of your eggs in one basket... whatever that basket may be.

For example.

if CCBill went under on May 31st. I'd be just fine. They account for less than 2% of our processing.

if Other CC processors went under, it'd sting more... but there are always our own merchant accounts.

if we lost all of our merchant processing, it'd sting even more.. but there are always our checks (and the recurring) that we process through http://www.achdebit.com .... the best in the check biz. if you're not using them. you're leaving $$$ on the table.

If checks went under... it would hurt... but we're involved in nonadult and make more money there than from adult...

If the internet went down... it would hurt... but i've got a very successful brick & mortar business who's only problem is too much demand for our products.

Can you say the same thing?

I've been absolutely SHOCKED at how many people (even sizable programs) have been contacting me asking me what i KNOW because they are 100% ccbill... my only response to them was that i DO know something that you don't, and that they should *GO SIGN UP AT PAYCOM where i personally think you'll make more $ and send 50% of your new joins there so that you're protected!*

After all... who knows what will happen on May 31st?

Peaches · 02-19-2004, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
if we lost all of our merchant processing, it'd sting even more.. but there are always our checks (and the recurring) that we process through http://www.achdebit.com .... the best in the check biz. if you're not using them. you're leaving $$$ on the table.

Thanks, Hoop

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me!

Tera · 02-19-2004, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by integrated
the big question is when will visa/master card go out of business?

adult industry is the biggest revenue streams for them so if they cut us off they will go down too

Visa and Mastercard have been around way longer then the adult indsutry, I would be quite suprised to see if we went down, they went down. They have a lot bigger revenue streams then us I would think.

Ian · 02-19-2004, 08:59 AM

I gotta say Hooper that I haven't read much in the way of concrete reasoning in this thread on why you think CCBill is going down. Pretty vague stuff.

Ray@TastyDollars · 02-19-2004, 09:07 AM

No response from CCbill yet? Or any other 3rd party at that. hmm

Peaches · 02-19-2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray
No response from CCbill yet? Or any other 3rd party at that. hmm

You're just reading the wrong board.

taboo_dude · 02-19-2004, 09:39 AM

Concerning the fraud by adult sites, online auctions are by far the most fraudulent activity on the net today. Here is a source, but this is not the only source, they were several.

http://www.fraud.org/2002intstats.htm

It's also 2 years old, but I don't think it has changed that much. They are stating 90% of the online fraud is done through auctions.

The reason I'm bring this up is, think about it. What are they doing on that side of the market in order to curb it. Have you seen them make a statement like "If you own a ebay store your CB rate can be no higher than 1%"

Why is this? In business your first concern is to find out where you are losing money and fix it, but Visa and Mastercard are more worried about the "assocation" with the adult industry rather than where they are really losing money..... things that make you go hmmmmm. Sorry don't mean to hijake or thread or anything, but I never looked up the numbers until just now and realized that it is not adult sites that is the biggest contibutor to online fraud.

Ray@TastyDollars · 02-19-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peaches

You're just reading the wrong board.

Ofthen times I really think I am. Link me on ICQ if you like.

thx

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFK

So Let me ask you , Are you posting from your day job now ??

I usually work Monday-Friday, 12-8, but I'm on leave of absence right now. GFY is banned by our HR dept at work ;)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tera

Visa and Mastercard have been around way longer then the adult indsutry, I would be quite suprised to see if we went down, they went down. They have a lot bigger revenue streams then us I would think.

I hope you mean they've been around longer than the online adult industry. Because porn was around before credit cards...

tony286 · 02-19-2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by taboo_dude
Concerning the fraud by adult sites, online auctions are by far the most fraudulent activity on the net today. Here is a source, but this is not the only source, they were several.

http://www.fraud.org/2002intstats.htm

It's also 2 years old, but I don't think it has changed that much. They are stating 90% of the online fraud is done through auctions.

The reason I'm bring this up is, think about it. What are they doing on that side of the market in order to curb it. Have you seen them make a statement like "If you own a ebay store your CB rate can be no higher than 1%"

Why is this? In business your first concern is to find out where you are losing money and fix it, but Visa and Mastercard are more worried about the "assocation" with the adult industry rather than where they are really losing money..... things that make you go hmmmmm. Sorry don't mean to hijake or thread or anything, but I never looked up the numbers until just now and realized that it is not adult sites that is the biggest contibutor to online fraud.

Your right I just read a article on a fbi site, auctions are number one in fraud by a big margin. We are probably number one in friendly fraud lol.

psyko514 · 02-19-2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404

Your right I just read a article on a fbi site, auctions are number one in fraud by a big margin. We are probably number one in friendly fraud lol.

Now we're talking simply fraud, and not just credit card fraud.
If we look at the list that taboo_dude posted, we see that although online auctions accounted for 90% of online fraud, only 34% was paid with credit cards.

The list also seems to be talking about fraud where the victim is a surfer rather than a company or a credit card issuer. It doesn't account for friendly fraud against merchants, or credit card fraud where the issuer or acquirer suffer the loss.

JMM · 02-19-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
i'm just telling you that we're pulling our processing from them.

we pulled our processing from wsb about 3 months before they went under.

we pulled our processing from pswbilling about 2 months before they went under.

i'm not going to point fingers.

you should process wherever you feel most confident that you'll get your money.

Can you tell us who you are going with so that we can avoid them?

You seem to be the kiss of death!

sherie · 02-19-2004, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

I hope you mean they've been around longer than the online adult industry. Because porn was around before credit cards...

Well DUH LOL! Of course that what she means!

BradShaw · 02-19-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichC
dumb thread....

power to the Paradise Valley Porn Mafia

I hear they are big rivals of the Scottdale porn mafia.

02-19-2004, 12:31 AM	#153
s0laris2 Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 317	From what I have researched, the adult BIZ accounts for less than 3% of VISA's total revenue. and that 3% accounts for over 90% of the fraud.. We are a pain in the ass for them.. CCBILL, IBILL, EPOCH, etc make it much better for VISA to manage that fraud instead of spreading it out over 20+ 3rd party billers and umpteen merchant accounts. The only problem I have with ccbill is with the cookies ccbill sends me too just like lightspeed, they are too damn good and screw up my diet regiments :-) __________________

02-19-2004, 12:38 AM	#157
s0laris2 Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 317	I got my information from Visa Royal Bank when I had a merchant account that I used for my sites Prior to Moneris taking over and dealing the death blow to us Canadians. __________________

02-19-2004, 12:42 AM	#158
s0laris2 Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 317	Sleazy think about it your self! Look at your VISA bill. add up your ADULT subscription transactions and devide that by your total visa bill. For me its less than .01% of my transactions for the entire year Now take the other 100's of Millions of cards holders who NEVER pay for porn online and those who do. In order to be more than 3% that would mean a good percentage of everyone pays for porn online The math doesnt add up. Visa could not care less __________________

02-19-2004, 12:49 AM	#162
s0laris2 Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 317	ahh yes.. I agree, we are just a thorn in visa's ass. CCBILL. IBILL, EPHOCH are doing all they can to not piss of VISA and lose it for all of us. Eventually I think we will lose cc processing, but there will ALWAYS be a need for our services and people will pay in one for or another.. things that come to mind: 1: Sms billing (I think that will be the biggest player soon) 2: Better online debit systems 3: Faster and more accurate check clearing systems 4: Web900 type phone systems that extend past north america 5: Duocash looks interesting. They could start a new type of system Point is there will be other forms of money collecting that will get better as time goes on.. __________________

02-19-2004, 01:01 AM	#166
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	The money taken out of your merchant account was first put in your merchant account. A credit and a debit cancel each other out. As for the fees, Visa's employees do not work for free and Visa does not get office supplies for free. That's just two of the reasons why there are fees associated with chargebacks. __________________ Bad Girl Bucks - 50% Revshare through CCBill. Promote BrandyDDD, Pixie's Pillows, Action Allie and more! Phoenix Forum Pics \| Webmaster Access Montreal pics email: psyko514(a)gmail.com \| icq: 214-702-014

02-19-2004, 01:05 AM	#167
StuartD Sofa King Band Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Outside the box Posts: 29,903	Is this thread still going on? __________________ This is me on facebook This is me on twitter

02-19-2004, 01:47 AM	#171
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	enjoyable. __________________ we'll miss you our friend. RIP

02-19-2004, 02:03 AM	#172
4Pics Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 7,952	what a waste, was lookin to see why he thinks ccbill is next, but I see no real hints.

02-19-2004, 03:02 AM	#177
Trax [----------------------] Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,486	assumptions blah blah feelings blah blah bullshit blah blah

02-19-2004, 03:22 AM	#178
graphicsbytia Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,618	Well.. I read the whole thread.. all 4 pages.. that's a lot of pages to read and not see anything to support your comments Hooper.. you're a nice guy, but it seems to me that the only purpose of this thread is to harm CCBill in some way for whatever reasons you have .. I dunno.. it just seems that if you had something concrete, you would have said it by now.. what you're doing is not fair.. making predictions about them going down, and not giving them anything to refute..

02-19-2004, 03:49 AM	#179
RichC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: by ocean Posts: 368	dumb thread.... power to the Paradise Valley Porn Mafia __________________ I brought the flutes this time

02-19-2004, 03:52 AM	#180
goBigtime Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 7,761	Hoopers thread makes me ask Who bought Ibill?

02-19-2004, 07:52 AM	#184
Validus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 4,012	Oh people, I really don?t try to involve myself or comment on these type of issues. Who ever says that CCBill will go out of business within the next 12 months, really doesn?t know CCBill and their team.

02-19-2004, 08:31 AM	#186
scoreman Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,491	Four pages of hysteria and speculation. The only issue Hooper brings up that has validity is that you want your processor to be run by conservative Bankers. Those processors that attend shows and get totally shitfaced make me wonder where does the poor judgement end? I do agree with Sleazy that taking a hit off of a joint at a party doesnt mean they sit during the week stoned, making decisions on how to process, but cocaine is a different thing. Thats a drug that is serious bad news, and better people than you and I have been unable to stop a slide into complete criminal conduct because of that drug. I really hope your wrong Hooper. If CCBill were to fail, the financial agony and misery would affect everyone who makes a living in the adult internet industry. __________________ Last edited by scoreman; 02-19-2004 at 08:34 AM..

02-19-2004, 08:41 AM	#187
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	I think the main effect that this thread has had has been opening people's eyes to the fact that you can NOT have all of your eggs in one basket... whatever that basket may be. For example. if CCBill went under on May 31st. I'd be just fine. They account for less than 2% of our processing. if Other CC processors went under, it'd sting more... but there are always our own merchant accounts. if we lost all of our merchant processing, it'd sting even more.. but there are always our checks (and the recurring) that we process through http://www.achdebit.com .... the best in the check biz. if you're not using them. you're leaving $$$ on the table. If checks went under... it would hurt... but we're involved in nonadult and make more money there than from adult... If the internet went down... it would hurt... but i've got a very successful brick & mortar business who's only problem is too much demand for our products. Can you say the same thing? I've been absolutely SHOCKED at how many people (even sizable programs) have been contacting me asking me what i KNOW because they are 100% ccbill... my only response to them was that i DO know something that you don't, and that they should *GO SIGN UP AT PAYCOM where i personally think you'll make more $ and send 50% of your new joins there so that you're protected!* After all... who knows what will happen on May 31st? __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

02-19-2004, 08:59 AM	#190
Ian Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,259	I gotta say Hooper that I haven't read much in the way of concrete reasoning in this thread on why you think CCBill is going down. Pretty vague stuff.

02-19-2004, 09:07 AM	#191
Ray@TastyDollars www.TastyDollars.com Join Date: May 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 6,797	No response from CCbill yet? Or any other 3rd party at that. hmm __________________ The nets best interracial and cuckold site The nets hottest teen site ICQ me: 161 375 873

02-19-2004, 09:39 AM	#193
taboo_dude Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: TN Posts: 707	Concerning the fraud by adult sites, online auctions are by far the most fraudulent activity on the net today. Here is a source, but this is not the only source, they were several. http://www.fraud.org/2002intstats.htm It's also 2 years old, but I don't think it has changed that much. They are stating 90% of the online fraud is done through auctions. The reason I'm bring this up is, think about it. What are they doing on that side of the market in order to curb it. Have you seen them make a statement like "If you own a ebay store your CB rate can be no higher than 1%" Why is this? In business your first concern is to find out where you are losing money and fix it, but Visa and Mastercard are more worried about the "assocation" with the adult industry rather than where they are really losing money..... things that make you go hmmmmm. Sorry don't mean to hijake or thread or anything, but I never looked up the numbers until just now and realized that it is not adult sites that is the biggest contibutor to online fraud. __________________ If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow. The Duke.